What's Wrong with the Ducati?

Kropotkin writes another good article. If indeed they make the GP11 radically different and get it right then it will be a mighty achievement, particularly when (arguably) the usefulness of Rossi's feedback from Valencia is open to question. It's a bit of Catch-22 to say his apparent inability to post a fast time was because of the shoulder. If his shoulder really was the problem then you have to question them making radical changes on feedback from a rider whose ability to ride was so badly compromised. It tends to confirm that the shoulder was not the reason for his times and that he was able to get enough of an idea to believe there really was a major problem with the front. Hardly suprising given what Stoner was saying and the crashes suffered by all Ducati riders in 2010. Hope they do sort it for the sake of Rossi, Ducati and an interesting season.



http://motomatters.com/news/2010/12/07/engineers_assemble_in_bologna_to_work_on.html

If you haven't already read it jump over to motomatters and take a read:



http://motomatters.com/news/2010/12/07/engineers_assemble_in_bologna_to_work_on.html



Seems a major redesign is definitely in progress.



Points of interest to me:

1. Rossi didn't like the lack of rear traction on the 2010 M1 but likes it on the GP11.0

2. Rossi does not like the front end of the GP11.0 so a GP11.1 is being designed



Now what do these 2 points translate too?



1. If developing a bike was Rossi and JB forte and they are able to work magic with any bike why was the M1 lacking rear grip? After all they have been developing it for 4 seasons.



2. If a redesign occurs as looks likely then what impact will chasing front end feel have on the rear of the bike? It appears that on a bike they developed for 4 seasons they were not able to get both so why do they think they are going to be able to shoot blind in the dark with a new bike they haven't ridden fast and achieve the mysterious balanced front and rear grip? Now if both is not the goal are they simply trying to make the Ducati like a Yamaha then I am disappointed. We are lead to believe that Rossi is the GOAT. If he is the GOAT then why can he not ride the bike as it is designed. Someone else has.



I can see how this is going to end up if it all goes pear shaped and is why I comment a while back that the most pressure for 2011 is on Ducati. Already the narrative of the story is that the Ducati is no good. Well I agree and have done for 4 seasons but that is not the point. The point is that there is no pressure on the GOAT to prove he is the GOAT and ride a bike that someone crossed the finish line first on more times than an other rider on any other bike in the current era.



Now the response maybe that Rossi does not have to prove himself as he has ..... many WC's. Well as has been debated on here those WC's were never won against the flow of the tide but rather with the tide behind him.



Now I do not begrudge Rossi developing the bike but personally I would have liked to hear him say "the bike is a race winning bike and because I am Rossi I will win on it too and if I can not I will take responsibility for it" metaphorically speaking. My problem is we will never hear this as all failings will be Ducati's and all successes will be Rossi's.

Mental Anarchist said:

2. If a redesign occurs as looks likely then what impact will chasing front end feel have on the rear of the bike? It appears that on a bike they developed for 4 seasons they were not able to get both so why do they think they are going to be able to shoot blind in the dark with a new bike they haven't ridden fast and achieve the mysterious balanced front and rear grip?

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Agree totally with this. Did not mean to beat you to posting the link.

Some very valid points there Mental...does being the GOAT automatically mean that you must beable to ride any bike that you sit on flat out ? I personally dont think so. Quite a few people on this forum think that because Casey got on the Honda and went flat out the Rossi should beable to do the same on the Ducati. I dont agree. Ok, Casey has a unique ability to max out the bike after 2 laps but is that really the way to do it? We've seen so many times in the past how Casey rides over that fine line....then blames the front end of the bike. Surely if he spent a little more time getting up to speed and actually helping to develop the bike( by being on it for more than 5-6laps at a time, apart from the race) the problems with the front end might of been solved?



Every rider is different, Casey is unique in that he could ride the Ducati at the speed he did. He has a comparitvely wild style on the bike compared to Rossi though, does he not? I see it in DH mountain biking all the time, you get the guys who are completely flat out that tend to bin it or win it, then you get the guys who keep it smooth and wait for the speed to come. Oh, i dont buy the shoulder excuse either BTW, i just think that Vale didnt get feel comfortable on that bike, hence the plans to redesign/develop the machine. I also think that if Casey learns to ride on the right side of that fine line, he'll make everyone look silly....its a big ask though.

Lebowski said:

Agree totally with this. Did not mean to beat you to posting the link.

