It's a joke, because until now the bike has not been changed dramatically and the riders are questioned when the peformance is poor
I agree these are big changes in comparison to the M1 which is more a safe but effective design this has more evolved that gone through revolutionary changes.
I wonder though how many of those changes have been rider driven as apposed to engineer driven.
The carbon fibre chassis is a philosophical direction that I believe Ducati hope to flow on to their road bikes and the engine configuration I think was largely due to the rule changes. The front end changes (I assume you mean forks) although new to begin with ended up being changes back through what they had used in the past so could hardly be considered progress.
I think it is safe to say that Ducati are or have been innovative in their approach to MotoGP. I applaud this as leaps forward can come from this approach. However there are plenty of innovations that grace the bottom of the waste bin and I am sure that Ducati have contributed a few of their own.
I am interested to see if Ducati continue with the innovative approach or follow the Japanese approach of safe safe safe.
Joined Aug 2007
11K Posts | 3K+
Pomona NY
Joined Aug 2007
11K Posts | 3K+
Pomona NY
In essence.... Ducati need to choose between making a unique engineering statement and making a successful race bike.
I am actually on j4rno's side in this thread in the main, despite my rider preference. It is not an unreasonable plan to get the best or close to the best development rider in history , particularly if he brings extra sponsorship/funding with him, to try to develop your bike differently if you are not happy with how things are going, particularly if you perceive the only rider who has had any success on the bike in the 800 era to be unreliable as they obviously did in 2009 when they started thinking along these lines. I can't see how rossi should be bound to leave the bike the way it was for stoner or be limited to the same resources as stoner, particularly as he has presumably been specifically hired by ducati because they didn't want to do this. This is unfair on stoner perhaps in some absolute sense, but life and in particular motogp racing as an aspect of life have never been fair to my observation. In any case I think stoner was genuinely happy to try a new thing with hrc, perhaps partly because he had been worn down by constantly riding the thing on the absolute edge as seemed to be necessary.
Where I would differ with you guys is in being so sure (more so in your case than j4rno's) that stoner is to blame for the bike's deficiencies, despite the affection for ducati I share with j4rno, which predated casey stoner's gp racing career by decades. Ducati are a touch evanescent , and known for getting things quite wrong on occasion as well as for getting things right as they did in 2007, and also as j4rno says for being wedded to certain idiosyncratic technologies, perhaps more for philosophical than practical reasons. You previously used troy bayliss's one off gp win as an example of ducati always being on top of things, but his record with the ducati gp team was otherwise fairly mediocre over multiple seasons, and he only consented to ride the ducati in that race if he was allowed to bring his superbike pitcrew such was his reputed disdain for livio suppo in particular.
I think it remains to be seen whether even rossi and jb can easily sort the ducati, or the 800 ducati anyway, as it does whether stoner has really moved to greener pastures; the latter is what interests me from the perspective of my particular bias, although I will find it tough to support hrc against ducati next year.
My view which is obviously speculative is that the carbon fibre approach may not necessarily be a problem as it seemed to work fairly well last year when stoner was healthy, and his only significant lose in the whole season was the warm-up lap at valencia which has been at least partly attributed to a tyre warmer problem. I don't think this year's bridgestone suited the ducati, or stoner's riding style (or rossi's for that matter). I think it is possible that the chassis approach puts them at a disadvantage compared with the yamaha and possibly the honda as they have now been developed; ducati and most others thought the trellis frame had reached the end of the line, and the bike has never appeared to be a nimble handler with that or the current chassis. The L4 engine lay-out may also give disadvantages as others have said, although in general ducati would mostly appear to have had engine advantages rather than disadvantages.
Joined Oct 2007
4K Posts | 744+
Tuscany, Italy
Then look at my "very clear position" well, and see that I have never been obsessed with Rossi. As much as I appreciate Rossi, I appreciate Stoner as well, for instance. I remember how I was one of the very few, here, defending Stoner when he was sick in 2009 and most people were ridiculing him. Nobody accused me of being a Stoner bopper, interestingly.
