So now you are implying Stoner is faster than Rossi and that all the boppers have allways thought that
9 world titles
2 emoticons
9 world titles
2 emoticons
- Joined
- Aug 27, 2007
- Messages
- 11,374
- Location
- Pomona NY
When somebody says "proferred", it means that they have put forward the idea, so what "quote" do you actually want me to look for?
. So you are suggesting you have seen the opposite, ie. the Boppers were saying that Stoner would be faster than Rossi? ( though I must note that since Valencia this has changed a bit ).
To save me bothering searching back.............. lets look at it from another angle ........
Boppers everywhere are saying Stoner is faster than Rossi on the Ducati .......... lets see the reaction to that and see whos "bullshitting
Just show me a post by anyone here who has "proferred" this idea. Such a post does not exist.
- Joined
- Jun 26, 2007
- Messages
- 9,515
- Location
- Norah Head
Look at the post above Kesh ........
IRMC ......... its non-stop.
Look at the post above Kesh ........
IRMC ......... its non-stop.
What ever you or any one else say BM, you can't deny the facts
Look at the post above Kesh ........IRMC ......... its non-stop.
For Curve
and kesh
'Ignore him at your Peril'
Hopefully second time round you'll get it Baz.....I know it takes a while
- Joined
- Jun 26, 2007
- Messages
- 9,515
- Location
- Norah Head
What ever you or any one else say BM, you can't deny the facts
And which of your idea of a "fact" might that be ?
- Joined
- Jun 26, 2007
- Messages
- 9,515
- Location
- Norah Head
Oh I doubt it Talp, much of what you say is "beyond my ken", I assume this is no different. Besides much of what you see as "astounding" is mere "meh" to me
- Joined
- Feb 22, 2008
- Messages
- 48
I just posted this is J4rno's other thread about Burgess too.
I hand typed this from Australian Motorcycle News, so may have some typos.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Interview with Burgess
by Michael Scott
Yamaha gained kudos for sportsmanship when it released Rossi from his contract to test the Ducati he will ride next year. I believe the praise was gained quite cheaply. If Yamaha had refused, then it would have looked as mean & nasty as Honda did when it said no back at the end of 2003, when Rossi moved over to Yamaha. But by saying yes, Yamaha not only came out looking like the nice guy, it did so without having given either Ducati or the rider very much to go on.
Rossi had just two short days on the bike at Valencia. A track he doesn't much like for the same reasons as it is not an especially good track for testing - it's slow and highly technical, scrutinising only limited aspects of performance. Front-end fidelity in particular and Rossi discovered it is an area where the Ducati is lacking compared with his Yamaha. Well, Casey Stoner could have told him that anyway after five front-end crashes.
That was the reason why his laptimesput him right at the back. The other was his injured shoulder. Tired & weakened by three days of racing, Valentino was not able to give the Ducati the highly aggressive control inputs it requires to get the from tyre working. And then they all went home.
We will see just how much Ducati learned about how to tailor the bike for the style of it's new rider. And we will also see how quickly Rossi will be able to adapt his own style to suit the rather quirky red bike.
Ducati's changes will be more crucial and more difficult to achieve. Especially in the time scale that means Rossi will not ride again until after the end of January, with only a couple of monthsto go before the first race, which is not long in terms of production lead times. And he will have just three tests under his belt - two in Malaysia and one in Qatar.
Everybody lays great store on the fact that Rossi and Burgess wrought a miraculous change to the under dog Yamaha seven years ago. They took a loser bike and won not only the championship but also, classically, the first race. It's important to give Yamaha's engineers a big part of the credit. All the same, role of Burgess and Rossi , the combination was crucial in turning a good idea into a race winning bike.
I spoke to Burgess about any parallels between the task they faced then and the nw one of 2011. He couldn't think of many. For one thing, the Ducati is a proven race winner while the Yamaha certainly was not. For another, the rider is older and needs to prove the motivation is as strong as ever, but also his shoulder. For Burgess, the shoulder remains the biggest concern.
But the greatest difference lies int he amount of testing available. EVen though Honda refused to release Valentino until after 31st December, there was at the time no restriction on testing and they were able to get straight on with the job. Since the South African GP was not until mid-April, this gave the team more than three months with unlimited access to testing to bring the M1 to a competitive state.
With Valentino laid up recuperating, you might think it doesn't make much difference that no testing is allowed until February. But Burgess would be happy at least to join in with some preliminary testingwith current Ducati rider Nicky Hayden, whose own record on the difficult Duke was a great deal better in 2010 than the year before.
