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What does Marquez have to do to be GOAT.

The person making a claim bears the onus of producing evidence in support.

Here's the head of Michelin showing that everything you've said is wrong:

MotoGP France: Michelin: Riders voted against having both tyres | News
RCV600RR, there's a great thread here somewhere that answers all your questions and frankly rebuts much of your skepticism.

Just from the article you link, notice the caveat: "for one or two races". How is the significance of that condition lost?

Since you've been interacting more here, I've come to realize you're a decent person, a fan of the sport, and willing to keep an open mind about some stuff. I submit to you that you look beyond the official line. You can point to a "vote" by the riders on the #70, but please realize the fact they were given the ultimatum on a previously REJECTED tire means you should look at this supposed mechanism of democracy with suspicion. That tire was rejected 22-1. It then reappeared for another "vote".

There is a pre-event presser where Rossi admits Michelin informed him during a call that he was the only one with the opposing tire preference. Then this previously rejected tire was attempted to be reintroduced at Argentina.

If you live in a glass house don't throw rocks.
 
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RCV600RR, there's a great thread here somewhere that answers all your questions and frankly rebuts much of your skepticism. .......

....he was the only one with the opposing tire preference. Then this previously rejected tire was attempted to be reintroduced at Argentina.

If you live in a glass house don't throw rocks.
There is this one: Michelin 070 chosen
And this one is good: Argentina Race
There is one more, I believe.
I think there is enough evidence to make the 070 tire choice rather suspect. The quotes from the safety meeting with the riders is particularly telling.
 
RCV600RR, there's a great thread here somewhere that answers all your questions and frankly rebuts much of your skepticism.

Just from the article you link, notice the caveat: "for one or two races". How is the significance of that condition lost?

Since you've been interacting more here, I've come to realize you're a decent person, a fan of the sport, and willing to keep an open mind about some stuff. I submit to you that you look beyond the official line. You can point to a "vote" by the riders on the #70, but please realize the fact they were given the ultimatum on a previously REJECTED tire means you should look at this supposed mechanism of democracy with suspicion. That tire was rejected 22-1. It then reappeared for another "vote".

There is a pre-event presser where Rossi admits Michelin informed him during a call that he was the only one with the opposing tire preference. Then this previously rejected tire was attempted to be reintroduced at Argentina.

If you live in a glass house don't throw rocks.
Thanks for the post. I missed that distinction between the "for one or two races".

It looks like there was a two-stage vote.

First, there was a vote as to which tyre to use. The harder (please pardon my simplistic reference) was chosen.

Then, there was a second vote as to whether the softer tyre should be kept for another race or two. That was also rejected (for the reasons you mention above).

https://www.asphaltandrubber.com/motogp/friday-french-gp-motogp-summary-2017/

https://motomatters.com/analysis/2017/05/09/2017_jerez_motogp_test_round_up_the_tire.html
 
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Andrea Dovizioso: GOAT of last lap duels against Marc Marquez.

If you live in a glass house don't throw rocks.
 
Andrea Dovizioso: GOAT of last lap duels against Marc Marquez.

If you live in a glass house don't throw rocks.

Even Wayne Rainey had to learn how to beat Eddie Lawson.

Don't be that simplistic Jum. Marc is a triple world champion at 23 and still learning. That in itself should be terrifying to any long-time observer of the sport, such as yourself. You're lowering yourself to a Hack Oxley clickbait style post there.
 
I think Dovi has been incredible in those past two duels. Both times he has been able to put pressure on Marquez from behind and then taken advantage of the mistake Marquez has made. That last pass was other worldly though.
 
I think Dovi has been incredible in those past two duels. Both times he has been able to put pressure on Marquez from behind and then taken advantage of the mistake Marquez has made. That last pass was other worldly though.

Sure. I am always surprised when MM doesn’t crash in these situations given how far he pushes it, but this time I absolutely don’t understand how Dovi kept the Ducati upright.
 
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Sure. I am always surprised when MM doesn’t crash in these situations given how far he pushes it, but this time I absolutely don’t understand how Dovi kept the Ducati upright.

