What's Wrong with the Ducati?

J4rn0 · Dec 9, 2010

Lebowski said:
What makes you think that he did not try hard to get this through to them? It is inconsistent to state as fact that he did not try hard to communicate this to the team (despite telling the media) and then follow it up with conjecture. I don't know what the other riders said but I think it is safe to say that it was highly unlikely that he was the only rider complaining about the front. If you have some inside link to the team then I would love to hear about it but you engage in plenty of speculation on topics regarding the bike/team which is suprising if you do in fact have a source. Don't take this as a personal criticism as I generally enjoy your posts and a lot of what you say makes sense to me.

Like Mental has already pointed out, the laws of physics dictate that for every action there is an equel yet opposite reaction - changing the front end is bound to have an effect on the rear -just what this means for how the Ducati will ultimately behave at the limit remains to be seen but with the lack of real testing time now you have to think that radical changes must be a gamble no matter how smart the engineers/JB etc are.

As I said, Stoner's only "fault" has been to keep winning races, so for a long time Preziosi was convinced the bike was just super and Capirossi was old and Melandri needed the shrink. When his own health became the problem he was quite capable of giving an aut-aut to the team and even taking off and go home, take it or leave it -- so he is very capable of putting his foot down when he wants. He never did anything particulalrly strong to have the rideability of the bike fixed though.

Maybe he did not feel that problem too much. Some have suspected that a situation in which he was the only rider capable to tame the Desmosedici wasn't unpleasant to him (this is the only "insider" information I have from some friends at Ducati -- he never gave any suggestion on how to solve that problem for Capirossi or Melandri or Nicky, engineers had to guess what he was doing different by analyzing his data, no useful feedback or suggestions from him -- that's what Preziosi means when he says that at times he felt like strangling him).

Personally, I do not believe Stoner was holding anything back because he "enjoyed" his privileged position and wanted to keep it that way -- I rather think he really did not have any ideas. He's 100% a natural talent, he doesn't analyze what he does. Now with Rossi they have the opposite: a flood of analyses and suggestions, even after a poor test like Valencia. We'll see...

BarryMachine · Dec 9, 2010

Stoner and how he dealt with the Ducati's grip balance problem:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yw24pY6ScNA&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhFYYa6v0K8&feature=related

Its actually a shame he's left Ducati just for that, then again who knows maybe the Honda will be a bit loose too?

Mental Anarchist · Dec 9, 2010

J4rn0 said:
He's 100% a natural talent, he doesn't analyze what he does. Now with Rossi they have the opposite: a flood of analyses and suggestions, even after a poor test like Valencia. We'll see...

Wow we have a revelation and you heard it here. J4rno has claimed that Rossi has no talent! "Stoner 100% natural talent Rossi the opposite!!!"

J4rn0 you had better be careful as you will have your self after you with comments like this!!!

michaelm · Dec 9, 2010

J4rn0 said:
Personally, I do not believe Stoner was holding anything back because he "enjoyed" his privileged position and wanted to keep it that way -- I rather think he really did not have any ideas. He's 100% a natural talent, he doesn't analyze what he does. Now with Rossi they have the opposite: a flood of analyses and suggestions, even after a poor test like Valencia. We'll see...

I don't find it unreasonable for you to say stoner may not have had any ideas about how to fix the bike, and if he does not have the developmental ability of a rossi or doohan this will not put him in a select group. Unfortunately no-one else seems to have had many ideas either. I take some issue with him not helping other riders; as you said about the ducati not being designed to be difficult to ride I don't believe valentino deliberately develops bikes so they are easy for others to ride either

.

