Help Support MotoGP Forum:
The measure of successful development will be if rossi can ride the bike at a race -winning pace without crashing frequently.
What other riders do on the bike is irrelevant imo as with casey stoner, but there is a reasonable amount of historical evidence that bikes which suit valentino also suit other riders.
- Joined
- Jun 26, 2007
- Messages
- 9,515
- Location
- Norah Head
Historically Rossi has never gotten on a bike as ........... "difficult" ....... as the Duc. though ......... ever.
- Joined
- Oct 22, 2007
- Messages
- 3,802
- Location
- Tuscany, Italy
Yamaha in 2003 was a bike on which all riders had experienced only difficulties. At least on the Duck one rider has won a lot .
Maybe Stoner would have won races even on the 2003 Yam, without changing it much? It's something nobody can rule out. He's that type of raw talent--if the bike can go fast, he'll exploit it as it is.
But Yamaha would not have become the 'best bike', probably.
Not sure about your country (and apologies for that) but in Oz the general consensus is that of the more people that indicate a problem (or possible problem), the more likely it is that a problem truly exists.
So for me I suspect that it is more an admission of not listening in the past and realising now that they must take notice of what is said and take constructive action to work on the highlighted issue.
It has been said in the past by many, and is something I totally agree with but the current investment in TeamVR (Be that all contributing parties) is far to large in both dollars and extraneous factors for it not to be given the utmost treatment. No doubt for me VR will have a positive impact on all things at Ducati that others have pointed out, the question is will that be fast enough in terms to produce immediate results (ala Yamaha) or will it be a evolutionary process in terms of results.
The other point that the statement may well indicate is the change in mindset at Ducati from one of 'engineers rule' (as VR once listed for not going there) to one where the rider now has greater say.
Gaz
- Joined
- Oct 22, 2007
- Messages
- 3,802
- Location
- Tuscany, Italy
Fair enough. Although I doubt that all Ducati riders have been consistent in reporting the same problems. The same moment Casey was crashing this year and complaining about the front end, Nicky was doing some of his best races...
Preziosi and Burgess do not even seem convinced yet that a real front end problem exists. In a recent interview to MotoSprint Burgess said that he believes Stoner crashes may have been due more to his impulsiveness than to any real problem (he says he always crashed in the first few laps trying to too fast in the early stages) and about Rossi he says his feedback from Valencia was too conditioned by the pain in his shoulder and general lack of strength.
True point, but the analysis is in the times and whilst CS was crashing NH's lap times were still around .4 or so a lap (or greater) slower on average.
But true, I doubt that the 4 riders were reporting the 'same' issue as each would have used different language or emphasis as none could (obviously it would seem) peg the specific problem and thus arrange or intimate rectification
Interesting from JB as a look at the crashes of all Ducati riders last year would indicate a possible (or should that be probable) front end issue as the majority of crashes across all rides was a front end lose. Given that this occurred at different times of the race, different tracks and conditions, different riders etc one could assume that there was an inherent problem somewhere, whether it be bike, tyre or riders, there would seem to have been an issue.
For me, I have read a number of recent interviews with JB and each time there is a question about CS he does seem to 'dig the boot in', which is interesting and disappointing in a way as he was a rider JB once was said to want to work with, I wonder what happened there?
But as for CS crashing in the early stages, whilst true it does not necessarily indicate that there was no flaw or issue with the bike, just that he possibly found it sooner given his 'mentality' and approach, thus it looked worse when other found it later in the race.
Either way, there is no doubt that Marlboro and Ducati will move everything and leave no stone unturned or unchanged in order to resolve each and every issue identified by VR with the bike (remembering that he may identify issues CS did not, or not identify as issues items which CS had).
For me however it is an interesting aside that only now do Ducati seem to be listening (viewed from a public standpoint) which does back up the assertion by VR all those years ago that they were Honda re-incarnated and an engineers first firm (paraphrased). No doubt that during negotiations etc VR and his team would have obtained a large amount of concessions and levels of 'control' with regards to development directions etc, so we will see in future how that pans out (and I suspect it will be business as usual for teamVR).
Gaz
- Joined
- Jun 26, 2007
- Messages
- 9,515
- Location
- Norah Head
As VR has showed, the Boppers were sucked into the fairytale thought that the Ducati was a great bike.