When I saw how far back he was coming from my immediate thought was that's gonna be the championship gone right there. I didn't think he had a chance at pulling that up.
 
Sure. I am always surprised when MM doesn’t crash in these situations given how far he pushes it, but this time I absolutely don’t understand how Dovi kept the Ducati upright.

What do you think the fairings are for?

They aid braking big time.

It's not all Dovi as a lot of people are thinking it is...the aero benefits from the fairings help tremendously with braking distances. Another reason why I'm starting to lean towards the 'they should be banned' side of things.
 
What do you think the fairings are for?

They aid braking big time.

It's not all Dovi as a lot of people are thinking it is...the aero benefits from the fairings help tremendously with braking distances. Another reason why I'm starting to lean towards the 'they should be banned' side of things.

Gotta disagree. Dovi has been the difference, full stop (no pun). Even more so in these rain tire conditions (where neither competed on this year's ongoing tire manipulation). You have an aero package on 'all' the bikes now; why is it an advantage for only Ducati? Each bike is set up to its strengths. Santi had a pre-race interview where he outlines setting up Marc's RCV'S 'advantage' to be strong and stable on the brakes specific for the track, in this case Motegi; where we can't overstate the knowledge Honda has in advance for this event. Dovi beat Marc on the 'brakes' to execute the winning pass. Dovi beat Marquez at a Honda track (understatement). Dovi won that race almost single handedly on rider vs rider, zero to no Ducati advantage, factoring in the Honda advantage. In addition, if the stopping element you attribute to Dovi's Ducati was a pivotal factor, then you must also factor in the fuel conservation disadvantage it must require. More wind resistance requires more sustained power, therefore, when Dovi was in fuel conservation mode for swathes of the race distance, Marquez had an advantage during these periods. This means Dovi not only was the more precise rider, but he was superior in managing the race.

I'm not sure why you still hang on to skepticism regarding Dovi frankly. I understand your general sentiment that Ducati was/is a liability for Dovi's push to be a classic 'contender', but Dovi had already shown strong results and potential for wins and podiums two years now, though it was masked by Iannone taking him out and several issues with the overall package, not the least being the winglets ban. With 6 races to go, I put up a graphic from BeIN Sport that showed over an 18 race period spanning 2016-17 that Dovi would gave been the champion, the point it illustrates is this: Dovi is in fact a championship contender, even on a 'Ducati'. Moreover, though the TV coverage doesn’t show battles down the order, when you watch the timing screen whilst watching the race, one gets a better sense of what's happening with the 'non-important' riders. Dovi has historically battled for position with regularity when he finds himself close to others on track, his lack of tenacity and talent has been grossly misjudged. It's also a conclusion based on parity not ability. I really noticed this when he was teammates with Nicky. (Btw, I recommend watching the timing screen while watching the race, one can learn a lot from it, often far more from what's happening on TV which has an obsession with showing us the fat facial reaction of individuals in the garage.) Timing screens give you a better idea how racers are managing over the race distance, you can see sectors that riders struggle or excel, a lesson I learned from being a bar fly in the AMA paddock (which I know you knew but writing this for benefit of those reading our exchange).

Some make the conclusion that because Marc saves crashes that it confirms his alien status, I don't get this logic. How about not making the mistake that must then be corrected? I say this because if you look at the two duels between Dovi and Marc, Dovi was by far the more precise rider. Precision requires more skill and self discipline, it's one reason why Lorenzo's style was under appreciated. I still laugh when people accuse Marc of willfully not passing Lorenzo at Valencia 15. That was one of the best race performances by Lorenzo I've seen, every lap was run like a qualifying attack. Dovi didn’t have to stand-up Marc, nor block pass, nor overshoot wildly. Add to this that the Ducati is not known for its agility, it makes Dovi's precision all the more praiseworthy. Of course Marc is a great rider, his last lap in the rain to gap Petrucci a second for tge win was awesome, but let's also put it in perspective, it was against Petrucci (who btw, also has that Ducati aero package). To my point, because Marc employs a spectacular wild style we misjudge other's tenacity, in this case Dovi.



