What's Wrong with the Ducati?

AnnoyingTwit · Dec 1, 2012

HEISMAN said:
If it will completely match them I don't know, but what I think will happen is we'll see a faster turnaround in development. Whereas before they riders would get a variation or two of a chassis throughout the who season, I think Suter will be able to design a variety of frames for the riders to test and bring back frame designs in an increased manner than in previous years.

This can only help. IMHO

I'm sure it will help Ducati progress faster. But if they're continuing with the twin spar alu. frame, then they're taking on Honda and Yamaha on their own home territory as it were. Getting closer is one thing, beating them another.

I'm not saying it's impossible. E.g. on this theory KTM shouldn't be able to build a moto3 engine better than Honda's. But they did, and the reason seems to be that there are some really clever people working for KTM. Ducati itself has punched above its weight in terms of engines compared to the Japanese teams. But Suter's previous and current motogp experience doesn't convince me that they have frame designing genius. They're good, particularly in the lower classes. But I think it will take genius to match and beat the current winning teams. Maybe a bigger budget for Suter will make the difference, but I'm not sure.

Andy Roo · Dec 1, 2012

Apropos KTM, have you seen next years super-duke? I'm not linking anything because I am just plain lazy but it is a .... in your pants machine.

KTM have built some brilliant little bikes particularly the moto3 125 machines and seem to be a dark horse manufacturer at present coming from behind.

AnnoyingTwit · Dec 1, 2012

Andy Roo said:
Apropos KTM, have you seen next years super-duke? I'm not linking anything because I am just plain lazy but it is a .... in your pants machine.

KTM have built some brilliant little bikes particularly the moto3 125 machines and seem to be a dark horse manufacturer at present coming from behind.

I very much like the looks and idea of the KTM Duke 350. But I was disappointed when I found how little power it has. A bit of a sheep in wolf's clothing.

But I'm impressed by their racing history (though I don't follow off-road/motocross etc so am missing most of their racing story) and read with great interest the story of their moto3 development. Including the suspiciously convenient for their opponent reduction in the maximum rev limit for moto3 :-(

Andy Roo · Dec 1, 2012

AnnoyingTwit said:
I very much like the looks and idea of the KTM Duke 350. But I was disappointed when I found how little power it has. A bit of a sheep in wolf's clothing.

But I'm impressed by their racing history (though I don't follow off-road/motocross etc so am missing most of their racing story) and read with great interest the story of their moto3 development. Including the suspiciously convenient for their opponent reduction in the maximum rev limit for moto3 :-(

I raced for a 2nd tier KTM team in Enduro (1994 to 1996) I still have the Enduro Performance Racing KTM stickers somewhere here. I think my actual job was to be able to rip my fairings off and hand my bike, if going, to the 1st tier riders if broken down.

But I was in it 2 win it, just ask me. being a redundant and expendable 2nd rate rider is part of my "legend"

The 350 would be good around here, all mountains and twisties. One of my personal regrets (that I shall correct) is I've never put a motard over a lot of my favourite roads. KTM build great off road bikes, I've bashed them and tortured them somersaulted and drowned them and they just keep going. They deserve a good road bike for the way they build.

Also, you changed your alter ego from me to Pete with the inflatable butt dildo - that was very funny

. Pete will bite but everyone here is an annoying .....

BJ.C · Dec 1, 2012

AnnoyingTwit said:
I'm sure his database is extensive compared to Kalex, FTR, etc. And he's been around a long time. But I still wonder if he/his organisation has the talent in depth to compete directly against Honda and Yamaha. Just being in motogp isn't enough to show that they have that much talent. Is there any real evidence that they do?

I'm not against Suter in any way, but I wonder if the partnership will provide the necessary skill for Ducati to win championships against Honda and Yamaha. Which given budgets would probably mean out-thinking them.

What makes you think Honda and Yamaha have superior talent? It might just be two guys. You don't know. What you do know is that Suter is a long-time specialist GP chassis builder that has designed frames for the likes of Yamaha and Kawasaki, as well as a ton of GP bikes, among other things.

I don't know, either, but your question is pointless. He is, therefore he is.

BJ.C · Dec 1, 2012

AnnoyingTwit said:
But I was disappointed when I found how little power it has

I think 45ps and 130kg is bloody brilliant. Going off-stock will unleash another 15hp.

60hp on such a lean beast would make it king of the twisties.

The Duke 690 'only' has 67hp/159kg and it is a whole lotta fun. The Aprilia RS250 had 64hp at 140kg and is possibly the most fun to be had with your clothes on.