But whenever I take the defense of Rossi against idiotic staments like "MotoGP is a Rossi-series", or other similar idiocy, then I am a Rossi bopper.
Big Yawn.
Then look at my "very clear position" well, and see that I have never been obsessed with Rossi. As much as I appreciate Rossi, I appreciate Stoner as well, for instance. I remember how I was one of the very few, here, defending Stoner when he was sick in 2009 and most people were ridiculing him. Nobody accused me of being a Stoner bopper, interestingly.
But whenever I take the defense of Rossi against idiotic staments like "MotoGP is a Rossi-series", or other similar idiocy, then I am a Rossi bopper.
Big Yawn.
I'm not into any of this bopper ..... And i agree that you don't exclusively discuss Rossi, that is good. But it is clear in any discussion that involves Rossi that your reasoning always happens to favour Rossi. Just as your logic and reasoning happens to always find you on the negative side of the Lorenzo fence. That is fine because you are a fan and you have your favorites like we all do but you are no better than Jumkie and his agendas or anyone else with theirs. Very few people around here come accross as actually being nuetral despite their favorites. Props to michaelm for showing us how its done
Then look at my "very clear position" well, and see that I have never been obsessed with Rossi. As much as I appreciate Rossi, I appreciate Stoner as well, for instance. I remember how I was one of the very few, here, defending Stoner when he was sick in 2009 and most people were ridiculing him. Nobody accused me of being a Stoner bopper, interestingly.
But whenever I take the defense of Rossi against idiotic staments like "MotoGP is a Rossi-series", or other similar idiocy, then I am a Rossi bopper.
Big Yawn.
Even such stoner die-hards as bunyip and I have appreciated your support of stoner whilst being a fan of rossi, and of ducati as it is not unreasonable for you to be. Your only view on this thread I take some issue with is that stoner has been deficient in not developing the bike for other riders, as I think few if any riders including valentino have this as much of a priority
Joined Oct 2007
4K Posts | 744+
Tuscany, Italy
I am not a "fan" of Rossi, nor of any rider since the times I was a kid and Saarinen, whom I liked no ends, used to beat Agostini (whom I didn't like at all). Now I'm grownup and I'm not the "fan" type any more.
I surely have a high appreciation for some riders, and gladly list them in my favorite riders list -- like Rossi and Stoner, who in my view are the best in activity.
I agree all riders think about themselves first -- Valentino will try to make the Ducati more rideable for himself, and only incidentally that may benefit others.
Stoner being "deficient" in solving problems that affected his teammates more than him, is not "my" view, it is a rumor that I heard and it comes from Ducati. I do not live far from that factory, was born in that region and have been in the local motorcycle scene for decades, and it's almost inevitable that I know someone who works there. Still, it's just a rumor among employees, not gospel. Moreover, I said I did not consider it intentional of Stoner -- he just couldn't do much about it imho.
I have noticed that some people here keep confusing the general problem of the rideability of the Ducati Desmosedici with the front end problems that have plagued Stoner and other riders this year. The two issues are different. The second one appeared in 2010 and compounded a more general issue that has been there since 2007.
Now the fact that Rossi has indicated the front end as a priority to sort out, must not make us forget that even without a particular front end problem the Ducati 800 was a very difficult beast to tame. And it probably will remain such even after sorting the front end.
[quote name='J4rn0' date='10 December 2010 - 02:01 PM' timestamp='1291989681' post='262458']
I am not a "fan" of Rossi, nor of any rider since the times I was a kid and Saarinen, whom I liked no ends, used to beat Agostini (whom I didn't like at all). Now I'm grownup and I'm not the "fan" type any more.
I surely have a high appreciation for some riders, and gladly list them in my favorite riders list -- like Rossi and Stoner, who in my view are the best in activity.