Nicky is fast enough to make such tests worthwhile, opined Burgess, but there would simply be no point in pursuing the same exercise with Ducati test rider Franco Battaini. After all, the Ducati test team has been "testing their brains out" bashing round and round Mugello, Burgess explains. And the only really good result they've had there, Stoner's win in 2009, was in a wet-and-dry race where normal rules don't apply.
"You've got to test with the guys who are going to race the bikes", he said.
Burgess will have another unfamiliar task, however, with the new bike. The Japanese companies, he said, would put a great deal of development work into the chassis.
"But when you look at Ducati, it's not a normal sort of motorcycle in the sense of what most motorcycles companies have out there. It doesn't have a chassis. There have to be other things to work on and adjust to give the rider what he wants. But it takes more than two days of testing to get on top of everything."
It all looks as though at least the early part of the season will be a bit hit or miss for Valentino and the Duke. Don't rule out the hits, but don't be surprised if he misses, because the restrictions on testing, as BUrgess explains, have turned the World Championship into a different sort of game.
"Back then we had loads of tests, but we're there to work, not go on holiday. We embark on improving the level of the sport from a rider's and a manufacturer's point of view… you need to test to do that.
Now it's just a television show. You run what you brung and if you're not ready, well, bad luck."
I hand typed this from Australian Motorcycle News, so may have some typos.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Interview with Burgess
by Michael Scott
Yamaha gained kudos for sportsmanship when it released Rossi from his contract to test the Ducati he will ride next year. I believe the praise was gained quite cheaply. If Yamaha had refused, then it would have looked as mean & nasty as Honda did when it said no back at the end of 2003, when Rossi moved over to Yamaha. But by saying yes, Yamaha not only came out looking like the nice guy, it did so without having given either Ducati or the rider very much to go on.
Rossi had just two short days on the bike at Valencia. A track he doesn't much like for the same reasons as it is not an especially good track for testing - it's slow and highly technical, scrutinising only limited aspects of performance. Front-end fidelity in particular and Rossi discovered it is an area where the Ducati is lacking compared with his Yamaha. Well, Casey Stoner could have told him that anyway after five front-end crashes.
That was the reason why his laptimesput him right at the back. The other was his injured shoulder. Tired & weakened by three days of racing, Valentino was not able to give the Ducati the highly aggressive control inputs it requires to get the from tyre working. And then they all went home.
We will see just how much Ducati learned about how to tailor the bike for the style of it's new rider. And we will also see how quickly Rossi will be able to adapt his own style to suit the rather quirky red bike.
Ducati's changes will be more crucial and more difficult to achieve. Especially in the time scale that means Rossi will not ride again until after the end of January, with only a couple of monthsto go before the first race, which is not long in terms of production lead times. And he will have just three tests under his belt - two in Malaysia and one in Qatar.
Everybody lays great store on the fact that Rossi and Burgess wrought a miraculous change to the under dog Yamaha seven years ago. They took a loser bike and won not only the championship but also, classically, the first race. It's important to give Yamaha's engineers a big part of the credit. All the same, role of Burgess and Rossi , the combination was crucial in turning a good idea into a race winning bike.
I spoke to Burgess about any parallels between the task they faced then and the nw one of 2011. He couldn't think of many. For one thing, the Ducati is a proven race winner while the Yamaha certainly was not. For another, the rider is older and needs to prove the motivation is as strong as ever, but also his shoulder. For Burgess, the shoulder remains the biggest concern.
But the greatest difference lies int he amount of testing available. EVen though Honda refused to release Valentino until after 31st December, there was at the time no restriction on testing and they were able to get straight on with the job. Since the South African GP was not until mid-April, this gave the team more than three months with unlimited access to testing to bring the M1 to a competitive state.
With Valentino laid up recuperating, you might think it doesn't make much difference that no testing is allowed until February. But Burgess would be happy at least to join in with some preliminary testingwith current Ducati rider Nicky Hayden, whose own record on the difficult Duke was a great deal better in 2010 than the year before.
Nicky is fast enough to make such tests worthwhile, opined Burgess, but there would simply be no point in pursuing the same exercise with Ducati test rider Franco Battaini. After all, the Ducati test team has been "testing their brains out" bashing round and round Mugello, Burgess explains. And the only really good result they've had there, Stoner's win in 2009, was in a wet-and-dry race where normal rules don't apply.
"You've got to test with the guys who are going to race the bikes", he said.
Burgess will have another unfamiliar task, however, with the new bike. The Japanese companies, he said, would put a great deal of development work into the chassis.