Perhaps a diet of Japanese sportsbike figures has blinded you to real-world performance/weight figures?

AnnoyingTwit · Dec 1, 2012

BJ.C said:
What makes you think Honda and Yamaha have superior talent? It might just be two guys. You don't know. What you do know is that Suter is a long-time specialist GP chassis builder that has designed frames for the likes of Yamaha and Kawasaki, as well as a ton of GP bikes, among other things.

I don't know, either, but your question is pointless. He is, therefore he is.

In general, but not always, the teams that consistently win championships have superior design talent. Often because they can afford to pay more and make talented people and/or because talented people like to work for talented teams because then they get the chance to win more often. The way that technical people move between teams is more public in Formula One where you have undoubtably talented people such as Adrian Newey moving between teams and taking success with them. I don't know of examples of this in MotoGP. Livio Suppo moved from Ducati to Honda is a non-design team example of this.

I've never said that Suter doesn't have the talent to compete with Yamaha/Honda. I've wondered whether or not this is the case and asked if there is some evidence that Suter will be able to come up with a chassis good enough to match/beat them. As people have said, he's experienced. But that in itself is not enough.

It's going to take at least two seasons before we find out, I believe. As I believe that it will be a learning year in 2013 before the new structure delivers what it can deliver.

About the Duke 350, what I read online suggested that it only had 25hp. Where did you get your figures suggesting 45ps? I've googled, and there is a Duke 390 which has 45ps. That's more like it.

Dr No · Dec 2, 2012

AnnoyingTwit said:
In general, but not always, the teams that consistently win championships have superior design talent. Often because they can afford to pay more and make talented people and/or because talented people like to work for talented teams because then they get the chance to win more often. The way that technical people move between teams is more public in Formula One where you have undoubtably talented people such as Adrian Newey moving between teams and taking success with them. I don't know of examples of this in MotoGP. Livio Suppo moved from Ducati to Honda is a non-design team example of this.

I've never said that Suter doesn't have the talent to compete with Yamaha/Honda. I've wondered whether or not this is the case and asked if there is some evidence that Suter will be able to come up with a chassis good enough to match/beat them. As people have said, he's experienced. But that in itself is not enough.

It's going to take at least two seasons before we find out, I believe. As I believe that it will be a learning year in 2013 before the new structure delivers what it can deliver.

About the Duke 350, what I read online suggested that it only had 25hp. Where did you get your figures suggesting 45ps? I've googled, and there is a Duke 390 which has 45ps. That's more like it.

Check his IP. Sockpuppet.

michaelm · Dec 2, 2012

AnnoyingTwit said:
In general, but not always, the teams that consistently win championships have superior design talent. Often because they can afford to pay more and make talented people and/or because talented people like to work for talented teams because then they get the chance to win more often. The way that technical people move between teams is more public in Formula One where you have undoubtably talented people such as Adrian Newey moving between teams and taking success with them. I don't know of examples of this in MotoGP. Livio Suppo moved from Ducati to Honda is a non-design team example of this.

I've never said that Suter doesn't have the talent to compete with Yamaha/Honda. I've wondered whether or not this is the case and asked if there is some evidence that Suter will be able to come up with a chassis good enough to match/beat them. As people have said, he's experienced. But that in itself is not enough.

It's going to take at least two seasons before we find out, I believe. As I believe that it will be a learning year in 2013 before the new structure delivers what it can deliver.

About the Duke 350, what I read online suggested that it only had 25hp. Where did you get your figures suggesting 45ps? I've googled, and there is a Duke 390 which has 45ps. That's more like it.

Good post. Certainly in F1 the redbull renaults consistently did rather better than the renault renaults, doubtless partly because of vettel's talents but also significantly due to adrian newey's talents imo.

AnnoyingTwit · Dec 2, 2012

Dr No said:
Check his IP. Sockpuppet.

The occasional paranoia concerning whether or not I'm a real new member of the site or just a sockpuppet alter/ego helps me a lot. In that it helps me understand a bit about the people claiming that Marquez is cheating, that Honda has control of the sport, that Dorma is fixing things, etc.

How about you go over to Ben Goldacre's Bad Science Forums and ask the long established member "Annoying Twit" there if he is the same person as the one here?

In the meantime, I've got to transport this nuclear weapon I've stolen to a tropical island where I'm building a lair in a hollowed out volcano. Holding the world to ransom is hard work, but someone has to do it.

