Rossi Hate.

Gaz said:

Both can if repeated.





Actually the comments he made after the race are the critical component to it all as it was during these comments that he made admissions (if comments are reported correctly).

But how do you know with surety that he did not have a technical issue?

You do not by watching the telecast.

You can assume, and likely rightly assume but you do not know with surety and it is this surety you require to be able to initiate actions of a disqualification or other as to punish and then identify a just cause id more unfair and irreversible than is to not punish immediately and adjudicate after.




Big difference.

You acted in front of an on field adjudicator who could physically see your condition and emotions. You were not wearing a helmet and the adjudicator was not sitting in a tower where they generally do not have the public broadcast but rather rely on radio reports from officials placed around the track.

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But we knew he didn't have technical issues the moment he sped back up. And even if he had technical issues what the .... was he doing trying to effect Marquez because he had technical issues?

Despite the helmet his condition and emotions had clearly got the better of him given what he did and at worst he should've finished with the same amount of points as Marquez as I said. There was enough evidence to remove him from the track IMO given he had just gestured at Marquez before staring him down and attempting to run him off the track.

The official umpire never saw my actions as it was behind play but he assumed(correctly) what happened and thought it best to remove me from the game to let me either plead guilty or go to the tribuneral to decide a punishment. Removing one player from the field(at the time in junior AFL rules a red card meant you couldn't replace the player) can effect the entire team and one loss can mean no finals. Much like removing Rossi from the race would've meant no championship but safety is the most important aspect of any sport. If it wasn't in MotoGP, helmets would be optional, leathers would be optional, spine and chest protectors would be optional, brake guards etc but yet other riders and Rossi's own safety meant nothing to RD at the time.

Rossi's position in the championship should've had no effect on the decision when RD asked themselves is this man currently a danger to others or himself on the track. He had proven he was and should've been removed from the track. His helmet guy should've been given a lifetime ban for attempting to get to Marquez in the pit as well. All in all I think we can all agree that the entire situation was poorly handled by DORNA and race direction. So sure he calmed down and didn't do anything else stupid but what if he had? What if another rider was laying in hospital thanks to another move from Rossi and RD failing to removing him from the track?

I am a Marquez fan but if he did something similar to Rossi I would not argue with him being black flagged and cost a championship. He would deserve it and truthfully I would probably stop supporting him. I understand what you're saying about not having all the facts but do you believe if Marquez had done the same to Rossi the black flag wouldn't have (rightly) come out in a timely manner?

p4p1 said:

But we knew he didn't have technical issues the moment he sped back up. And even if he had technical issues what the .... was he doing trying to effect Marquez because he had technical issues?

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No, you suspected.

You could not know without the telemetry as it is not uncommon to see riders low and speed back up if they feel a vibration, have a brake fade issue and so forth ...........

p4p1 said:

Despite the helmet his condition and emotions had clearly got the better of him given what he did and at worst he should've finished with the same amount of points as Marquez as I said. There was enough evidence to remove him from the track IMO given he had just gestured at Marquez before staring him down and attempting to run him off the track.

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How do you know?

Could you see into the helmet?

Were you able to psychologically evaluate him based on what you saw on TV?

Assumptions do not a fact make, and it requires facts to be able to punish/penalise someone, else you risk making incorrect decisions.

p4p1 said:

The official umpire never saw my actions as it was behind play but he assumed(correctly) what happened and thought it best to remove me from the game to let me either plead guilty or go to the tribuneral to decide a punishment. Removing one player from the field(at the time in junior AFL rules a red card meant you couldn't replace the player) can effect the entire team and one loss can mean no finals. Much like removing Rossi from the race would've meant no championship but safety is the most important aspect of any sport. If it wasn't in MotoGP, helmets would be optional, leathers would be optional, spine and chest protectors would be optional, brake guards etc but yet other riders and Rossi's own safety meant nothing to RD at the time.

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But, you did not have a helmet on did you?

Plus, as an umpire they would be watching you even if you think not (source 6 years Rugby League referee - gave it up to start playing again - big mistake, it hurt)

The other aspect of refereeing is that you have a team, linesman plus you are able to hear what is said on the field, you will hear skin on skin contact, words of anger and so forth plus you can see body language as you are close to the action.

Fact - race direction is not close to the action and is not watching the same coverage as you - they are also often not even watching the racing as such but have their attention elsewhere, perhaps to flaggies reports, maybe a report from pits, could be a medical report from a prior race, maybe even weather etc

p4p1 said:

Rossi's position in the championship should've had no effect on the decision when RD asked themselves is this man currently a danger to others or himself on the track. He had proven he was and should've been removed from the track. His helmet guy should've been given a lifetime ban for attempting to get to Marquez in the pit as well. All in all I think we can all agree that the entire situation was poorly handled by DORNA and race direction. So sure he calmed down and didn't do anything else stupid but what if he had? What if another rider was laying in hospital thanks to another move from Rossi and RD failing to removing him from the track?