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No probs. Great minds ....

spooky said:

Some very valid points there Mental...does being the GOAT automatically mean that you must beable to ride any bike that you sit on flat out ? I personally dont think so. Quite a few people on this forum think that because Casey got on the Honda and went flat out the Rossi should beable to do the same on the Ducati. I dont agree. Ok, Casey has a unique ability to max out the bike after 2 laps but is that really the way to do it? We've seen so many times in the past how Casey rides over that fine line....then blames the front end of the bike. Surely if he spent a little more time getting up to speed and actually helping to develop the bike( by being on it for more than 5-6laps at a time, apart from the race) the problems with the front end might of been solved?



Every rider is different, Casey is unique in that he could ride the Ducati at the speed he did. He has a comparitvely wild style on the bike compared to Rossi though, does he not? I see it in DH mountain biking all the time, you get the guys who are completely flat out that tend to bin it or win it, then you get the guys who keep it smooth and wait for the speed to come. Oh, i dont buy the shoulder excuse either BTW, i just think that Vale didnt get feel comfortable on that bike, hence the plans to redesign/develop the machine. I also think that if Casey learns to ride on the right side of that fine line, he'll make everyone look silly....its a big ask though.

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I don't believe Rossi had to be at the top of the time sheets straight away to be the GOAT. What I do believe is that he should be able to learn to ride anything. After all GOAT stands for 'Greatest Of All Time' not 'Greatest On Best Bike Only' which would be GOBBO!



I agree that Stoner rides over the line, it is probably what has made him the only guy to be able to win on the Ducati. It is documented that to make the Ducati work you have to go past the first set of limits. I would argue that for what ever reason Rossi only rode the bike up to this first set of limits at Valencia and didn't take the bike into its operating zone. This is my point. If he was the GOAT he would have taken it into this zone and made it work rather than require that the bike be redesigned into a bike that is just the same as what he has always ridden.



My comment about Rossi riding with the tide behind him is this very point. Rossi has the power to make everything as perfect as it can be so he can win. Arguably no other rider has this power and therefore they are all swimming against the tide in some way.



What would have impressed me is if Rossi had of knuckled down and challenged himself on the bike rather than challenge everyone else in the pits to give him what he wants. It is this that I respect in satellite riders and the likes of Hayden, Stoner, DePuniet who haven't been handed it on a platter. They ride the .... out of what they are given.



Do you think Stoner blames the front end or does he say that he lost the front end for ...... reason? I think there is a difference.

spooky said:

Casey rides over that fine line....then blames the front end of the bike.

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And yet ...... he is the most successful rider, so far, in the 800 era

BarryMachine said:

And yet ...... he is the most successful rider, so far, in the 800 era

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Perhaps aye...not exactly dominated it though has he? If he had tried to sort the problem out instead of trying to ride round it he would more than likely of been miles ahead of everyone else. I think he's the fastest rider out there, but he has to learn to solve problems and not try to ride round them, which is exactly what Rossi does and has been doing for years.

Mental Anarchist said:

If he is the GOAT then why can he not ride the bike as it is designed. Someone else has.

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I know what you mean, but i'm not convinced that being able to ride any bike any how is a necessity for being the best. Just as Casey Stoner apparently has a unique ability to get the most from a flawed bike and get at it quickly, Rossi is able to extract not only the most he can from his bike but also get the best of the team and the people he works with/for. Now it's clear that Rossi has more resources available to him, he's got the best team in the business, he's got the stature to demand a massive financial input and he gives feedback which the engineers and factories do not doubt. But i don't believe those are things he has happened accross by accident, i think it's a position he's worked himself into and that is to his credit. He may not be the fastest rider anymore, he may not be the best at riding flawed bikes but he still has his unique qualities and to this date they have served him extremly well. Most of us are expecting them to continue serving him well for the immediate future.

spooky said:

Ok, Casey has a unique ability to max out the bike after 2 laps but is that really the way to do it? We've seen so many times in the past how Casey rides over that fine line....then blames the front end of the bike. Surely if he spent a little more time getting up to speed and actually helping to develop the bike( by being on it for more than 5-6laps at a time, apart from the race) the problems with the front end might of been solved?



Every rider is different, Casey is unique in that he could ride the Ducati at the speed he did.