If it is fixable I think rossi will fix it. I still do think it possible ducati are/were in a technical cul de sac, particularly since as I said earlier in the thread their admitted approach was to go radical because they thought this was their only chance to win, not that I haven''t always in general found the idiosyncratic approach of ducati appealing. If valentino and jb get rid of the vices of the bike with minor tweaks this will be proof that stoner held ducati back; however the view of jb and hence presumably valentino, and the impression from what presiozi said post valencia, was that the changes required were more than minor, and if they need to do such things as significantly re-design the front or abandon the carbon fibre approach I think this will reflect less on stoner. You would think they could get the new(ish) front forks, similar in variety to those which seemed to improve the yamaha this year, to work at least.

J4rn0 · Dec 9, 2010

Mental Anarchist said:
Wow we have a revelation and you heard it here. J4rno has claimed that Rossi has no talent! "Stoner 100% natural talent Rossi the opposite!!!"

J4rn0 you had better be careful as you will have your self after you with comments like this!!!

Actually, Sir, I think my sentence is clear enough -- I am comparing the power of analysis, not the (natural) talent. Read again:

[font="tahoma, arial, verdana, sans-serif"]"He's 100% a natural talent, he doesn't analyze what he does. Now with Rossi they have the opposite: a flood of analyses and suggestions."[/font]

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[/font]

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Jumkie · Dec 9, 2010

What J4rno continues to consistently gloss over is the stark difference in how Ducati received feedback from its top rider in the past and now. Its ridiculous to read according to J4rno that Stoner didn't give the engineers good feedback because he's such a natural talent and doesn't analyze things. I'd say, same goes for Nicky's feedback, who was having the same front-end crashes. The reality (something that continues to be missed here) is that Ducati are willing to listen to Rossi as if it were the word of God while their other riders got no such luxury (yet I keep reading how Stoner etal didn't do a good job of development). Does anybody think that Rossi will tell them, look, change this fork tube to have less ribs on its outer shell and use carbon with less cross weave or instead use titanium on this part and etc.? NO! He tells them the problem he's experiencing and the engineers try to present solutions. And sometimes it’s multiple attempts to solve one problem. This is the dynamic that was missing with the previous riders. I contend, they were all either second guessed or flatly not listened to or were not presented multiple solutions for the rider to pick from. The fact that J4rno says Stoner was so fast as to confuse the engineers is contradictory to what he's saying and further advances my point that Ducati go out of their way to present solutions. This is decidedly an advantage Rossi has, that they will move heaven and earth. I'm sure some solutions that they present will not be spot on, so what will they do? Present another 10 combinations. Why? Because he's Rossi. Ha not this been the message coming from Ducati itself? When did we hear them singing this tune? Did we ever hear the collective voices of Ducati singing in unison “We must improve for Stoner to be Stoner.”???

J4rn0 · Dec 9, 2010

michaelm said:
I don't find it unreasonable for you to say stoner may not have had any ideas about how to fix the bike, and if he does not have the developmental ability of a rossi or doohan this will not put him in a select group. Unfortunately no-one else seems to have had many ideas either. I take some issue with him not helping other riders; as you said about the ducati not being designed to be difficult to ride I don't believe valentino deliberately develops bikes so they are easy for others to ride either

.

If it is fixable I think rossi will fix it. I still do think it possible ducati are/were in a technical cul de sac, particularly since as I said earlier in the thread their admitted approach was to go radical because they thought this was their only chance to win, not that I haven''t always in general found the idiosyncratic approach of ducati appealing. If valentino and jb get rid of the vices of the bike with minor tweaks this will be proof that stoner held ducati back; however the view of jb and hence presumably valentino, and the impression from what presiozi said post valencia, was that the changes required were more than minor, and if they need to do such things as significantly re-design the front or abandon the carbon fibre approach I think this will reflect less on stoner. You would think they could get the new(ish) front forks, similar in variety to those which seemed to improve the yamaha this year, to work at least.

Nice post.

I know Preziosi said that, repeatedly; but that assertion always leaves me a little doubtful. If you think of it, the only radical choice that really helped them winning, has been Bridgestone (and electronics for some time, until the competition caught up).