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Whilst there is no doubt that VR's championship position should not have impacted judgement, again that judgement should not have been made until after the race as the evidence that you are so sure convicts him may well have been rebutted by other evidence available from telemetry data and on-bike footage - information that could not have appeared until after the race and by then, to pull him from the race cannot be reversed - what if they got it wrong - could he, no should he have been given points back?

p4p1 said:

. I understand what you're saying about not having all the facts but do you believe if Marquez had done the same to Rossi the black flag wouldn't have (rightly) come out in a timely manner?

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If it was MM, there would have been no change to the way RD acted .......... you had the old golden goose and the new golden goose as MM was no shrinking violet with his on track actions and top date had not been sanctioned in any way .

Now, if it was a lower placed rider, well outside of the factories then we have a different story as their crowd pull is lessened, their importance to the game is lessened, their importance to DORNA is non-existent and I will bet that the outcome would have been different .......... still wrong (IMO) but different.

Jumkie said:

Mike made no such argument, he said maybe Rossi 'thought' (which I doubt and highly disagree) that Marc would continue off the track, hence avoiding contact, RCV600RR reasoned perhaps Marc bears some blame (more than 0.0%) because he didn't evade Rossi's attack enough. Big difference. Either way, I disagree with both potential scenarios, and note, neither exonerate Rossi’s ultimate responsibility; however having read Mike's extensive opinions on this topic, I read his take as 'if' we were going to give Rossi the benefit of the doubt that he didn’t intend Marc to crash. Notwithstanding, I think Rossi looking over deliberately several times, and the kick out with his leg luckily actuating the brake lever (a piece of telemetry that was ultimately buried by Honda at Dorna's behest, don't go asking for a link of admission by an official press release) eliminates and benefit if doubt regard what Rossi intended to happen to Marc.

If you live in a glass house don't throw rocks.

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I guess this is where we differ. I felt that, as MM turned in on VR, VR put his knee out to brace for the collision, and almost 'pushed' MM's bike off his, which caught his brake lever.

Was it intentional? Maybe, but it'd have to be impressive aim to so quickly react to MM turning into him.

Anyway, this is the sort of rubbish that happens when you run another rider wide. After running them wide, things get unpredictable.

Gaz said:

RdP was not stationary ......... far from it.

The rest is based on the assumption of what has become known after the race and yet you want RD to act on information that came out after the race .........





According to the law in NSW as example, all of what you listed is road rage.




Once again however - he made the statement AFTER the race, thus how are RD to make a decision during the race based on comments made AFTER it.




Definitely the unfamiliarity played a part but so did arrogance of pushing to the limit of the rules - did you ever see Gabbarini as MM started lap 11?

He and others knew it was over and that they had ...... up .......... which means that team MM ignored the advice of HRC at the time ........ no excuses for misunderstanding aside from arrogance

Check the 2 minute mark




Edit to add:
BTW, if you go back to my comments at the time you will see that I have the same view today as I did then.

Essentially, RD got it right to not flag him but the rest I disagree with in terms of punishment and vehemently oppose any chat that was had with Marquez

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PI 13 was such a fantastic race. Peak JL.

p4p1 said:

I know someone bought up Marquez imitating some of Rossi's past moves, ie Jerez and Laguna but I think that Laguna when Marquez was much different and showed that Rossi was never fun and games with Marquez.

In 2008 Rossi had left the track to maintain position in desperation because he knew once Stoner was in front for a few turns he was gone. In 2013 Marquez had ridden around Rossi going into the corkscrew and Rossi ran him so wide and off track that he himself ended up outside the track. Rossi had left Marquez nowhere to go which could've ended in both of them sliding down the track on there arses. This is why I believe the two are very different situations.

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I was at Laguna and in the corkscrew when Marc practiced that move over the drainage grate. He did it more than once that weekend before the race. It was a planned payback.

Iamapony said:

I was at Laguna and in the corkscrew when Marc practiced that move over the drainage grate. He did it more than once that weekend before the race. It was a planned payback.

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Payback for what, Rossi and Marquez were chummy at that point.

povol said:

Payback for what, Rossi and Marquez were chummy at that point.

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Beat me to it.

What is the argument? That he didn't practice it or it wasn't payback for the Stoner pass, which Stoner and HRC thought was illegal. Marc works for HRC. I am not sure they were as chummy as you believe. This is the site that thinks Rossi is a big phony, but on this occasion he wasn't? Yeah, okay.