It falsely included Stoner in the averages of how the Ducati performs and ignores what effect it has when other "pretty good" riders get on it. Again take away Stoner and how does the Ducati look? ...... its no Yamaha that Rossi got onto when he left.
I don't think Rossi ignored this too, I think he is fully aware that this is the situation, and that he and JB have the hardest ask of there careers here. The Rossi too Ducati move was motivated by a want to be challenged, and ....... I think Rossi actually is looking at retirement, but is using his "persona"/marketting pull to the benefit of GP.
The sad thing is, if it does go "balls up" with Ducati, many will blame Ducati, so Rossi will be their worst nightmare, or some will blame Rossi .......... when in fact its nobodies fault ..... its just that Rossi is no Stoner ........ thats whats really wrong wit the Duc.
It falsely included Stoner in the averages of how the Ducati performs and ignores what effect it has when other "pretty good" riders get on it. Again take away Stoner and how does the Ducati look? ...... its no Yamaha that Rossi got onto when he left.
I don't think Rossi ignored this too, I think he is fully aware that this is the situation, and that he and JB have the hardest ask of there careers here. The Rossi too Ducati move was motivated by a want to be challenged, and ....... I think Rossi actually is looking at retirement, but is using his "persona"/marketting pull to the benefit of GP.
The sad thing is, if it does go "balls up" with Ducati, many will blame Ducati, so Rossi will be their worst nightmare, or some will blame Rossi .......... when in fact its nobodies fault ..... its just that Rossi is no Stoner ........ thats whats really wrong wit the Duc.
Yes,i guess all of us here understands that if Rossi doesn't win a championship on the Ducati,Ducati is going to be blamed.A part of why Ducati is going to be blamed (100%or less)is because the approach to the media by Ducati that Rossi and Burgess+team is put there to turn the bike around.Make it better.Tons of reports saying these are Rossi's new parts,or Rossi is going to get what he asks for.And as he turned the Yamaha around and steared Honda in a good direction,Ducati more or less has to become easier to get consistent from more than one rider.
But,he has only tried it at one time when injured and obviously not taking any risks when riding it.First assesment or what ever,who knows.The data has probarbly come from Capirossi,Hayden and Rossi as they tried different 2011-parts as i understand.But the main use from Rossi that first test perhaps was mostly input of feel from the bike,and the experience of solving different problems with Burgess+team.
Don't get me wrong.I loooved Stoner on the Ducati the way he treated it,and i think Stoner is the best rider in the world i know of to ride on the limit.Maybe simply because he is 1 % or whatever over the limit all the time.He is also very good at riding around problems evidently to come to that limit.
Maybe the 2011 Honda has less things in the way of the rider,which is going to perhaps make Stoner find his set up with more ease,making him more consistent through the year and making him win the championship ahead of Lorenzo even.
I think he will.
But,the reason for Stoner winning the championship 2011 in that case would also come from a consistent bike with not so much in the way of the rider,or a bike easy to ride in other words.
And,how did that bike become easy to ride?Because a nitpicking dwarf has asked for updates and Honda has had the resourses and experience from different riders to give him that.
This is what Ducati is finally doing now as i understand it.
Maybe there isn't that much changes needed more than the front-frame in a combination with swingarm or whatever it is.
The turning problem maybe is just a setup thing.
No doubt Yamaha and Honda has a headstart next year,but we'll see a few races into the season.Maybe Rossi could win a few races atleast.2012 on the other hand...
When is Rossi alowed to talk,by the way,does anyone know?
No doubt, as one would have to be a complete and utter dropkick not to listen to the set-up requirements of VR and thus make the necessary development changes.
But, and I suspect there will not be any clear answer here available for some time, the question that does need to be answered is if Ducati listened to the other riders, would the task of team VR as (apparently) large?
Goatboy
The Worlds Forgotten Boy
- Joined
- Sep 6, 2006
- Messages
- 2,554
- Location
- Leading
Midnight on Friday, however I suspect the actual talking will be saved for the Ducati launch on 10th January.
- Joined
- Feb 22, 2008
- Messages
- 2,061
- Location
- home
I hope for Ducati's sake they will develope a decent bike for within the next two years. Otherwise, we can say with hindsight that hiring Rossi has eventually resulted in a lot of negative PR for all the three manufacturers he was signed to in the premier class. First the trouble with Honda, then the 'me or him soap' at Yamaha and now the risk of making Ducati look like a second rate manufacturer in MotoGP.
