This is good post that gets close to the heart of what I believe is the problem. But even then, after watching Stoner at PI I think he goes beyond using rear brake to get grip to the front, I think he is a supreme at using the throttle to balance the front/rear grip ( a level over what the average may do with the rear brake ). This is something of a base cornering requirement of riding dirt track in Aust. ( and he started doing it as a kid) .... it may also elplain why Spies doesn't "get it yet" ( which bodes well for him when he does ) Its a different style of riding and is allways on the edge, but a way of playng with or utlizing whats happening within the edge zone.
I agree,he seems to control alot with the amount of throttle (the right hand)and sometimes a spinning realwheel too.
The wierd thing is he seems to want the front to slide,but predictable slide that has as big aera before the bike collapses as possible.(Hard to explain in English.)
I don't race bikes and have no real knowledge of this but in moto GP atleast,every rider slides the front more or less just a little right?
Maybe he thought the 2009 forks were more predictable.Stiffer sideways,and was easier to get to slide?I don't know.
Bloody Hollywood, can't even keep their hands off sport.
Wonder which movie studio will hide this one
Gaz
There is no doubt rossi is getting different treatment, but whether ducati listened to stoner is a different issue and not really related to rossi I would have thought. The current effort may even be substantially sponsor driven, with marlboro quite definitely being unhappy with stoner last year, unfairly in my view, not that I would have any expectation of fairness or any ethics at all from a tobacco company. Certainly in stricly commercial terms ducati's brand was not being helped by the bike's performances whatever the aetiology of the problems, and marlboro certainly seemed to feel they were not getting the return they wanted for their sponsorship dollars.
As I said previously it is unfair in some sort of absolute terms that rossi gets more resources, but catch 22 applies and the resources would not be available without him. I can't see how this is rossi's fault or what he should do differently. I actually think it worked both ways anyway, with stoner making the decision to go probably last year , being unhappy with ducati's egineering/development direction and with marlboro's attitude to him, well before signing rossi was anything like a done deal . Stoner seems to have made a deliberate decision not to be sponsor friendly in any case, not something I personally have a problem with, but this has some consequences in terms of how attractive he is to teams compared with more sponsor /media attuned riders, not that this will matter if he comes out and wins the title for hrc next year.
Joined Sep 2006
3K Posts | 4+
Leading
This is what Jumkie PM'd me when I asked for pictures:I suppose my point was too complex for you to understand.Would you like me to draw pictures?
I think it might be him & povol.
agreed mostly, and well said. Ducati certainly have been hondaish with their 'bike wins rider holds on' in the past, but with the current immense level of bike setup required with these 800's, rider input for development is possibly more important than ever. I certainly don't beleive that they didn't listen to Casey however, maybe it all just got 'lost in translation'
And baz, yes most wins, on the flip side he is also viaing for most crashes too, not the best approach to regaining the title and I'm sure not the development road Casey wanted to be on, I guess the question is how much of it was Ducatis fault, and how much was his?
This is what Jumkie PM'd me when I asked for pictures:
I think it might be him & povol.
don't think so, this is way too advanced
Joined Jun 2007
10K Posts | 1K+
Norah Head
Thats not a question any more ...... thats what the Rossi tests at Valencia showed
Stoner rides bike to a pretty impressive second at Valencia race ( actually leading for a while)
Rossi gets on same bike and it looks almost unrideable ( 3rd last on the time sheets at tests )
.
Thats not a question any more ...... thats what the Rossi tests at Valencia showed
Stoner rides bike to a pretty impressive second at Valencia race ( actually leading for a while)
Rossi gets on same bike and it looks almost unrideable ( 3rd last on the time sheets at tests )
.
I would have thought the question was answered in the results of the last three seasons.....no valid comparison can be made from a test, unless your......well you
Joined Jun 2007
10K Posts | 1K+
Norah Head
Silly answer again.
For the time Stoner has been on Ducati he has been way out in front of any other Ducati rider. But still folks thought even Stoner was inhibited by the Ducati ,,,,,,, you boppers disagreed and proferred that if Rossi was on the Ducati he would be faster than Stoner.
Last round of Valencia Stoner gets a second, Rossi a third?
A few days later and Stoner tops the charts on a new Honda and Rossi is on the Ducati and he has a deplorable run in 17th?
Answer ........ there is something wrong with the Ducati.
Either that or your are saying Rossi is the next Melandri.
Joined Aug 2007
11K Posts | 3K+
Pomona NY
Silly answer again.
For the time Stoner has been on Ducati he has been way out in front of any other Ducati rider. But still folks thought even Stoner was inhibited by the Ducati ,,,,,,, you boppers disagreed and proferred that if Rossi was on the Ducati he would be faster than Stoner.
Last round of Valencia Stoner gets a second, Rossi a third?
