What's Wrong with the Ducati?

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J4rn0 said:
Man, don't be carried away by your own eloquence. There is no development myth out there.



The reason why "they" listen to Rossi is very practical. His feedback has generally proved to be accurate, over a long and successful career. Remember Furusawa? He said "What Valentino says always corresponds with the data. He's so precise. The few times my data did not correspond with what he said, I double checked and Valentino was always right. Always". That's the key to this issue. You think Furusawa is a Rossi bopper?
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Thinking of Stoner, you made a bell ring for me. You are right, Stoner wasn't immediately fast in his first test with the Ducati. But then he turned the bike upside down, and won a WC and 23 races.



Now, Rossi has not been immediately fast on the Ducati. He is now turning the Ducati upside down... Hmmm this sounds promising
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Not entirely true.

This was his second day on an 800cc Ducati. Not brilliant but he was still very quick straight off the bat.



1. Dani Pedrosa SPA Repsol Honda Team (800cc) 1min 32.66 secs

2. Chris Vermeulen AUS Rizla Suzuki MotoGP (800cc) 1min 32.69 secs

3. Casey Stoner AUS Ducati Marlboro Team (800cc) 1min 32.94 secs

4. John Hopkins USA Rizla Suzuki MotoGP (800cc) 1min 32.95 secs

5. Loris Capirossi ITA Ducati Marlboro Team (800cc) 1min 33.01 secs

6. Nicky Hayden USA Repsol Honda Team (800cc) 1min 33.03 secs

7. Alex Barros BRA Pramac d'Antin MotoGP (990cc) 1min 33.20 secs

8. Valentino Rossi ITA Camel Yamaha Team (800cc) 1min 33.78 secs

9. Jeremy McWilliams GBR Ilmor SRT (800cc) 1min 35.90 secs

10. Andrew Pitt AUS Ilmor SRT (800cc) 1min 36.40 secs

11. Nobuatsu Aoki JPN Rizla Suzuki MotoGP (800cc) 1min 37.30 secs



Having said that I think by Qatar they will have a lot more stable Ducati to work with.

It's way too early to panic.
 
Frizzle said:
Not entirely true.

This was his second day on an 800cc Ducati. Not brilliant but he was still very quick straight off the bat.



1. Dani Pedrosa SPA Repsol Honda Team (800cc) 1min 32.66 secs

2. Chris Vermeulen AUS Rizla Suzuki MotoGP (800cc) 1min 32.69 secs

3. Casey Stoner AUS Ducati Marlboro Team (800cc) 1min 32.94 secs

4. John Hopkins USA Rizla Suzuki MotoGP (800cc) 1min 32.95 secs

5. Loris Capirossi ITA Ducati Marlboro Team (800cc) 1min 33.01 secs

6. Nicky Hayden USA Repsol Honda Team (800cc) 1min 33.03 secs

7. Alex Barros BRA Pramac d'Antin MotoGP (990cc) 1min 33.20 secs

8. Valentino Rossi ITA Camel Yamaha Team (800cc) 1min 33.78 secs

9. Jeremy McWilliams GBR Ilmor SRT (800cc) 1min 35.90 secs

10. Andrew Pitt AUS Ilmor SRT (800cc) 1min 36.40 secs

11. Nobuatsu Aoki JPN Rizla Suzuki MotoGP (800cc) 1min 37.30 secs



Having said that I think by Qatar they will have a lot more stable Ducati to work with.

It's way too early to panic.
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Of course I was joking... Anyway nice of you to dig out the times. No question about Stoner being the quickest rider in adapting to whatever bike they give him, and be fast immediately.





