What's Wrong with the Ducati?

Mental Anarchist said:

If Rossi was there to just win championships he would still be on a Honda. Rossi is ego driven like all champions and there is far more to being a legend than just winning championships.



I don't agree with your comment about winning on Stoner's bike as I don't agree that it is Stoner's bike. It is Ducati's bike. This is why riders and come and gone with the general complaint that Ducati did not listen. This is why Rossi did not switch in the past. There are 2 challenges for Rossi to choose from 1) ride the Ducati as it was designed to be ridden or 2) develop the Ducati in to a red Yamaha. In my opinion option 1 requires a great rider where as option 2 requires a great influencer. I am of no illusion as to Rossi's capability to influence a team to provide him what he wants (however his recent failing to get Yamaha to do this could cause some doubt into his capacity in this area in that camp) as he has proven to be the best at this game. I wanted to see if Rossi could ride something idiosyncratic and wild.

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I don't understand your logic. Are you saying that Rossi should use Stoner's ducati from Valencia Race'10 for the entire 2011? If you are saying that what about keeping Stoner's bike settings also? Isn't Nicky setting up the bike differently than Stoner? Would that demean his championship results in a Ducati then?



When you say Ducati's bike, is Stoner using the bike as is manufactured in the factory without a single setting change? If not, why can't he ride the bike that belongs to Ducati with the settings Ducati intended to use as default?



And finally, how can you authoritatively say that Rossi cares about riding Stoner's Ducati faster than winning 2011 championship? Because your entire post is based on the assumption that he wants that , he failed to do that and hence asking Ducati to change the bike.



As of now, your theory seems too far fetched and baseless.



~Renjith

Good thread this. Great points made by all.

J4rn0 said:

There are a two arbitrary assumption here.

One, the Ducati has not been designed to be ridden in that particular way. The fact that it is difficult to be ridden fast is incidental to its design and surely wasn't intentional.

Two, Rossi and JB are not trying to develop the Duc into a red Yam, for the simple reason that it's impossible. The basic design is too different.



What Rossi is trying to do is to eliminate the 'unpredictable zone' before the 'fast zone' of the Ducati is reached. If he succeeds, the bike will still be a Ducati that has to be ridden in a certain way, different from Yamaha or Honda. But it will be possible to bring it to pace more gradually and deliberately, as it should be.



They say the Ducati feels horrible until the front tire reaches optimal temp. Great. Why should it be accepted as it is? It's not like that on other bikes. It is definitely a problem, not a feature...



Stoner has been able to ride over the problem, but could not solve it. He always said he wasn't doing anything different but lost the front end: he had no idea. Now let's see if Rossi can solve it. Who is best? The one who can ride over a difficult problem, or the one who is capable to solve it? It's a tough call.



Rossi and Stoner are both favorite riders of mine, because they are both unique

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couldn't explain better

Mental Anarchist said:

No probs. Great minds ....







I don't believe Rossi had to be at the top of the time sheets straight away to be the GOAT. What I do believe is that he should be able to learn to ride anything. After all GOAT stands for 'Greatest Of All Time' not 'Greatest On Best Bike Only' which would be GOBBO!



I agree that Stoner rides over the line, it is probably what has made him the only guy to be able to win on the Ducati. It is documented that to make the Ducati work you have to go past the first set of limits. I would argue that for what ever reason Rossi only rode the bike up to this first set of limits at Valencia and didn't take the bike into its operating zone. This is my point. If he was the GOAT he would have taken it into this zone and made it work rather than require that the bike be redesigned into a bike that is just the same as what he has always ridden.



My comment about Rossi riding with the tide behind him is this very point. Rossi has the power to make everything as perfect as it can be so he can win. Arguably no other rider has this power and therefore they are all swimming against the tide in some way.



What would have impressed me is if Rossi had of knuckled down and challenged himself on the bike rather than challenge everyone else in the pits to give him what he wants. It is this that I respect in satellite riders and the likes of Hayden, Stoner, DePuniet who haven't been handed it on a platter. They ride the .... out of what they are given.



Do you think Stoner blames the front end or does he say that he lost the front end for ...... reason? I think there is a difference.

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I know i have thought about the same about Rossi.-He's making everyone around him give him what he wants and therefore it's easier for him to do well,compared to other fast riders who doesn't have the same power.