I agree all riders think about themselves first -- Valentino will try to make the Ducati more rideable for himself, and only incidentally that may benefit others.
Stoner being "deficient" in solving problems that affected his teammates more than him, is not "my" view, it is a rumor that I heard and it comes from Ducati. I do not live far from that factory, was born in that region and have been in the local motorcycle scene for decades, and it's almost inevitable that I know someone who works there. Still, it's just a rumor among employees, not gospel. Moreover, I said I did not consider it intentional of Stoner -- he just couldn't do much about it imho.
/quote]
I am definitely still a fan, despite probably being older if not more mature than you, and would possibly be an even bigger ducati fan if they were australian bikes, but hopefully am amenable to reasonable arguments as a part of informed discussion, which makes it difficult to detract from valentino rossi if one is to retain any semblance of intellectual rigour; I genuinely admire his riding in any case, and he seems a pretty decent bloke particularly as far as ultra-competitive hyper-elite sportsmen go.
I think ducati are undoubtedly correct in thinking that a bike developed by valentino is likely to suit others also, as his premier class career at least demonstrates, and it is smart for them to sign him from this point of view for their medium term future as I think you did imply earlier in the thread. Your ducati contact may be correct about stoner, he certainly has no form for developing bikes which suit others, but it is also the sort of thing said with the best will in the world when a rider leaves and another joins, as you are probably also more or less implying, even when riders of lesser stature than rossi are involved. Ducati certainly seemed to love stoner madly in 2007 when all was going very well, but producing that championship capable bike against the competition of honda and yamaha remains a great achievement for which stoner should be and I am sure is grateful.
I am not a "fan" of Rossi, nor of any rider since the times I was a kid and Saarinen, whom I liked no ends, used to beat Agostini (whom I didn't like at all). Now I'm grownup and I'm not the "fan" type any more.
I surely have a high appreciation for some riders, and gladly list them in my favorite riders list -- like Rossi and Stoner, who in my view are the best in activity.
I agree all riders think about themselves first -- Valentino will try to make the Ducati more rideable for himself, and only incidentally that may benefit others.
Stoner being "deficient" in solving problems that affected his teammates more than him, is not "my" view, it is a rumor that I heard and it comes from Ducati. I do not live far from that factory, was born in that region and have been in the local motorcycle scene for decades, and it's almost inevitable that I know someone who works there. Still, it's just a rumor among employees, not gospel. Moreover, I said I did not consider it intentional of Stoner -- he just couldn't do much about it imho.
/quote]
I am definitely still a fan, despite probably being older if not more mature than you, and would possibly be an even bigger ducati fan if they were australian bikes, but hopefully am amenable to reasonable arguments as a part of informed discussion, which makes it difficult to detract from valentino rossi if one is to retain any semblance of intellectual rigour; I genuinely admire his riding in any case, and he seems a pretty decent bloke particularly as far as ultra-competitive hyper-elite sportsmen go.
I think ducati are undoubtedly correct in thinking that a bike developed by valentino is likely to suit others also, as his premier class career at least demonstrates, and it is smart for them to sign him from this point of view for their medium term future as I think you did imply earlier in the thread. Your ducati contact may be correct about stoner, he certainly has no form for developing bikes which suit others, but it is also the sort of thing said with the best will in the world when a rider leaves and another joins, as you are probably also more or less implying, even when riders of lesser stature than rossi are involved. Ducati certainly seemed to love stoner madly in 2007 when all was going very well, but producing that championship capable bike against the competition of honda and yamaha remains a great achievement for which stoner should be and I am sure is grateful.
Joined Oct 2006
25K Posts | 4K+
Your Mom's House
Where is Talps, Rossiofsky, and inam to call ........ on you?
Anyway, not sure why you carry on with Stoner being "deficient at solving problems", for himself or teammates, since its not news that it also effected him. What part of 'they didn't listen to him like they are now listening to Rossi' don't you understand?