Googling it a bit I found his statement after those tests:



[font="verdana, arial"]"I am really satisfied with the way these first two days on the Ducati GP7 have gone," smiled Casey. "Everything went well and I made good progress. I'm getting used to the new 'package' of bike and tyres and first impressions are positive. The more I spend on the bike the more I get used to it and things become easier and more natural. The 800 seems similar to the 250s in riding style: it allows quicker cornering and even under braking you can push harder than on the 990. This Ducati has got so much power and I can't wait to get back on the track at Jerez for the last tests of the year!"[/font]

[font="verdana, arial"] [/font]

BTW... Not much progress in the lap times in 4 years...! Rossi had the same exact time then as this year on the Ducati...! And Vermeulen on that old Suzuki would have looked good in 2010 too...
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J4rn0 said:
BTW... Not much progress in the lap times in 4 years...! Rossi had the same exact time then as this year on the Ducati...! And Vermeulen on that old Suzuki would have looked good in 2010 too...
unsure.gif
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Tyres and complete lack of will from suzuki. I think the suzuki times at PI 2010 were barely better than the suzuki superbike times.
 
Over this last season I've been struggling to accept that perhaps the only truly original design on the grid just isn't as good as the others precisely because of the elements which make it different. If this were evolution, the bike would have to evolve or become extinct. What will it evolve into? Some fear the Red Yamaha, or pray for another evolutionary direction which will allow it to not have its food stolen by the Hondosaurus Rex. Others believe the new improved Velosirossi will overcome the species' genetic quirks by simply making them work better, perhaps with the support of one of the ecosystem's most respected dinosaurs, the Burgessaurus.



What I am getting at is that this is not a bike to be tweaked, tuned or fixed; it's a bike to be modified, changed or replaced.



And that's what's going to happen. The consequence of all of this, for better or for worse, is that the 2011 bike will not be the same bike Stoner (and Rossi) rode as recently as Valencia. Implication number one for the fans is that we won't really be able to make comparisons as too many variables will have been introduced (like that's going to stop anybody).



As a fan of racing and bikes of all species, what I wish for above all is not equality or homogeniety - it's an elitist activity, after all. But who really wants to watch the Ducati for what it has become, as opposed to what it has been and will be again?
 
corinthian said:
Over this last season I've been struggling to accept that perhaps the only truly original design on the grid just isn't as good as the others precisely because of the elements which make it different. If this were evolution, the bike would have to evolve or become extinct. What will it evolve into? Some fear the Red Yamaha, or pray for another evolutionary direction which will allow it to not have its food stolen by the Hondosaurus Rex. Others believe the new improved Velosirossi will overcome the species' genetic quirks by simply making them work better, perhaps with the support of one of the ecosystem's most respected dinosaurs, the Burgessaurus.



What I am getting at is that this is not a bike to be tweaked, tuned or fixed; it's a bike to be modified, changed or replaced.



And that's what's going to happen. The consequence of all of this, for better or for worse, is that the 2011 bike will not be the same bike Stoner (and Rossi) rode as recently as Valencia. Implication number one for the fans is that we won't really be able to make comparisons as too many variables will have been introduced (like that's going to stop anybody).



As a fan of racing and bikes of all species, what I wish for above all is not equality or homogeniety - it's an elitist activity, after all. But who really wants to watch the Ducati for what it has become, as opposed to what it has been and will be again?
Click to expand...



Nice post. I don't think there's much chance we're going to see a red Yamaha replica with standard Deltabox frame.

What we're all hoping for is a tasteful cross-pollination Japanese and Italian genes that will allow Rossi and eventually

all the other Ducati riders to ride the bike - instead of putting all their energy into riding around it's flaws.

Ducati will never be the dominant species in this series - in the way it did with WSBK. Honda will always

have more money and make it's regularly scheduled comeback every few years.
 
corinthian said:
Over this last season I've been struggling to accept that perhaps the only truly original design on the grid just isn't as good as the others precisely because of the elements which make it different. If this were evolution, the bike would have to evolve or become extinct. What will it evolve into? Some fear the Red Yamaha, or pray for another evolutionary direction which will allow it to not have its food stolen by the Hondosaurus Rex. Others believe the new improved Velosirossi will overcome the species' genetic quirks by simply making them work better, perhaps with the support of one of the ecosystem's most respected dinosaurs, the Burgessaurus.