But,this is prototype bikes being tested,the whole point is to develope them to be as effective as possible.Maybe that was Rossi/Burgess main task this test and during wintertesting.Perhaps Preziosi thought,we need to do something to change the bike,it's too awkward,make it easier to understand, that everyone can use.Looking back.If Rossi is fast on the bike,lots of riders find it easy to ride it.I'm sure everyone at Ducati including himself would have loved to record just a few laps that were fast enough to be top 3 at the tests or whatever.

To do that he would probarbly have needed to ride around those problems he seemed to have.He would probarbly had to take a risk of crashing and the team would probarbly not be getting much better input from him.

Maybe other riders at the test were riding around small problems,pushing a few laps like at a qualifying but maybe they didn't help the team so much more by doing that.Other than looking good on the time sheets.

So maybe Rossi thought the front end of the Ducati was so bad,there were no reason to push.Which makes it a bad test.Like Preziosi said.Meaning they have lots of work to do at the factory.

At the next test,and near the first race,i could understand that everyone including Rossi will need to push,when they all don't have too much time to change things and they have to be fast on what they got.Change riding styles and so on.

Anders GUZZI said:

I know i have thought about the same about Rossi.-He's making everyone around him give him what he wants and therefore it's easier for him to do well,compared to other fast riders who doesn't have the same power.

But,this is prototype bikes being tested,the whole point is to develope them to be as effective as possible.Maybe that was Rossi/Burgess main task this test and during wintertesting.Perhaps Preziosi thought,we need to do something to change the bike,it's too awkward,make it easier to understand, that everyone can use.Looking back.If Rossi is fast on the bike,lots of riders find it easy to ride it.I'm sure everyone at Ducati including himself would have loved to record just a few laps that were fast enough to be top 3 at the tests or whatever.

To do that he would probarbly have needed to ride around those problems he seemed to have.He would probarbly had to take a risk of crashing and the team would probarbly not be getting much better input from him.

Maybe other riders at the test were riding around small problems,pushing a few laps like at a qualifying but maybe they didn't help the team so much more by doing that.Other than looking good on the time sheets.

So maybe Rossi thought the front end of the Ducati was so bad,there were no reason to push.Which makes it a bad test.Like Preziosi said.Meaning they have lots of work to do at the factory.

At the next test,and near the first race,i could understand that everyone including Rossi will need to push,when they all don't have too much time to change things and they have to be fast on what they got.Change riding styles and so on.

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You make some excellent points Anders.

Jumkie said:

You make some excellent points Anders.

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Thank you.

It's all guessing ofcourse and not much knowledge ofcourse.

Anders GUZZI said:

It's all guessing ofcourse and not much knowledge ofcourse.

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Ah yes, but its intelligent guessing, and honestly, not everybody can do that.

Jumkie said:

Ah yes, but its intelligent guessing, and honestly, not everybody can do that.

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Thanks a ton.

You have lots of good posts on here,and entertaining too.

J4rn0 said:

There are a two arbitrary assumption here.

One, the Ducati has not been designed to be ridden in that particular way. The fact that it is difficult to be ridden fast is incidental to its design and surely wasn't intentional.

Two, Rossi and JB are not trying to develop the Duc into a red Yam, for the simple reason that it's impossible. The basic design is too different.



What Rossi is trying to do is to eliminate the 'unpredictable zone' before the 'fast zone' of the Ducati is reached. If he succeeds, the bike will still be a Ducati that has to be ridden in a certain way, different from Yamaha or Honda. But it will be possible to bring it to pace more gradually and deliberately, as it should be.



They say the Ducati feels horrible until the front tire reaches optimal temp. Great. Why should it be accepted as it is? It's not like that on other bikes. It is definitely a problem, not a feature...



Stoner has been able to ride over the problem, but could not solve it. He always said he wasn't doing anything different but lost the front end: he had no idea. Now let's see if Rossi can solve it. Who is best? The one who can ride over a difficult problem, or the one who is capable to solve it? It's a tough call.



Rossi and Stoner are both favorite riders of mine, because they are both unique

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Well said.

Why should Rossi go fast on something that feels dangerous and uncertain to him - especially if when he does, he's only got high chance of not finishing the lap. In top level sport, it's unacceptable for a bike to continue like that without trying to improve it. Stoner is a freak in the way he could ride the Ducati, however, by the time he left, he couldn't win championships on it. The behaviour of the bike was too uncertain and the DNF rate increased because Stoner would not accept anything other than trying for the win. The bike couldn't do what Stoner wanted it to do - he wanted another championship. He left for that and other reasons.