A few days later and Stoner tops the charts on a new Honda and Rossi is on the Ducati and he has a deplorable run in 17th?
Answer ........ there is something wrong with the Ducati.
Either that or your are saying Rossi is the next Melandri.
There are some who say I'm a "hater" - and still I have to say, ............ Show me a quote from anyone on this site
who has even implied this. You're just making this .... up.
......... That isn't even close to a fact. They were quite publicly negotiating with Lorenzo just last year remember
what are you on about?
Joined Aug 2007
11K Posts | 3K+
Pomona NY
I started this thread titled "What's Wrong with Ducati", how can you say I am "conveniently" ignoring that "Ducati MUST make the Ducati less idiosyncratic and more rider friendly"?
You say they must make it work because, now, they cannot afford to fail with Rossi on board. Great.
Why did they hire Rossi then, in the first place? Pay all that money, only to find themselves in such a one-way tunnel? They have lost Stoner -- too bad for them -- but why not just be happy with Nicky who's already fast, and fix the bike for him -- maybe teamed with De Puniet.
If it was only a matter of acting decisively on the problem, only a matter of will, why waste money on Rossi? Invest more in bike development, hire more engineers rather... No?
The script is absurd unless you accept the fact that they hired Rossi because they think he is the only one who can remove their stumbling block and make their bike progress. Whether or not Ducati's choice is right, we cannot know yet. But that is their motive, for sure. And they are doing it for Ducati, not for Rossi.
The reasons for hiring Rossi are all crystal clear. Big name + lots of sponsorship money.
They'd have taken Lorenzo because he's so talented - but it wasn't to be.
They have to have one major talent - because they are drowning in poor results.
Secondly - you ask why not just keep Nicky and develop the bike around him?
Answer - they don't believe he has the development skills and moreover his
results since 2006 have been at best mediocre. Hayden is clearly not the
one to bring them up to speed.
Joined Jun 2007
10K Posts | 1K+
Norah Head
When somebody says "proferred", it means that they have put forward the idea, so what "quote" do you actually want me to look for
To save me bothering searching back
Boppers everywhere are saying Stoner is faster than Rossi on the Ducati .......... lets see the reaction to that and see whos "bullshitting
I mainly agree, and indeed my focus as a stoner fan now is the honda and how he will perform on it ; I am not looking for rossi to fail on the ducati, and would be very happy for him to finish second in the championship in 2011
Whether stoner will crash on the honda will depend on how good the bike is; whilst I agree with the jury still being out on whether he can develop a bike, there is evidence he can do quite well and ride without error if the bike is sufficently good, even if only in his hands, as was the case in 2007. If the bike is not fast enough, whether through his fault or not, history suggests he will crash chasing wins even if the bike is incapable of same.
Initial signs at the valencia test were very positive, and his smiles after the test were telling from someone who very much wears his heart on his sleeve. My (biased obviously) interpretation was that this was at least partly due to him having tested a bike which he doesn't have to fight for almost every inch of the track to extract speed. I attribute some of the post-race demeanour of recent years which you guys deride to the extreme focus and psychological level required to ride that thing. Even rossi who has no peer for psychological strength seems to be set on radical changes rather than riding the ducati as it is, and nicky hayden, not known for wimpiness , also had a fairly telling reaction on first encountering the bike.
Interesting view, and one I fully recognise as being in reply (retort?) to the views espoused by BM and as such taking the comment a bit that way.
But, I would suspect that the comment is incorrect as it would seem to be obvious that there was some issue with the Ducati throughout 2010 given the number of crashes experienced by all riders of that machine. As such, the problems would seem to have afflicted all and as such there would be no responsibility upon Stoner to prove otherwise.
The interesting point for me (and one borne out by a graph I saw somewhere) was that near all of the single Ducati rider crashes (ie, when not involved in multiple bike pileups) were of a front end lose variety/type. This would indicate a flaw in some level of the equipment and not the rider/s of that specific machine.
Now, the alternate (and still somewhat populous) view would be that the Ducati was vastly responsible for Stoner's success and if one takes this view it is certainly now time for Stoner to show otherwise given he is now on a bike of renowned pedigree.
For mine, he has the ability to ride and develop a motorcycle, albeit his development abilities may well be within a small operational sphere that very few (if indeed any) rider can enter but this is not a flaw of his, nor should it be seen as such.
Gaz
Joined Aug 2008
6K Posts | 748+
Thailand
BTW its proffer if you're going to get definitive on us. What Kesh is looking for is the quote where someone "put forward the idea" as you so eloquently define it. Otherwise it would appear as if the idea was proffered from your statement and NOT from some mythical other members...
Joined Jun 2007
10K Posts | 1K+
Norah Head
So now you are implying Stoner is faster than Rossi and that all the boppers have allways thought that