AnnoyingTwit · Dec 2, 2012

michaelm said:
Good post. Certainly in F1 the redbull renaults consistently did rather better than the renault renaults, doubtless partly because of vettel's talents but also signiificantly due to adrian newey's talents imo.

I don't know how things work in MotoGP, but in F1 there are several well-known motivations for technical people to change teams. Money is one. The chance to work for a team that can challenge for the championship is another. There are others such as the offer of a more senior/responsible position. The first two mean that those who can would like to move to the top teams, as they usually have the most money as well as being those who challenge for the championship. That means that the top teams have more ability to pick and choose the technical staff they want, and as a result the most talented people tend to end up at top teams.

In MotoGP things aren't so clear, as there are fewer top teams, and nowdays both of them are Japanese. What is the makeup of the Honda and Yamaha engine and chassis design teams? If these are designed in Japan solely by Japanese resident engineers as I think they are (please correct me if this is wrong), then they are choosing from a smaller pool of potential talent, and that therefore there would be very talented people they wouldn't pick up on. Which is how a smaller Dutch company could produce a better moto3 engine than Honda. I've googled to see if I can find out who the Honda MotoGP chief designer is, and find nothing. Honda F1 (when it existed) and Honda BTCC hire engineers from the international market, but for bikes? I don't know, can someone please tell me. For Yamaha, the only engineers I know of are generally ex-engineers, e.g. Kouichi Tsuji who now has a management role and works at races, and of course Masao Furusawa.

Returning more centrally to the topic, I personally wonder about moving Felipo Preziosi to head of road bike R&D. I've not seen much to say that there's anything wrong with the Ducati engine, apart from claims that the L configuration doesn't work. This has been refuted by Ducati, and if claims that the Honda is a L configuration is true, then that's more evidence that the engine configuration is not a problem in itself. Felipo Preziosi is described in some places as an engine specialist, and I wonder if the team will miss his skills in that area. Maybe, if he agreed to it, he should have been kept in the racing team but concentrated on the engine.

Andy Roo · Dec 2, 2012

AnnoyingTwit said:
The occasional paranoia concerning whether or not I'm a real new member of the site or just a sockpuppet alter/ego helps me a lot. In that it helps me understand a bit about the people claiming that Marquez is cheating, that Honda has control of the sport, that Dorma is fixing things, etc.

How about you go over to Ben Goldacre's Bad Science Forums and ask the long established member "Annoying Twit" there if he is the same person as the one here?

In the meantime, I've got to transport this nuclear weapon I've stolen to a tropical island where I'm building a lair in a hollowed out volcano. Holding the world to ransom is hard work, but someone has to do it.

Dr No hasn't been here long enough to establish his long term credentials yet either. He will be there soon.

The paranoia comes from well defined and personally known and "sane" long term members. Even paranoids have enemies and I have personally learned that you can learn a lot about paranoia just by following people around.

It also comes from a well argued set of observations.

As far as living in a hollowed out volcano with a nuclear weapon, Lex is waaaaay ahead of you. You'd be much better off holding Lex to ransom and threatening to blow up the Ann Rand institute if he doesn't agree to vote democrat just once.

Dr No · Dec 2, 2012

AnnoyingTwit said:
The occasional paranoia concerning whether or not I'm a real new member of the site or just a sockpuppet alter/ego helps me a lot. In that it helps me understand a bit about the people claiming that Marquez is cheating, that Honda has control of the sport, that Dorma is fixing things, etc.

How about you go over to Ben Goldacre's Bad Science Forums and ask the long established member "Annoying Twit" there if he is the same person as the one here?

In the meantime, I've got to transport this nuclear weapon I've stolen to a tropical island where I'm building a lair in a hollowed out volcano. Holding the world to ransom is hard work, but someone has to do it.

Nice work!

But I'm no longer holding the world to ransom. I died an ironic death due to the limitations of my own technological prowess, if you recall.

AnnoyingTwit · Dec 2, 2012

Andy Roo said:
The paranoia comes from well defined and personally known and "sane" long term members. Even paranoids have enemies and I have personally learned that you can learn a lot about paranoia just by following people around.

It also comes from a well argued set of observations.

Well, maybe. I haven't been here long and haven't seen various bits of forum history. But of course I know whether or not I'm a real person or a sockpuppet. And hence I have the opportunity to be amused by the discussion.