Why should Rossi leave a bike as is and try to win a championship on it if it is proven to be dangerous, uncertain and when the freak couldn't get it to consistently perform. If Stoner could be consistent and not crash on it, there would be a better argument to say that Rossi should try and win on the same bike. Rossi should not be looked down on because he wants to do his job.



I honestly would prefer that Rossi doesn't have any more crashes. The two this year have done enough damage.

I say fix the bike, that's your job, continuous improvement is what all the factories should be doing.



Once he's done at Ducati, on to Suzuki.

J4rn0 said:

There are a two arbitrary assumption here.

One, the Ducati has not been designed to be ridden in that particular way. The fact that it is difficult to be ridden fast is incidental to its design and surely wasn't intentional.

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I agree with this, I think lex's theory that it was developed to ride on a particular bridgestone tyre which is no longer available is also plausible. I do think the bike was developed to be as fast as possible with little concern about rideability though; presiozi et al more or less said this in 2007, having previously said they did not believe rossi could be beaten by a conventional bike.



I think there is a good chance the 2012 ducati will be quite something, presiozi's/ducati's innovation combined with rossi's/jb's proven ability to make things work, and no longer constrained by the primary design philosophy of producing a bike fast enough to beat valentino rossi. If rossi can "fix" the current ducati without a major- re-design it will really be quite an achievement though as you say, surpassing his efforts with the 2004 yamaha which was basically similar to the honda he had already developed.

Renjith said:

I don't understand your logic. Are you saying that Rossi should use Stoner's ducati from Valencia Race'10 for the entire 2011? If you are saying that what about keeping Stoner's bike settings also? Isn't Nicky setting up the bike differently than Stoner? Would that demean his championship results in a Ducati then?



When you say Ducati's bike, is Stoner using the bike as is manufactured in the factory without a single setting change? If not, why can't he ride the bike that belongs to Ducati with the settings Ducati intended to use as default?



And finally, how can you authoritatively say that Rossi cares about riding Stoner's Ducati faster than winning 2011 championship? Because your entire post is based on the assumption that he wants that , he failed to do that and hence asking Ducati to change the bike.



As of now, your theory seems too far fetched and baseless.



~Renjith

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To be honest I am not saying Rossi should do anything. What I am saying is I would have liked to see Rossi ride the Ducati as a Ducati. A MotoGP bike is almost infinitely adjustable and it would be just plain silly to suggest that Rossi not change a setting and if this is what you think I have said then I am either a poor conveyor of a message or your interpretation of what I have commented is way off. My message has been that I would like to see Rossi conquer the Ducati as it is rather than completely redesign it and make it as much like a Honda or Yamaha as possible. I have commented that I think this flies in the face of what Ducati is. Just look at Ducati road bikes, they do not resemble their Japanese counterparts at all and that is what defines Ducati.



I did not authoritatively say that Rossi cares about anything. I offered a different opinion to that that suggests Rossi only cares about championships. Can you authoritatively say that Championships is all that he cares about?



Renjith, I appreciate you responding to my posts a great deal but please read them as my opinion, speculation and sometimes desires rather than being an authoritative commentary on what Rossi or anyone wants.

J4rn0 said:

There are a two arbitrary assumption here.

One, the Ducati has not been designed to be ridden in that particular way. The fact that it is difficult to be ridden fast is incidental to its design and surely wasn't intentional.

Two, Rossi and JB are not trying to develop the Duc into a red Yam, for the simple reason that it's impossible. The basic design is too different.



What Rossi is trying to do is to eliminate the 'unpredictable zone' before the 'fast zone' of the Ducati is reached. If he succeeds, the bike will still be a Ducati that has to be ridden in a certain way, different from Yamaha or Honda. But it will be possible to bring it to pace more gradually and deliberately, as it should be.



They say the Ducati feels horrible until the front tire reaches optimal temp. Great. Why should it be accepted as it is? It's not like that on other bikes. It is definitely a problem, not a feature...



Stoner has been able to ride over the problem, but could not solve it. He always said he wasn't doing anything different but lost the front end: he had no idea. Now let's see if Rossi can solve it. Who is best? The one who can ride over a difficult problem, or the one who is capable to solve it? It's a tough call.