Desmo as well, at least a bit, until the others went pneumatic; but it has always been in Ducati's DNA, that was no brainer and surely their problems do not come from that.

It is the other choices that are more difficult to understand in that "going radical" light, assuming that what you want is only to beat the competition; V 90 architecture is also in their DNA and a Ducati trademark, but has some shortcomings (length, less mass centralization).

Also things like stressed engine and subframes, first trellis then CF, are difficult to explain as "radical choices" aimed at gaining some specific advantage (what? it's doubtful there is any significant advantage to be found going that way. Maximum you can hope is to be as good as the others).

It seems these choices are dictated more by a wish to stay visibly different from anything Japanese. It's more marketing-driven. And not surprisingly, that's where they ran into some problems imho.

J4rn0 · Dec 9, 2010

Jumkie said:
What J4rno continues to consistently gloss over is the stark difference in how Ducati received feedback from its top rider in the past and now. Its ridiculous to read according to J4rno that Stoner didn't give the engineers good feedback because he's such a natural talent and doesn't analyze things. I'd say, same goes for Nicky's feedback, who was having the same front-end crashes. The reality (something that continues to be missed here) is that Ducati are willing to listen to Rossi as if it were the word of God while their other riders got no such luxury (yet I keep reading how Stoner etal didn't do a good job of development). Does anybody think that Rossi will tell them, look, change this fork tube to have less ribs on its outer shell and use carbon with less cross weave or instead use titanium on this part and etc.? NO! He tells them the problem he's experiencing and the engineers try to present solutions. And sometimes it's multiple attempts to solve one problem. This is the dynamic that was missing with the previous riders. I contend, they were all either second guessed or flatly not listened to or were not presented multiple solutions for the rider to pick from. The fact that J4rno says Stoner was so fast as to confuse the engineers is contradictory to what he's saying and further advances my point that Ducati go out of their way to present solutions. This is decidedly an advantage Rossi has, that they will move heaven and earth. I'm sure some solutions that they present will not be spot on, so what will they do? Present another 10 combinations. Why? Because he's Rossi. Ha not this been the message coming from Ducati itself? When did we hear them singing this tune? Did we ever hear the collective voices of Ducati singing in unison "We must improve for Stoner to be Stoner."???

Please do not forget what I said first: Stoner's biggest "fault" has been to win races anyway. Ducati were lulled into a sense of OK, we made it. For at least 2 years, 2007 and 2008. In 2009 they began having doubts, big ones. But that's when Stoner fell sick, which compounded the difficulties.

Also, before continuing endlessly complaining about Rossi being privileged

, try to consider that he arrives at Ducati in a situation in whichDucati are ready to do everything possible to fix the problems of their bike.

Do you think that if they had signed Lorenzo and Forcada instead of Rossi and Burgess, now, they would not be doing the same? I think yes, 100%. Ducati want to fix their bike, so that when Rossi leaves they can continue winning with other riders. They are not doing that for Rossi's sake, Jum... Drop this paranoia

Jumkie · Dec 9, 2010

J4rn0 said:
Do you think that if they had signed Lorenzo and Forcada instead of Rossi and Burgess, now, they would not be doing the same? I think yes, 100%. Ducati want to fix their bike, so that when Rossi leaves they can continue winning with other riders. They are not doing that for Rossi's sake, Jum... Drop this paranoia

Ah thanks for explaining it, undoubted this is insight from your secret source within Ducati. Its interesting to know that Ducati isn't doing this improvement for Rossi, but rather only using Rossi.

Wow dude, I think you out did yourself now.