Joined Oct 2007
4K Posts | 744+
Tuscany, Italy
Where is Talps, Rossiofsky, and inam to call ........ on you?
Anyway, not sure why you carry on with Stoner being "deficient at solving problems", for himself or teammates, since its not news that it also effected him. What part of 'they didn't listen to him like they are now listening to Rossi' don't you understand?
I'll try one more time with you.
The general "rideabily problem" of the Ducati affected all the Ducati riders but Stoner, from 2007 to 2009. Remember? Stoner was winning, others were nowhere. Not many problems for him.
The only rideability issue that has also affected Stoner (maybe him even more than others, since he pushed the bike harder) is the famous front end problem that has appeared in 2010.
As I wrote earlier, these two issues cannot be mixed. The Ducati was already difficult to ride at the limit -- only Stoner could -- well before 2010.
Last: I'm not "carrying on" with Stoner being "deficient at solving problems", I was only reporting an opinion and made clear I think differently. Before hitting reply, at least read the posts, don't go on blindly repeating the same sentences like my grand-granny.
I know it involves thinking, but you can do it when you want.
I was joking because it is so unrealistic, we will never hear a comment like that. Ducati would be torn appart in the press and by the fans, plus i would say hiring Rossi was a step away from this attitude and towards working for a rider.
Joined Oct 2006
25K Posts | 4K+
Your Mom's House
As I wrote earlier, these two issues cannot be mixed. The Ducati was already difficult to ride at the limit -- only Stoner could -- well before 2010.
Last: I'm not "carrying on" with Stoner being "deficient at solving problems", I was only reporting an opinion and made clear I think differently. Before hitting reply, at least read the posts, don't go on blindly repeating the same sentences like my grand-granny.
I know it involves thinking, but you can do it when you want.
Wait wait J4rno, are we having a conversation exchanging opinions or am I "spoiling the thread"?
Yes, I read its "not your view", but am I suppose to believe it now? I suppose I should be happy that you're back pedaling, but if you're being honest, then I think you can honestly see why I would think otherwise, since you've been telling us how Stoner couldn't explain or give useful feedback to Ducati for a while now.
Its been a good thread you started so far, maybe because your old pal Talps has resisted the urge to ...... it up. So don't go crying foul when your ideas are challenged with your "agenda" please.
Joined Oct 2006
25K Posts | 4K+
Your Mom's House
I'm still a bit confused what you were joking about?
Well, of what I think you are saying, I disagree, I don't think its beyond Ducati Corse under so much pressure to win, now that the spot light is intensified for results under the "GOAT", that some statement in unique design is all that important at present. Besides, this "design" is really only for street going versions as I hope you are under no allusions that their GP bike and street bikes have anything in common.
About Ducati's attitude, haha, please man. Ducati is making a step to work with Rossi, period! They've had plenty of opportunities to work with good riders, 3 world champs in fact. One got them a title, but still the issues never got sorted. J4rno is claiming the problems only started this year.
I'd say this is very selective memory as Stoner had significant problems with the front end in 08. Infact he elected to use the 07 tires. (You may remember this because I contend that this was because Bstone stated taking their tire development cues from Rossi, which ...... Casey). In 09, Stoner continued to have problems, and many who didn't question his integrity about his illness also attributed his physical issues with the sever and difficult "rideability" that the Ducati presented. Its as if we have forgot how violently the bike twisted and bucked around the circuits.
Sure, Stoner was winning races in 08-09, but so was he in 10, this indicates that Casey continued to rider around problems, however the conclusion should NOT be made that he didn't experience problem and communicate these problems during the previous years. One think I don't like, are these revisionist attempts. Its like if enough time passes, we can just make up a new history. Stoner is a very private person on top of that, and he doesn't normally put his manufacture on blast like Rossi and Pedrosa have done. And even with this dynamic, we the public, were very aware that Stoner had problems with the Ducati bikes for years. Yes, with an S (plural).