Anyhow Andy, I'll let you get back to planning your bank job. Those diamonds could be removed from the safe deposit box at any time, so you'd better get cracking.

michaelm · Dec 2, 2012

AnnoyingTwit said:
I don't know how things work in MotoGP, but in F1 there are several well-known motivations for technical people to change teams. Money is one. The chance to work for a team that can challenge for the championship is another. There are others such as the offer of a more senior/responsible position. The first two mean that those who can would like to move to the top teams, as they usually have the most money as well as being those who challenge for the championship. That means that the top teams have more ability to pick and choose the technical staff they want, and as a result the most talented people tend to end up at top teams.

In MotoGP things aren't so clear, as there are fewer top teams, and nowdays both of them are Japanese. What is the makeup of the Honda and Yamaha engine and chassis design teams? If these are designed in Japan solely by Japanese resident engineers as I think they are (please correct me if this is wrong), then they are choosing from a smaller pool of potential talent, and that therefore there would be very talented people they wouldn't pick up on. Which is how a smaller Dutch company could produce a better moto3 engine than Honda. I've googled to see if I can find out who the Honda MotoGP chief designer is, and find nothing. Honda F1 (when it existed) and Honda BTCC hire engineers from the international market, but for bikes? I don't know, can someone please tell me. For Yamaha, the only engineers I know of are generally ex-engineers, e.g. Kouichi Tsuji who now has a management role and works at races, and of course Masao Furusawa.

Returning more centrally to the topic, I personally wonder about moving Felipo Preziosi to head of road bike R&D. I've not seen much to say that there's anything wrong with the Ducati engine, apart from claims that the L configuration doesn't work. This has been refuted by Ducati, and if claims that the Honda is a L configuration is true, then that's more evidence that the engine configuration is not a problem in itself. Felipo Preziosi is described in some places as an engine specialist, and I wonder if the team will miss his skills in that area. Maybe, if he agreed to it, he should have been kept in the racing team but concentrated on the engine.

I was actually relating F1 to moto2 rather than motogp, as I had thought were you, given the restrictions on F1 engines now.

Sure, I now agree that the engine, or its configuration anyway, is probably not ducati's real problem.

Andy Roo · Dec 2, 2012

Oh God, death by pop culture spy movie references.

I like it, the diamonds will be fine and this is 2012 - if I don't have my signed overtime authority in front of me the only cracking ill be doing is a twist top.

BJ.C · Dec 2, 2012

AnnoyingTwit said:
I've never said that Suter doesn't have the talent to compete with Yamaha/Honda.

And yet you posted this: "[font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Does Suter have an equal amount of talent? I doubt it."[/font]

Looks very much like you saying they don't.

About the Duke 350, what I read online suggested that it only had 25hp. Where did you get your figures suggesting 45ps? I've googled, and there is a Duke 390 which has 45ps. That's more like it.

Doh! Yes, the bike on their website is a 390. Looks like the 350 is meant for budget markets in Asia, etc.

Well they can .... right off with their 350 then.

AnnoyingTwit · Dec 2, 2012

BJ.C said:
And yet you posted this: "[font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Does Suter have an equal amount of talent? I doubt it."[/font]

Looks very much like you saying they don't.

I doubt it, but I don't know it. There is a big difference. More information would help me refine my degree of uncertainty. I've read that Suter's previous forays into MotoGP haven't been resounding successes, though these disappointments may not be Suter's fault, e.g. budget limits or the engine/teams could have been the limiting factor. I can't really tell from the results of the Forward Racing Suter BMW CRT whether or not the frame is excellent, good, or so-so.

These comments from Colin Edwards are not exactly encouraging http://www.sportride...ewall.html but once again, this could just be a team and frame builder in a learning curve, and this experience added to whatever additional knowledge (and budget) they receive from Audi/Ducati may help Suter build a much better frame for Ducati next year and in subsequent years. Forward are paying Suter 1.2 million euros for chassis and engine support. That is a small amount of money, and presumably the Ducati deal will be worth a lot more and allow Suter to do more.

I would be very happy to be proved wrong as I have a natural tendency to support the underdog, and love to see small teams and organisations humbling bigger ones.

BJ.C · Dec 3, 2012

Must be a cultural thing. 'I doubt it' in my part of the world means 'not'

Dr No · Dec 3, 2012

Andy Roo

3384961354446107

Oh God, death by pop culture spy movie references.

I like it, the diamonds will be fine and this is 2012 - if I don't have my signed overtime authority in front of me the only cracking ill be doing is a twist top.

Look, I might have been able to fool the locals into thinking a tank with a flamethrower was a ....... 'dragon', but this crowd's a bit more savvy...

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