Tekniqs · Dec 9, 2010

BarryMachine said:
Stoner and how he dealt with the Ducati's grip balance problem:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yw24pY6ScNA&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhFYYa6v0K8&feature=related

Its actually a shame he's left Ducati just for that, then again who knows maybe the Honda will be a bit loose too?

so.......because the front doesn't have ideal grip, he decided to drift/slide the bike.....essentially causing both the front and back to lose ideal grip...lol. i don't think showing this helps your case, it's impressive though

J4rn0 · Dec 9, 2010

Jumkie said:
Ah thanks for explaining it, undoubted this is insight from your secret source within Ducati. Its interesting to know that Ducati isn't doing this improvement for Rossi, but rather only using Rossi.

Wow dude, I think you out did yourself now.

Jum, seriously, do you really think a company pays a guy that kind of money to serve him? To be used by him?!

Sometimes you take my breath away.

Keshav · Dec 9, 2010

J4rn0 said:
Please do not forget what I said first: Stoner's biggest "fault" has been to win races anyway. Ducati were lulled into a sense of OK, we made it. For at least 2 years, 2007 and 2008. In 2009 they began having doubts, big ones. But that's when Stoner fell sick, which compounded the difficulties.

Also, before continuing endlessly complaining about Rossi being privileged

, try to consider that he arrives at Ducati in a situation in whichDucati are ready to do everything possible to fix the problems of their bike.

Do you think that if they had signed Lorenzo and Forcada instead of Rossi and Burgess, now, they would not be doing the same? I think yes, 100%. Ducati want to fix their bike, so that when Rossi leaves they can continue winning with other riders. They are not doing that for Rossi's sake, Jum... Drop this paranoia

A more accurate way of putting it - is that they are at last willing to take direction from the racer of choice

because they're going to face a marketing nightmare - if Rossi isn't competitive. They will no longer be

able to hang the blame on Melandri or Capirossi's failings or Stoner's health. People will say - "If Rossi

can't win on a Duc - no-one can."

Jumkie · Dec 9, 2010

J4rn0 said:
Jum, seriously, do you really think a company pays a guy that kind of money to serve him? To be used by him?!

Sometimes you take my breath away.

Oh, dumb me, and here I thought Ducati was "improving for Rossi to be Rossi." It must have got lost in translation...

Hey J4rno, how do you translate this into English?

"Obviously we've spent lots of time, you know, with the couple Eight-Hours we did, eating restaurants, doing all that ..... Uccio's just, you know what I would call it, Uccio's his ...... He just kind of does, makes everything easier, cleans, just makes Valentino's life a little bit easier. Now, I say he's his ...... If they read that, they're going to translate that a lot differently." Colin Edwards

frizzle · Dec 9, 2010

Jumkie said:
What J4rno continues to consistently gloss over is the stark difference in how Ducati received feedback from its top rider in the past and now. Its ridiculous to read according to J4rno that Stoner didn't give the engineers good feedback because he's such a natural talent and doesn't analyze things. I'd say, same goes for Nicky's feedback, who was having the same front-end crashes. The reality (something that continues to be missed here) is that Ducati are willing to listen to Rossi as if it were the word of God while their other riders got no such luxury (yet I keep reading how Stoner etal didn't do a good job of development). Does anybody think that Rossi will tell them, look, change this fork tube to have less ribs on its outer shell and use carbon with less cross weave or instead use titanium on this part and etc.? NO! He tells them the problem he's experiencing and the engineers try to present solutions. And sometimes it’s multiple attempts to solve one problem. This is the dynamic that was missing with the previous riders. I contend, they were all either second guessed or flatly not listened to or were not presented multiple solutions for the rider to pick from. The fact that J4rno says Stoner was so fast as to confuse the engineers is contradictory to what he's saying and further advances my point that Ducati go out of their way to present solutions. This is decidedly an advantage Rossi has, that they will move heaven and earth. I'm sure some solutions that they present will not be spot on, so what will they do? Present another 10 combinations. Why? Because he's Rossi. Ha not this been the message coming from Ducati itself? When did we hear them singing this tune? Did we ever hear the collective voices of Ducati singing in unison “We must improve for Stoner to be Stoner.”???

Great post Jumkie.