Regarding your logic to lean towards a ban of the aero package because it provides some kind of advantage to Ducati (which I dispute below) should we ban other elements of grand prix because certain manufacturers have designed better? It's a question that leads to a Pandora's box for discussion. This reminds me of the proposed desmodromic ban. Well then, let's ban V4s for L4s, or seemless transmissions before others designed theirs, on the premise that if the design advantages one manufacturer over the other it's unfair. Consider, when it's done for performance fixing, there is some merit to this notion of manipulated parity because Dorna's rolling rule book has often been a mechanism to frustrate Ducati. I don't get your logic here to lean towards a aero ban, they all have aero packages now, why is Ducatis' deemed arbitrarily to be the most effective? Is it? They haven't won a championship with it, nor most wins for races since it's introduction. Whatever positive effect from the aero pack it offers Ducati, it's become a way to hang on to the coattails of the perennial Japanese dominance.

Edit: the aero package has also mercifully masked the unpredictability of the front Michelin.

If you live in a glass house don't throw rocks.
 
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how can you compare! dovi is exiting to watch and is going to beat marques this year.
how do i know this. ffs im a redding fan..
jps you look to deep see whats around you!
 
What do you think the fairings are for?

They aid braking big time.

It's not all Dovi as a lot of people are thinking it is...the aero benefits from the fairings help tremendously with braking distances. Another reason why I'm starting to lean towards the 'they should be banned' side of things.

I totally disagree. Did you notice the Ducati tank slapping violently down the straight? Lorenzo has this same 'advantage'. Did he finish second? Honestly I'm surprised at this assessment coming from you. Dovi has chosen to ride and win races without the aero fairing. What was it then, cheater engine. Electronics. You know where I'm going now don't you. 2007. How about we credit the rider. I'll throw down right now, in my opinion there is no rider on the grid that would be able to do any better on the Duc than Dovi is. This year he is an absolute master of this machine. He has a 3 time champ sharing the garage who hasn't come close to winning a race. No other Ducati rider has won a race. It's all down to Dovi he has won 5.

I get you hate aero from what it did to F1, but it's not even close in MotoGP. What you get with Ducati is a non cookie cutter follow the Japanese leader competitor which MotoGP desperately needs. MotoGP aero is nothing like F1. Cars are practically rigid, MotoGP suspension by comparison is ridiculously soft and pretty much a useless platform for employing real aero. Wings are simply a rider aid, some riders need them more than others for the confidence it gives. Dovi is the only rider who has mastered the wingless Duc to the point he now has the luxury of choosing. If we ban aero and we limit electronics why don't we ban Honda seamless gearboxes? Have you seen riders bang through gears with no thought of employing the throttle control even everyday riders are required to learn and use? Put more emphasis on the riders so if Honda can get wings banned fine let's see the aggressive Honda survive without its precious gearbox.
 
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I totally disagree. Did you notice the Ducati tank slapping violently down the straight? Lorenzo has this same 'advantage'. Did he finish second? Honestly I'm surprised at this assessment coming from you. Dovi has chosen to ride and win races without the aero fairing. What was it then, cheater engine. Electronics. You know where I'm going now don't you. 2007. How about we credit the rider. I'll throw down right now, in my opinion there is no rider on the grid that would be able to do any better on the Duc than Dovi is. This year he is an absolute master of this machine. He has a 3 time champ sharing the garage who hasn't come close to winning a race. No other Ducati rider has won a race. It's all down to Dovi he has won 5.

I get you hate aero from what it did to F1, but it's not even close in MotoGP. What you get with Ducati is a non cookie cutter follow the Japanese leader competitor which MotoGP desperately needs. MotoGP aero is nothing like F1. Cars are practically rigid, MotoGP suspension by comparison is ridiculously soft and pretty much a useless platform for employing real aero. Wings are simply a rider aid, some riders need them more than others for the confidence it gives. Dovi is the only rider who has mastered the wingless Duc to the point he now has the luxury of choosing. If we ban aero and we limit electronics why don't we ban Honda seamless gearboxes? Have you seen riders bang through gears with no thought of employing the throttle control even everyday riders are required to learn and use? Put more emphasis on the riders so if Honda can get wings banned fine let's see the aggressive Honda survive without its precious gearbox.