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I agree, every rider is different. As you say Casey Stoner's approach as we know it seems to fall short compared to the more methodical approach of someone like Rossi or Lorenzo. But that is Stoner's way and it has shown to be successful enough to allow him to win a world title against Rossi and more 800cc races than anyone else. Casey's approach/methods may be responsible for many of his shortcomings but they have also yeilded him a significant amount of success so i chose to resist critisizing as long as it works for him.



On another note, about Rossi testing the Ducati at a less than impressive pace and the reliability of his feedback as a result of that. I'm not worried. He may not have pushed the bike to Stoner levels (where the bike apparently works well) but he will have ridden fast enough to discover for himself that the bike feels inadequate approaching that limit. I would guess that is the issue he (and Ducati) will want resolving the most because i would be willing to bet that Rossi doesn't want to go out and push for wins on a bike which gives him nothing before the absolute limit. He's actually ridden the bike at the speed which gives it the most problems, if they fix that then he (and hopefully the other riders) will be able to take the bike further.

Mental Anarchist said:

What would have impressed me is if Rossi had of knuckled down and challenged himself on the bike rather than challenge everyone else in the pits to give him what he wants. It is this that I respect in satellite riders and the likes of Hayden, Stoner, DePuniet who haven't been handed it on a platter. They ride the .... out of what they are given.

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I agree, it's great to admire those guys for riding what they are given and simply trying to get the best out of it. But motogp as a sport is far more complex than that and i'd bet any of those other riders would love to have the stature to have things built around them like Rossi does.

spooky said:

Perhaps aye...not exactly dominated it though has he? If he had tried to sort the problem out instead of trying to ride round it he would more than likely of been miles ahead of everyone else. I think he's the fastest rider out there, but he has to learn to solve problems and not try to ride round them, which is exactly what Rossi does and has been doing for years.

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All due respect Spooky but I think the opinion that Stoner has not tried to provide feedback so the bike could be developed or his feedback has been bad is one that is a little naive. It is quite well documented that all the riders who have thrown a leg over a factory Ducati have expressed feedback in regards to its issues and none of them including Casey it seems has been heard. In fact I think even now Stoner is the only rider qualified to give feedback because he is the only rider who has taken the bike regularly into its operating zone. Rossi generated development now does not prove that it was a deficiency in others including Stoner, I think it proves a deficiency in Ducati. Remember, Rossi decided not to go to Ducati in the past because of this very reason.

Mental Anarchist said:

Remember, Rossi decided not to go to Ducati in the past because of this very reason.

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I was about to say the exact same thing, good point.

J4rn0 said:

After the recent Jerez tests, Vitto Guareschi commented that they did not try any new parts (not yet ready) but they experimented more with weight distribution following Rossi's indications and, according to him, they reached a point "they had never reached before" in terms of user friendliness of the bike -- he said the bike felt easier and less tiring. He clocked 1.42.1 which is not too bad for a 40 yrs old ex test rider in a winter day. (track record is in the 1.39sh if I remember well).



The new parts expected for Sepang are practically the entire "frame" (steering head and swingarm) in carbon fiber, built with different (less) stiffness (no info about dimensions). If just by changing the weight distribution the present bike reacted well, with the new parts it could improve further.

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Honestly - this is slow-news-day, mountain-out-of-molehill, sound-bite, we-got-nothing-new-to-report puffery.

Stoner's been experimenting with weight distribution for three seasons. If you have a turd and you move it's

center of gravity back and forth and lower and higher - it's still essentially going to smell like a turd.

To make the Duc perform competitively - it needs to smell more like a Honda or a Yamaha.

Tom said:

I know what you mean, but i'm not convinced that being able to ride any bike any how is a necessity for being the best. Just as Casey Stoner apparently has a unique ability to get the most from a flawed bike and get at it quickly, Rossi is able to extract not only the most he can from his bike but also get the best of the team and the people he works with/for. Now it's clear that Rossi has more resources available to him, he's got the best team in the business, he's got the stature to demand a massive financial input and he gives feedback which the engineers and factories do not doubt. But i don't believe those are things he has happened accross by accident, i think it's a position he's worked himself into and that is to his credit. He may not be the fastest rider anymore, he may not be the best at riding flawed bikes but he still has his unique qualities and to this date they have served him extremly well. Most of us are expecting them to continue serving him well for the immediate future.