What I am getting at is that this is not a bike to be tweaked, tuned or fixed; it's a bike to be modified, changed or replaced.



And that's what's going to happen. The consequence of all of this, for better or for worse, is that the 2011 bike will not be the same bike Stoner (and Rossi) rode as recently as Valencia. Implication number one for the fans is that we won't really be able to make comparisons as too many variables will have been introduced (like that's going to stop anybody).



As a fan of racing and bikes of all species, what I wish for above all is not equality or homogeniety - it's an elitist activity, after all. But who really wants to watch the Ducati for what it has become, as opposed to what it has been and will be again?
Click to expand...



I think the Ducati is a bike that can be tuned and fixed. It has worked exceedingly well for Stoner, that means the bike's potential is real; Stoner found his setup on the second day he rode the Desmosedici in 2007, and since then for him it was basically ok (minus this year's front end problems). No other rider could find as good a setup as Stoner on the Ducati, which tells us the bike is difficult, but still not impossible.



It could happen that the whole original design will have eventually to be binned, and Stoner remain something like the lonely hero who could win on it in spite of its jerkiness; but as much as I admire Stoner, I do not think he has supernatural powers. There must be other ways to harness the potential of the Ducati and Rossi is likely to find his own. Whether his solution will be something that will allow everybody to ride the Ducati like a Yamaha or a Honda, I'm not so sure. The Ducati is and will remain different. We'll see. Maybe already in February
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Keshav said:
I don't think there's much chance we're going to see a red Yamaha replica with standard Deltabox frame.
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I agree, but my line of thinking is that Ducati adopted their current frameless design because of its behavioural characteristics, not just an aesthetic, and in practice these characteristics have come at a higher cost than expected. So the question is not whether they will abandon it in favour of the Deltabox design (it's way too late in the day for that, even if they wanted to) but whether they will try to modify the Ducati's behavioural characteristics to more closely mimic a Deltabox bike's and in so doing defeat one of the purposes of switching to the frameless design in the first place.



With this article in mind, it's clear that the firm is heavily committed to the frameless design, and its benefits as detailed in the article seem clear. I actually love the design, and if its current iteration is flawed that doesn't necessarily mean that the design concept itself is. We have to assume that with the new rider and crew, increased investment and the added motivation we're going to see just how far the frameless Ducati can be improved.



I don't really follow Formula 1 but I have read up a bit on Adrian Newey and often find myself comparing him to Filippo Preziosi. Their personas are similar, as are some of their ideas and their willingness to go down a different path from everybody else. The big difference is their results. The current Red Bull F1 car is a masterpiece and wins races with either driver, and I understand that to have been the case with his previous championship winning cars. The current handling issues of the Ducati will leave Preziosi with a slightly tainted reputation (much like it has for Stoner) unless he is able to improve it.



In the mean time, we'll just have to keep waiting for people like Alex Briggs to drop clues, and I expect Kropotkin will get a scoop some time next month as well (rubs hands in anticipation).
 
corinthian said:
I agree, but my line of thinking is that Ducati adopted their current frameless design because of its behavioural characteristics, not just an aesthetic, and in practice these characteristics have come at a higher cost than expected. So the question is not whether they will abandon it in favour of the Deltabox design (it's way too late in the day for that, even if they wanted to) but whether they will try to modify the Ducati's behavioural characteristics to more closely mimic a Deltabox bike's and in so doing defeat one of the purposes of switching to the frameless design in the first place.



With this article in mind, it's clear that the firm is heavily committed to the frameless design, and its benefits as detailed in the article seem clear. I actually love the design, and if its current iteration is flawed that doesn't necessarily mean that the design concept itself is. We have to assume that with the new rider and crew, increased investment and the added motivation we're going to see just how far the frameless Ducati can be improved.