"But when you look at Ducati, it's not a normal sort of motorcycle in the sense of what most motorcycles companies have out there. It doesn't have a chassis. There have to be other things to work on and adjust to give the rider what he wants. But it takes more than two days of testing to get on top of everything."
It all looks as though at least the early part of the season will be a bit hit or miss for Valentino and the Duke. Don't rule out the hits, but don't be surprised if he misses, because the restrictions on testing, as BUrgess explains, have turned the World Championship into a different sort of game.
"Back then we had loads of tests, but we're there to work, not go on holiday. We embark on improving the level of the sport from a rider's and a manufacturer's point of view… you need to test to do that.
Now it's just a television show. You run what you brung and if you're not ready, well, bad luck."
Goatboy
The Worlds Forgotten Boy
- Joined
- Sep 6, 2006
- Messages
- 2,554
- Location
- Leading
If 2007 wasn't the exception I would gladly agree but it is, 2006, 08, 09 & 10 all followed a similar pattern. Which he now has the chance to break on his return to Honda, which then of course will lead on to 2012 when he will have to develop the Honda & answer those questions as well. So how can we know how he will perform after just one test?
- Joined
- Aug 8, 2010
- Messages
- 1,631
- Location
- Earth
Stoner just got finished learning how to engineer and manufacturer carbon fibre, don't tell me know he is going to have to learn how to engineer and weld aluminium again for 2012.
Goatboy
The Worlds Forgotten Boy
- Joined
- Sep 6, 2006
- Messages
- 2,554
- Location
- Leading
I heard they were going to stick a broom up his ... & make him sweep the floor at the same time tooStoner just got finished learning how to engineer and manufacturer carbon fibre, don't tell me know he is going to have to learn how to engineer and weld aluminium again for 2012.
He was not without problems in 2009 obviously, but putting the bike down at a high rate was not one of them. One crash as I recall, the fabled valencia warm-up lap crash, later attributed to a faulty or non-applied tyre warmer which you may choose not to believe.
Goatboy
The Worlds Forgotten Boy
- Joined
- Sep 6, 2006
- Messages
- 2,554
- Location
- Leading
It still holds good though, he now has the chance to replicate 2007 & give us a better picture of who he is.
- Joined
- Oct 16, 2006
- Messages
- 24,726
- Location
- Your Mom's House
First of all, thanks for typing this out for us!
Second, I mentioned in the "what's wrong with the Duc" thread that I believed it was the unique core of the bike and its use of the engine as part of the frame, that is the chassis. Anderes also mentioned the frame.
Third, it appears its gonna be a long "80 seconds". But I'm confident they will get it done.
- Joined
- Oct 16, 2006
- Messages
- 24,726
- Location
- Your Mom's House
Yes, correct..in a way. Its a good thing he's fast on his own because I doubt Honda would scramble to move heaven and earth like Ducati is now. The activity and rush that Ducati is under is palpable, wouldn't you say?
Here is something that you guys might find interesting. I know you will like it Goatboy, and other diehard Rossi fans, (as well as Talps types) as you will have something to hang your hat on other than the, "it was the shoulder" apology.
This was his take: He said, Stoner had different pressure and goals in the test than Rossi. Casey in going to a situation that required him to assert his position immediately because his biggest obstacle at Honda would/will come from within, specifically the Pedrosa-Puig dynamic. Honda have all but announced that they will not be developing much for the 2011 bike. Casey knew this going in and had to dominate the test to assure his place on the team in what little development Honda is willing to accomplish. He went on to say...
Rossi on the other hand, has zero pressure in assuring the direction of development. Not only does he not have this pressure, but Ducati had already committed to develop this year as if their lives depended on it. That means Rossi came in knowing that he would drive all development and that the magnitude of their commitment was limitless. So he was under no pressure to top the lap charts, unlike Stoner, who if he didn't would be hampered by his status in the team all year. Rossi's status is unquestionable, so his goal was to understand the machine, and concentrate on how they need to change it not to set the fastest lap.
So he said this difference in goal drove the tone and approach of the test hence the very different results. He mentioned that nobody should be under any false allusion that Rossi didn't try to push the front end of the Ducati, but simply found a system that was not conducive to confidence that would have enabled him to clock in a faster lap time. This was the big red flag, and frankly, not one that was a big secret going in. He said the thing is people just are unwilling to believe that anything can hold Rossi back because people are conditioned to think he's superhuman. But the front end problem was very real, and that he suspects Rossi will concentrate on this problem before he is willing to crash testing its limits.