I agree, every rider is different. As you say Casey Stoner's approach as we know it seems to fall short compared to the more methodical approach of someone like Rossi or Lorenzo. But that is Stoner's way and it has shown to be successful enough to allow him to win a world title against Rossi and more 800cc races than anyone else. Casey's approach/methods may be responsible for many of his shortcomings but they have also yeilded him a significant amount of success so i chose to resist critisizing as long as it works for him.



On another note, about Rossi testing the Ducati at a less than impressive pace and the reliability of his feedback as a result of that. I'm not worried. He may not have pushed the bike to Stoner levels (where the bike apparently works well) but he will have ridden fast enough to discover for himself that the bike feels inadequate approaching that limit. I would guess that is the issue he (and Ducati) will want resolving the most because i would be willing to bet that Rossi doesn't want to go out and push for wins on a bike which gives him nothing before the absolute limit. He's actually ridden the bike at the speed which gives it the most problems, if they fix that then he (and hopefully the other riders) will be able to take the bike further.

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I agree that Rossi has worked to achieve his off track advantages.



As all I can do is speculate because I haven't ridden or developed a MotoGP bike so I wonder if by trying to fix these problems that present before you get the Ducati into its zone will they lower the maximum performance level of the bike? I guess this is part of where I am trying to get to. There is speed in the bike as proven by Stoner or if there is not then we need to be giving props to Stoner at an unprecedented level. I think Stoner is a phenomenal rider, perhaps even the best natural talent in history but if the bike is seriously flawed then there could be no doubt about his talent. What I would like to see is Rossi, as the GOAT, ride the bike as it is intended and get it into its zone. He has not done this and it appears we will never see if he could. In my opinion, or on my personal rating system this has knocked points of Rossi as a rider and as the GOAT. There is no challenge for me to see if Rossi can influence the redesign of the bike. This is a given and probably not even that special as the safe parameters of what works for a typical MotoGP bike are well known to Rossi, JB and probably Ducati. Ducati have always chosen not to walk this path when developing road bikes and MotoGP bikes. The challenge for me was to see Rossi conquer the Ducati.

Tom said:

I agree, it's great to admire those guys for riding what they are given and simply trying to get the best out of it. But motogp as a sport is far more complex than that and i'd bet any of those other riders would love to have the stature to have things built around them like Rossi does.

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I agree every rider would. What is a mind .... to me is if every rider did have the same 'stature' who would we be calling the GOAT?

J4rn0 said:

In the past they did not have Rossi and Burgess. The Ducati is sure to become the most "friendly" Ducati ever. If that will be enough, for any rider who is not Stoner, that's open to debate. Just wait and see... Guareschi's comments were encouraging though as he is the man who knows that bike better.

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Either that or Rossi will be the next Melandri, only with Rossi having such a huge fanbase, Ducati will be the ones to suffer, as opposed to when Melandri was there.



Where are you getting these comments from Guaresci from?



Remember he said simillar for Stoner just before Aragon, after Ducati finally redistributes the weight and Layout of the bike for Casey. Simillar to the "great developments" they are planning for Rossi. They aren't world beating changes you know and these aren't production machines, they come in "what size do you want it?"

Mental Anarchist said:

All due respect Spooky but I think the opinion that Stoner has not tried to provide feedback so the bike could be developed or his feedback has been bad is one that is a little naive. It is quite well documented that all the riders who have thrown a leg over a factory Ducati have expressed feedback in regards to its issues and none of them including Casey it seems has been heard. In fact I think even now Stoner is the only rider qualified to give feedback because he is the only rider who has taken the bike regularly into its operating zone. Rossi generated development now does not prove that it was a deficiency in others including Stoner, I think it proves a deficiency in Ducati. Remember, Rossi decided not to go to Ducati in the past because of this very reason.

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Very true! It seems then that having a rider of Rossi's stature has made Ducati realise the error of their ways. I mean Stoner has said on more than 1 occasion that Honda will be able to provide him with the necessary resources to go fast.... point taken!



Its nice to have a thread that doesnt bash any riders....

All this talk of a "generally more user friendly bike " is rubbish really. Its Motogp ........ the bikes are built and adjusted for each rider.

Mental Anarchist said:

As all I can do is speculate because I haven't ridden or developed a MotoGP bike so I wonder if by trying to fix these problems that present before you get the Ducati into its zone will they lower the maximum performance level of the bike?