I don't really follow Formula 1 but I have read up a bit on Adrian Newey and often find myself comparing him to Filippo Preziosi. Their personas are similar, as are some of their ideas and their willingness to go down a different path from everybody else. The big difference is their results. The current Red Bull F1 car is a masterpiece and wins races with either driver, and I understand that to have been the case with his previous championship winning cars. The current handling issues of the Ducati will leave Preziosi with a slightly tainted reputation (much like it has for Stoner) unless he is able to improve it.



In the mean time, we'll just have to keep waiting for people like Alex Briggs to drop clues, and I expect Kropotkin will get a scoop some time next month as well (rubs hands in anticipation).
Click to expand...



Very nice post.

Meanwhile you can have a look at this video http://www.video.mediaset.it/video/motogp/motogp/199046/vale-letterina-a-babbo-ducati.html#tc-s1-c1-o1-p1

It is in Italian but here is the story: it shows an Italian journalist (Guido Meda) collecting Valentino Rossi's Christmas letter to Santa and delivering it to Filippo Preziosi in Borgo Panigale, who shows the gifts prepared for Valentino: new sub-frame and steering head, new forks and other parts to mount them at different positions in the steering plate, a swingarm...
<
 
corinthian said:
"Sorry, the content is unavailable for your country". Care to share? That vid sounds like the most interesting post-season material so far...
Click to expand...



There you go, it was already up on youtube http://www.youtube.c...h?v=btCxGdt2XLI
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A few hints on what Preziosi says:

-the front sub-frame was made softer by varying the combination of CF layers (two versions of it)

-the steering column was also made in two versions, aluminum and steel, which gives different flexibility and feedback;

-he shows the eccentric mounts for the forks that can be adjusted, to change weight distribution, angle etc.

-he shows also the two forks, the 48mm and the 42mm, saying they are preparing a cross between the two for Sepang, to have the 42mm (more flexible) with the hydraulics of the 48mm inside (which are better).



Ah, the journalist, when reading to them Rossi's letter to Santa says among other things: "...the engine is more than enough, I can manage even with a little less..." at which Guareschi says: "no no, we leave that as it is, better stay on the safe side..."
laugh.gif
 
J4rn0 said:
There you go, it was already up on youtube http://www.youtube.c...h?v=btCxGdt2XLI
<




A few hints on what Preziosi says:

-the front sub-frame was made softer by varying the combination of CF layers (two versions of it)

-the steering column was also made in two versions, aluminum and steel, which gives different flexibility and feedback;

-he shows the eccentric mounts for the forks that can be adjusted, to change weight distribution, angle etc.

-he shows also the two forks, the 48mm and the 42mm, saying they are preparing a cross between the two for Sepang, to have the 42mm (more flexible) with the hydraulics of the 48mm inside (which are better).



Ah, the journalist, when reading to them Rossi's letter to Santa says among other things: "...the engine is more than enough, I can manage even with a little less..." at which Guareschi says: "no no, we leave that as it is, better stay on the safe side..."
laugh.gif
Click to expand...

Sounds like rather a large degree of development. I have always thought they could get at least the new front forks, similar to those which were apparently a significant contributor to the 2010 yamaha, to work. JB said on australian tv earlier this season as has been discussed that it took yamaha much work to perfect them.
 
michaelm said:
Sounds like rather a large degree of development. I have always thought they could get at least the new front forks, similar to those which were apparently a significant contributor to the 2010 yamaha, to work. JB said on australian tv earlier this season as has been discussed that it took yamaha much work to perfect them.
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Actually to me it does not seem like a huge development. It's more really like adapting the bike to Rossi without changing anything of the basic design. The front end changes -- if they are what Preziosi says -- are all addressing feeling issues: Rossi wants more feeling, so they change some rigidity here ad there so he can feel better what the front end is doing when he enters a corner on the brakes.