BTW, this guy has experience working in the AMA too. I don't want to give too much away since he told me a few things in confidence (nothing I'm talking about here is what he asked me to keep to myself though). He' personally knows the lone American working now for Rossi. He also told me something that I we've all talked about before; and that is that GP is very interested in the sponsorship individual riders can bring to Dorna itself and to the team. He said he feels this trumps talent. We did argue about a few things though. He's not much of a Hayden fan. He said he doesn't think Nicky is very smart. At which time I thought, .... this guy he doesn't know ..... Anyway, he did throw me a bone, even though he didn't think Nicky is smart he did believe he was talented more than people think. (Haha, so I went from wanting to go talk to the fat chick at the BBQ to, "would you like me to get you a beer..") Part of his thinking was that Nicky doesn't have any money and doesn't bring much sponsorship, so the one reason he thinks they employ him is because he can ride with the best of them. I asked him what about being American. He assured me that Dorna does have their quota to have an American in the series, but Nicky came in when there was already two, so filling a quota was not part of Nicky's ascension in his opinion. I was like, yeah, go on... He said make no mistake, Nicky is fast but GP doesn't have a place for all the fast guys, they want fast and sponsorship.
He was very high on Spies though, and said he thinks hes one of the smartest guys on the grid. He's very "cerebral" as he put it. In his opinion, he thinks Spies will be a title contender this coming season. He said its a perfect storm, he said hes on the best package in the paddock, better than Honda even, and most people are focused on Stoner and Lorenzo. So he thinks the little pressure he does have will allow him to really think through races and the results will come. I asked him what he thought about Spies talent compared to Nicky. He said about the same, except Spies has a few things in his favor, one, Spies is very smart, and two, his mom is very shrewd, two thinks that Nicky does not have.
Oh, BTW, I got more. I sat with a few guys for a couple of hours. For you AMA guys, you'll be ticked to learn I met Martin Cardenas' mentor of sorts. Awkward. Haha. Nah, he actually turned out to be a nice guy. No Cardenas himself wasn't there, but that would have been funny.
Nobody does know the answer to this as it simply is (or was) one test, not a pre-season of testing where one could reasonably base an opinion on the entire test results.
My opinion is, was and always has been that one single test, just like one single race does not make or break an individual in terms of their ability. For me a single test result, whilst impressive (in the case of CS) does not mean that he will win the title, nor that he will even be close, it just means that he did good on the day (and yes Talps et al, the reverse is also true)
I suspect that Honda hired CS with the likely thought that MiniP would be heading elsewhere and such they wanted an 'insurance policy' if you will, so I do not think Honda will throw resources at CS, besides he does not seem the type that needs them to go fast. His problem will be tyres and their suitability to his riding style as he is most definitely a front-end rider and where he can get confidence he will be dangerous, but if that confidence fails then he will be at the back end of the front runners.
I do however believe that the guy has development ability, just that we may not have seen evidence of it (good or bad) as he has not really needed to show it given the view that he could ride a donkey to a lap record.
Gaz
- Joined
- Aug 30, 2008
- Messages
- 124
Rossi is da best! Suck on dat chit hater boyzzzzz! 9 World Championships! Count 'em! 9!
Oh, you got a problem wid dat chit, huh? OK, I'll count 'em wid you.........hang on, just a sec..........dammit.......hell, who'd have thought you could be born with a dozen fingers, like every other mutha on this planet, and by votin' age you're down to 8? Dat's sum sick chit right dere. Anyways, Rossi is DA MAN!!
If you give us a minute, I'll have these muthafuckin' boots off....den it won't matter if da man wins a dozen titles!!!! Suck on my fat one you loosers!!
Oh, you got a problem wid dat chit, huh? OK, I'll count 'em wid you.........hang on, just a sec..........dammit.......hell, who'd have thought you could be born with a dozen fingers, like every other mutha on this planet, and by votin' age you're down to 8? Dat's sum sick chit right dere. Anyways, Rossi is DA MAN!!
If you give us a minute, I'll have these muthafuckin' boots off....den it won't matter if da man wins a dozen titles!!!! Suck on my fat one you loosers!!
Interesting, and agrees with what many of us thought and said on here. I think stoner not only needed results to have status regarding devlopment direction, but also to make sure he has the top-spec bike with latest pronouncements from honda apparently indicating that peedrosa, stoner, dovi and simoncelli will all have factory bikes, and as we all know some factory bikes are more equal than others. I think this is also why he pushed so hard late in the season even though this involved crashing.
Tthe only thing I wonder about is honda not putting much into next year; you would think they would be going all-out to win the last year of the formula they apprently largely devised, and if not honda(the parent company) must really be broke.
- Joined
- Oct 16, 2006
- Messages
- 24,726
- Location
- Your Mom's House