Rossi and Stoner are both favorite riders of mine, because they are both unique

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I understand what Rossi is trying to do and I understand it is what he has done previously. I in fact have applauded JB's ability to eliminate problems with a bike and also commented that their process is to eliminate problems and make a bike that is just neutral. If they do this to the Ducati I will not be at all surprised.



In 2007, when commenting on Stoners ability to ride the Ducati, Prezosi stated that Stoner is the only rider who is riding the Ducati in the manor that is was designed to be ridden. I may be wrong but a race bike is designed to be ridden at the limit and not under it. Therefore it is designed to work to its maximum in the narrow band at the limit. A road bike is designed to be ridden in a broad band from 60 to 100% of the limit with no surprises. Therefore it does not surprise me that the Ducati, a highly tuned race bike, has issues at 95% because it was not designed to be ridden there.



Again I will take issue with the comment that Stoner was not able to solve the problem for 2 reasons. It is quite clear that Ducati did not listen to the feedback of their many factory riders and perhaps Stoner excepted and just got on with riding the bike in the 99-100% zone.

Jumkie said:

You make some excellent points Anders.

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I agree.

Thanks Mental Anarchist.

I think it would be wonderful to see Rossi riding around making the Ducati look like it did when Stoner rode it.

And I hope it's still a Ducati when he is finished,so to speak.

I can imagine Preziosi and Rossi has had very deep/ingoing discussions how they should approach the developement.

And this first test.

Maybe Preziosi thought that those few days were too little time for Rossi to find out everything to understand the bike.So perhaps they more or less agreed that he would not try to ajust to it one bit,just ride it and report every little thing he could say about it.

So maybe he just rode it like he rode the Yamaha.

I'm actually not as interrested in what he will say about it,when he isn't banned anymore.(Lots of politics probarbly)But more how he would look when riding it in Sepang.Because i'm sure he would be pushing.

J4rn0 said:

From Guareschi's long interview with Motosprint last week, after the tests. Sorry I do not have the time to translate the article, just gave you a couple of hints.



If he says they reached a level they had not reached before, in terms of making the bike friendly and easier, why should we not believe him? Vitto is a very straightforward guy -- if he wanted to play it safe he would stay mum in this phase, don't you think?

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No. Ducati is under a great deal of scrutiny and even more pressure to pull a rabbit out of their collective hats.

If they don't make some kind of statement - it would be the equivalent of a movie by Spielberg that hasn't

been shown at a film festival and hasn't been previewed by critics before being released in the theaters. Every

one would assume the movie was going to be a dog.

Jumkie said:

You make some excellent points Anders.

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Anders GUZZI said:

Thank you.

It's all guessing ofcourse and not much knowledge ofcourse.

Click to expand...

Jumkie said:

Ah yes, but its intelligent guessing, and honestly, not everybody can do that.

Click to expand...

Anders GUZZI said:

Thanks a ton.

You have lots of good posts on here,and entertaining too.

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Bromance

Keshav said:

Bromance

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I was kind of waiting for a comment like that from someone.

J4rn0 said:

The fact that he could ride the Ducati that fast has confused the engineers who thought, if he can do it, why not others? It has taken them time -- and Stoner's crisis in 2009 as well as at the beginning of 2010 -- to realize there may really be something wrong with the bike. I do not know why Stoner did not address the problem forcibly inside the team -- if he really did not have any idea, or if he did not feel particularly motivated to solve a problem that concerned others more than him? Who knows. I personally think it's the first one.

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What makes you think that he did not try hard to get this through to them? It is inconsistent to state as fact that he did not try hard to communicate this to the team (despite telling the media) and then follow it up with conjecture. I don't know what the other riders said but I think it is safe to say that it was highly unlikely that he was the only rider complaining about the front. If you have some inside link to the team then I would love to hear about it but you engage in plenty of speculation on topics regarding the bike/team which is suprising if you do in fact have a source. Don't take this as a personal criticism as I generally enjoy your posts and a lot of what you say makes sense to me.



Like Mental has already pointed out, the laws of physics dictate that for every action there is an equel yet opposite reaction - changing the front end is bound to have an effect on the rear -just what this means for how the Ducati will ultimately behave at the limit remains to be seen but with the lack of real testing time now you have to think that radical changes must be a gamble no matter how smart the engineers/JB etc are.