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The same thing has crossed my mind, but i think if they do happen to lose some outright speed capability it may be a necessary loss. If they had kept on the same avenue they would be in a nearly identical position to what they have been for the last few years. I think starting from a stable, progressive base of a bike and finding the speed again from scratch will serve them better in the long run, that's what Rossi can help them with. I guess they'll all be hoping they don't lose too much of the outright speed because it may take time to find again. I think they'll be ok.

The challenge for me was to see Rossi conquer the Ducati.

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Yes i know it would have been nice to see Rossi try and beat Stoner at his own game. But that isn't Rossi's way, just as we wont see Stoner beating Rossi at his game. From the evidence we've seen Rossi wouldn't be able to do it, but how seriously you take that evidence is up to the individual

I agree every rider would. What is a mind .... to me is if every rider did have the same 'stature' who would we be calling the GOAT?

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I think Rossi continues to earn his position by maintaining such a high level of perormance. I don't think it was a matter of establishing himself and the rest being a free ride, and i don't think any other rider on the grid could have done the same. Look at Dani, who had a similarly meteoric rise to motogp, a promising rookie season and has the might of a factory and a main title sponsor behind him. It doesn't just happen, the rider needs to do their bit and do it better than anyone.

Mental Anarchist said:

I agree that Rossi has worked to achieve his off track advantages.



As all I can do is speculate because I haven't ridden or developed a MotoGP bike so I wonder if by trying to fix these problems that present before you get the Ducati into its zone will they lower the maximum performance level of the bike? I guess this is part of where I am trying to get to. There is speed in the bike as proven by Stoner or if there is not then we need to be giving props to Stoner at an unprecedented level. I think Stoner is a phenomenal rider, perhaps even the best natural talent in history but if the bike is seriously flawed then there could be no doubt about his talent. What I would like to see is Rossi, as the GOAT, ride the bike as it is intended and get it into its zone. He has not done this and it appears we will never see if he could. In my opinion, or on my personal rating system this has knocked points of Rossi as a rider and as the GOAT. There is no challenge for me to see if Rossi can influence the redesign of the bike. This is a given and probably not even that special as the safe parameters of what works for a typical MotoGP bike are well known to Rossi, JB and probably Ducati. Ducati have always chosen not to walk this path when developing road bikes and MotoGP bikes. The challenge for me was to see Rossi conquer the Ducati.







I agree every rider would. What is a mind .... to me is if every rider did have the same 'stature' who would we be calling the GOAT?

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Rossi is there to win championships not to prove himself based on silly challenges. Suppose he could ride it as fast as Stoner could ride (which comes with the front end wash out DNFs). What he would achieve? A 4th in the championship? I don't think that's what he want.



A very similar scenario was posted by some one sometime back.



Ago and Hailwood swapped bikes - Ago went slower on Hailwood's unsorted bike and Hailwood couldn't better his time in Ago better bike.



I think whatever Rossi did in Valencia test was with the mindset of changing the Ducati to a predictable bike rather than proving that he could ride Stoner's bike (I believe even if he tried he wouldn't have been as fast for some time).



~Renjith

Renjith said:

Rossi is there to win championships not to prove himself based on silly challenges. Suppose he could ride it as fast as Stoner could ride (which comes with the front end wash out DNFs). What he would achieve? A 4th in the championship? I don't think that's what he want.



A very similar scenario was posted by some one sometime back.



Ago and Hailwood swapped bikes - Ago went slower on Hailwood's unsorted bike and Hailwood couldn't better his time in Ago better bike.



I think whatever Rossi did in Valencia test was with the mindset of changing the Ducati to a predictable bike rather than proving that he could ride Stoner's bike (I believe even if he tried he wouldn't have been as fast for some time).



~Renjith

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If Rossi was there to just win championships he would still be on a Honda. Rossi is ego driven like all champions and there is far more to being a legend than just winning championships.



I don't agree with your comment about winning on Stoner's bike as I don't agree that it is Stoner's bike. It is Ducati's bike. This is why riders and come and gone with the general complaint that Ducati did not listen. This is why Rossi did not switch in the past. There are 2 challenges for Rossi to choose from 1) ride the Ducati as it was designed to be ridden or 2) develop the Ducati in to a red Yamaha. In my opinion option 1 requires a great rider where as option 2 requires a great influencer. I am of no illusion as to Rossi's capability to influence a team to provide him what he wants (however his recent failing to get Yamaha to do this could cause some doubt into his capacity in this area in that camp) as he has proven to be the best at this game. I wanted to see if Rossi could ride something idiosyncratic and wild.