J4rno - Again I will repeat. Stoner & Hayden as well as the other sattelite riders have all had front end issues all year. Check the stats regarding how many times Ducati riders lost the front compared to their Japanese rivals.

Are you trying to say that they didn't know they had issues with it? Every man & his dog knew. Ducati failed to fix it not the riders. Why is that so hard to understand here? People post what they hope is happening in some of the motogp garages & then present them as fact.

J4rn0 · Dec 9, 2010

Frizzle said:
Great post Jumkie.

J4rno - Again I will repeat. Stoner & Hayden as well as the other sattelite riders have all had front end issues all year. Check the stats regarding how many times Ducati riders lost the front compared to their Japanese rivals.

Are you trying to say that they didn't know they had issues with it? Every man & his dog knew. Ducati failed to fix it not the riders. Why is that so hard to understand here? People post what they hope is happening in some of the motogp garages & then present them as fact.

It seems you have not read the thread -- I already said everything in these regards, bear with me. If you care, read the previous posts

J4rn0 · Dec 9, 2010

Jumkie said:
Oh, dumb me, and here I thought Ducati was "improving for Rossi to be Rossi." It must have got lost in translation...

Hey J4rno, how do you translate this into English?

C'mon Jum -- that's the headlines for the fans, you should know that. Ducati are looking forward. They know Rossi will stay only two years, or three if things go really well. They have to maximize their investment to make the bike more rideable, then continue with other riders. At Ducati they are not working for Rossi, but for Ducati; Ducati is not owned by Rossi, it will not end with Rossi... But your agenda is very evident, you always have to demonstrate that Rossi is a spoilt brat, that everybody gives him privileged treatment, etc. etc. Same old boring stuff...

P.S.: This was a nice thread, now it's been transformed in the usual nonsense. Bravo, mission accomplished!

Tom · Dec 10, 2010

Jumkie said:
Did we ever hear the collective voices of Ducati singing in unison “We must improve for Stoner to be Stoner.”???

Of course not. I'd like to see a quote from Preziozi saying Rossi must improve for Ducati to be Ducati, because surely he isn't going to enjoy copying the japs so that Rossi can win again.

Tom · Dec 10, 2010

J4rn0 said:
. But your agenda is very evident,

Your agenda is just as evident in almost all of your posts.

J4rn0 · Dec 10, 2010

Tom said:
Your agenda is just as evident in almost all of your posts.

Sorry, there is a difference -- Rossi is one of my favorite riders, 100% true, but have I ever started a thread about how great he is? Nope. I always try to speak of the sport. On the other hand, some are constantly mud-slinging Rossi even in threads, like this one, that were purely technical and were doing very well before falling in the usual boring Rossi/anti-Rossi pit.

Here we have a paradox like Jumkie who appears in this thread congratulating everybody on how good the thread is, and then immediately spoils it.

Some people are never satisfied until they can play again their broken anti-Rossi record. If you like it like this, well, enjoy

Tom · Dec 10, 2010

J4rn0 said:
Sorry, there is a difference -- Rossi is one of my favorite riders, 100% true, but have I ever started a thread about how great he is? Nope. I always try to speak of the sport. On the other hand, some are constantly mud-slinging Rossi even in threads, like this one, that were purely technical and were doing very well before falling in the usual boring Rossi/anti-Rossi pit.

Here we have a paradox like Jumkie who appears in this thread congratulating everybody on how good the thread is, and then immediately spoils it.

Some people are never satisfied until they can play again their broken anti-Rossi record. If you like it like this, well, enjoy

You may always try to speak of the sport, but just like Jumkie you do it from a very clear position which is reflected throughout your posts. That isn't necessarily a bad thing, because you are providing discusion and an insight into how you see things, unlike some who either chose not to or simply convey their message less successfuly. I find it odd that you claim Jumkie has spoiled this thread with a bit of conversation primarily with you.

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