Of course, that doesn't take away from the positive impact he probably had on Yamaha brand perception when his relationship with them was still dandy. And of course, if Ducati do manage to get Rossi back to the front in 2011 or 2012, the gamble will pay off big time.
- Joined
- Feb 22, 2008
- Messages
- 2,061
- Location
- home
Yes,i guess all of us here understands that if Rossi doesn't win a championship on the Ducati,Ducati is going to be blamed.A part of why Ducati is going to be blamed (100%or less)is because the approach to the media by Ducati that Rossi and Burgess+team is put there to turn the bike around.Make it better.Tons of reports saying these are Rossi's new parts,or Rossi is going to get what he asks for.And as he turned the Yamaha around and steared Honda in a good direction,Ducati more or less has to become easier to get consistent from more than one rider.
But,he has only tried it at one time when injured and obviously not taking any risks when riding it.First assesment or what ever,who knows.The data has probarbly come from Capirossi,Hayden and Rossi as they tried different 2011-parts as i understand.But the main use from Rossi that first test perhaps was mostly input of feel from the bike,and the experience of solving different problems with Burgess+team.
Don't get me wrong.I loooved Stoner on the Ducati the way he treated it,and i think Stoner is the best rider in the world i know of to ride on the limit.Maybe simply because he is 1 % or whatever over the limit all the time.He is also very good at riding around problems evidently to come to that limit.
Maybe the 2011 Honda has less things in the way of the rider,which is going to perhaps make Stoner find his set up with more ease,making him more consistent through the year and making him win the championship ahead of Lorenzo even.
I think he will.
But,the reason for Stoner winning the championship 2011 in that case would also come from a consistent bike with not so much in the way of the rider,or a bike easy to ride in other words.
And,how did that bike become easy to ride?Because a nitpicking dwarf has asked for updates and Honda has had the resourses and experience from different riders to give him that.
This is what Ducati is finally doing now as i understand it.
Maybe there isn't that much changes needed more than the front-frame in a combination with swingarm or whatever it is.
The turning problem maybe is just a setup thing.
No doubt Yamaha and Honda has a headstart next year,but we'll see a few races into the season.Maybe Rossi could win a few races atleast.2012 on the other hand...
When is Rossi alowed to talk,by the way,does anyone know?
I remember a time not to long ago, when the general consensus was that Rossi was the very best when it came to riding around problems. Now, I think this was not entirely untrue, although I would argue that the quality of material available to him also helped greatly (let's not get into that discussion, hehe).
But times sure have changed, have they not? I believe many people would agree with you that Stoner is great at riding around problems. I certainly do, but I might be a bit biased. But what's up with Rossi meanwhile? Is he still as good at riding around problems but is the competition merely stronger?
To me, recently it seemed more and more like Rossi was in need of a perfectly set up bike to win. Is this just my gut feeling?
If this is so, it does not bode well for Ducati, as it means their bike will have to become very user friendly. Very, very user friendly.
The point I'm trying to make here is that maybe it will not be enough to make a competive bike, there may also be a need to make an easy bike.
- Joined
- Oct 22, 2007
- Messages
- 3,802
- Location
- Tuscany, Italy
Your "evidence" is pretty thin so far -- two days of tests... VR and Ducati may "show" something completely different at Sepang. Maybe better wait at least another couple of tests before constructing a whole new theory of the universe
I understand this scenario is what you would like to see, but just be a little more patient
Some fodder for the long winter is needed!
So.. What's wrong with the Desmosedici?
While after the Valencia tests Preziosi is busy redesigning the front end of the bike, we may throw our own guesses at where the root of the problem lies.
Some have hinted at some basic flaw in the radical design of the bike's chassis, that makes it different from all the Jap variations of the venerable deltabox.
Some think it's actually the engine architecture that limits the choices for chassis.
Here are a couple of pictures of the 'naked' Desmosedici: first the old 990 version with trellis frame, then the new 800 with carbon fiber chassis.
Any ideas?
Forget the mechanical engineering explanations and theories …Just Put Stoner Back On The Ducati and do what he says for the Ducati….nothing more and nothing less…he’s the GOD of Ducati
From what I've read Burgess and Rossi know exactly what the issue is with the Duc and have been telling them this for the past 18 months but Ducati have been unable to fix it, so there is absolutely no point in Rossi staying because the situation is not going to get any better.