Guareschi at Jerez hinted to a completely different setup that they had never tried before, lifting the rear more, putting more weight on the front, again it sounds like finding ways to adapt Rossi's personal setup to the Ducati. It's maybe something new for Ducati, but not for Rossi. My take is that if these are all the changes, and if they are enough for Rossi to then push at the limit, (two if's) it will mean the shoulder and general tiredness affected his performance at Valencia more than I previously thought.



And, of course, that any real developmental choices are postponed to when Valentino will be able to push the bike at the limit.
 
Honestly - this is about what I expected. I never thought they were going to engineer a whole

new frame or engine at this late stage. Lets hope this isn't going to be "Lipstick on a pig."
 
J4rn0 said:
Actually to me it does not seem like a huge development. It's more really like adapting the bike to Rossi without changing anything of the basic design. The front end changes -- if they are what Preziosi says -- are all addressing feeling issues: Rossi wants more feeling, so they change some rigidity here ad there so he can feel better what the front end is doing when he enters a corner on the brakes.



Guareschi at Jerez hinted to a completely different setup that they had never tried before, lifting the rear more, putting more weight on the front, again it sounds like finding ways to adapt Rossi's personal setup to the Ducati. It's maybe something new for Ducati, but not for Rossi. My take is that if these are all the changes, and if they are enough for Rossi to then push at the limit, (two if's) it will mean the shoulder and general tiredness affected his performance at Valencia more than I previously thought.



And, of course, that any real developmental choices are postponed to when Valentino will be able to push the bike at the limit.
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I think we are talking at cross-purposes; I agree this is not a re-design, but rather a development of the existing design, and sounds like more changes than they would usually make in a year with stoner. If these changes work, particularly if he is near the front as soon as the sepang test it will be testimony to rossi's /jb's skills, if they work. As I said I expect them to get at least the new front forks to work. Whether they have immediately found the way to tweak a carbon fibre chassis will be interesting to see.
 
michaelm said:
I think we are talking at cross-purposes; I agree this is not a re-design, but rather a development of the existing design, and sounds like more changes than they would usually make in a year with stoner. If these changes work, particularly if he is near the front as soon as the sepang test it will be testimony to rossi's /jb's skills, if they work. As I said I expect them to get at least the new front forks to work. Whether they have immediately found the way to tweak a carbon fibre chassis will be interesting to see.
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Agree.



I do not think Rossi is going to top the sheets at Sepang though -- his fitness will not be 100% yet -- but he should be able to stay much closer to the top, on a bike that has now been adapted as much as possible to his preferences, and on a track he loves. All the changes being made are aimed at enabling Rossi to feel at ease and push harder. After that, and only after that, they'll begin to have an idea of future directions.



Interestingly, Preziosi has recently declared (in an interview with MotoSprint) that Ducati so far has been successful mainly thanks to its engine and electronics, which Stoner in particular was able to exploit fully; but now they'll have to work more on the chassis. He stressed how the chassis is the less scientific part of designing a race bike because there are no sensors that can give you numbers representing things like front end "feel", so rider feedback is everything in that area.
 
J4rn0 said:
Interestingly, Preziosi has recently declared (in an interview with MotoSprint) that Ducati so far has been successful mainly thanks to its engine and electronics, which Stoner in particular was able to exploit fully; but now they'll have to work more on the chassis. He stressed how the chassis is the less scientific part of designing a race bike because there are no sensors that can give you numbers representing things like front end "feel", so rider feedback is everything in that area.
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I have to ask, is this and admission that in the past they have not perhaps paid as much credence to the rider feedack?











Gaz
 
Ok, you guys are hellbent on this "developing a bike" guff, so I will just add, what will be the measure of how successful Rossi is as a development rider? I would suggest that from what the whole fairytale of a "user friendly" bike suggests is that we should see the other Ducati riders up near Rossi .......... no?
 

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