Iamapony said:

What is the argument? That he didn't practice it or it wasn't payback for the Stoner pass, which Stoner and HRC thought was illegal. Marc works for HRC. I am not sure they were as chummy as you believe. This is the site that thinks Rossi is a big phony, but on this occasion he wasn't? Yeah, okay.

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Stoner rode for Ducati at the time of the pass...

Iamapony said:

What is the argument? That he didn't practice it or it wasn't payback for the Stoner pass, which Stoner and HRC thought was illegal. Marc works for HRC. I am not sure they were as chummy as you believe. This is the site that thinks Rossi is a big phony, but on this occasion he wasn't? Yeah, okay.

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No argument, just wrong choice of words. It was more one upmanship than payback.

RCV600RR said:

PI 13 was such a fantastic race. Peak JL.

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It is if you like NASCAR/F1 style forced pit stop garbage...

Iamapony said:

What is the argument? That he didn't practice it or it wasn't payback for the Stoner pass, which Stoner and HRC thought was illegal. Marc works for HRC. I am not sure they were as chummy as you believe. This is the site that thinks Rossi is a big phony, but on this occasion he wasn't? Yeah, okay.

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Mate - It couldn't be payback for any transgression on Rossi's part as none had as yet occurred. To suggest MM was engaged in retribution for the Stoner event to impress HRC is also patently absurd. Stoner was riding for Ducati at the time.

It was clear as day that MM who'd repeated the move several times in practice was putting Rossi on notice that there was a new goat in town. Whatever MM's motivation was, either way, would in no way reflect on Rossi whatsoever. So the whole thing of whether people do or don't like him is a red herring argument.

Keshav said:

Mate - It couldn't be payback for any transgression on Rossi's part as none had as yet occurred. To suggest MM was engaged in retribution for the Stoner event to impress HRC is also patently absurd. Stoner was riding for Ducati at the time.

It was clear as day that MM who'd repeated the move several times in practice was putting Rossi on notice that there was a new goat in town. Whatever MM's motivation was, either way, would in no way reflect on Rossi whatsoever. So the whole thing of whether people do or don't like him is a red herring argument.

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Perhaps the rules changed after LS 08, but according to how they ruled on the MM incident Rossi illegally maintained position in 2008.

michaelm said:

Perhaps the rules changed after LS 08, but according to how they ruled on the MM incident Rossi illegally maintained position in 2008.

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Good point, considering MM's corkscrew move was demonstrably premeditated.

Keshav said:

Good point, considering MM's corkscrew move was demonstrably premeditated.

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I believe they ruled that both riders left the track and that Rossi had forced MM off the track, Assen 2015 in reverse, the implication being for me anyway that you are not allowed to maintain position per se by going off track.

They are hoist on their own petard to an extent because of previous rulings. I think the placing MM gained by his last corner move on Lorenzo at Jerez 2013 should not have stood, but they had let Rossi’s similar 2005 move go.

michaelm said:

I believe they ruled that both riders left the track and that Rossi had forced MM off the track, Assen 2015 in reverse, the implication being for me anyway that you are not allowed to maintain position per se by going off track.

They are hoist on their own petard to an extent because of previous rulings. I think the placing MM gained by his last corner move on Lorenzo at Jerez 2013 should not have stood, but they had let Rossi’s similar 2005 move go.

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The most recent blatant off track cheat was rossi on Zarco earlier this year ..... that one was a total dorna farce.

michaelm said:

I believe they ruled that both riders left the track and that Rossi had forced MM off the track, Assen 2015 in reverse, the implication being for me anyway that you are not allowed to maintain position per se by going off track.

They are hoist on their own petard to an extent because of previous rulings. I think the placing MM gained by his last corner move on Lorenzo at Jerez 2013 should not have stood, but they had let Rossi’s similar 2005 move go.

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Jerez 05 was a joke.

RCV600RR said:

Stoner rode for Ducati at the time of the pass...

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Yes. That is a good point.

povol said:

No argument, just wrong choice of words. It was more one upmanship than payback.

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Yes. This is a good point, too. And I am not always at my publisher's best after a couple of cocktails. Thanks for the reminder.

So maybe Marc did it just to show the old man who the new GOAT is. Can I get an Amen? Thanks.

Iamapony said:

And I am not always at my publisher's best after a couple of cocktails.

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Haha. Yes, I always think I'm at my best posting level after a few ..... until the morning.

Iamapony said:

Yes. That is a good point.

Yes. This is a good point, too. And I am not always at my publisher's best after a couple of cocktails. Thanks for the reminder.

So maybe Marc did it just to show the old man who the new GOAT is. Can I get an Amen? Thanks.

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That's exactly what he was doing, Amen.