All the factory teams and most satellite teams have seamless gear boxes. That is no longer a Honda advantage.
 
Gotta disagree. Dovi has been the difference, full stop (no pun). Even more so in these rain tire conditions (where neither competed on this year's ongoing tire manipulation). You have an aero package on 'all' the bikes now; why is it an advantage for only Ducati? Each bike is set up to its strengths. Santi had a pre-race interview where he outlines setting up Marc's RCV'S 'advantage' to be strong and stable on the brakes specific for the track, in this case Motegi; where we can't overstate the knowledge Honda has in advance for this event. Dovi beat Marc on the 'brakes' to execute the winning pass. Dovi beat Marquez at a Honda track (understatement). Dovi won that race almost single handedly on rider vs rider, zero to no Ducati advantage, factoring in the Honda advantage. In addition, if the stopping element you attribute to Dovi's Ducati was a pivotal factor, then you must also factor in the fuel conservation disadvantage it must require. More wind resistance requires more sustained power, therefore, when Dovi was in fuel conservation mode for swathes of the race distance, Marquez had an advantage during these periods. This means Dovi not only was the more precise rider, but he was superior in managing the race.

I'm not sure why you still hang on to skepticism regarding Dovi frankly. I understand your general sentiment that Ducati was/is a liability for Dovi's push to be a classic 'contender', but Dovi had already shown strong results and potential for wins and podiums two years now, though it was masked by Iannone taking him out and several issues with the overall package, not the least being the winglets ban. With 6 races to go, I put up a graphic from BeIN Sport that showed over an 18 race period spanning 2016-17 that Dovi would gave been the champion, the point it illustrates is this: Dovi is in fact a championship contender, even on a 'Ducati'. Moreover, though the TV coverage doesn’t show battles down the order, when you watch the timing screen whilst watching the race, one gets a better sense of what's happening with the 'non-important' riders. Dovi has historically battled for position with regularity when he finds himself close to others on track, his lack of tenacity and talent has been grossly misjudged. It's also a conclusion based on parity not ability. I really noticed this when he was teammates with Nicky. (Btw, I recommend watching the timing screen while watching the race, one can learn a lot from it, often far more from what's happening on TV which has an obsession with showing us the fat facial reaction of individuals in the garage.) Timing screens give you a better idea how racers are managing over the race distance, you can see sectors that riders struggle or excel, a lesson I learned from being a bar fly in the AMA paddock (which I know you knew but writing this for benefit of those reading our exchange).

Some make the conclusion that because Marc saves crashes that it confirms his alien status, I don't get this logic. How about not making the mistake that must then be corrected? I say this because if you look at the two duels between Dovi and Marc, Dovi was by far the more precise rider. Precision requires more skill and self discipline, it's one reason why Lorenzo's style was under appreciated. I still laugh when people accuse Marc of willfully not passing Lorenzo at Valencia 15. That was one of the best race performances by Lorenzo I've seen, every lap was run like a qualifying attack. Dovi didn’t have to stand-up Marc, nor block pass, nor overshoot wildly. Add to this that the Ducati is not known for its agility, it makes Dovi's precision all the more praiseworthy. Of course Marc is a great rider, his last lap in the rain to gap Petrucci a second for tge win was awesome, but let's also put it in perspective, it was against Petrucci (who btw, also has that Ducati aero package). To my point, because Marc employs a spectacular wild style we misjudge other's tenacity, in this case Dovi.



Regarding your logic to lean towards a ban of the aero package because it provides some kind of advantage to Ducati (which I dispute below) should we ban other elements of grand prix because certain manufacturers have designed better? It's a question that leads to a Pandora's box for discussion. This reminds me of the proposed desmodromic ban. Well then, let's ban V4s for L4s, or seemless transmissions before others designed theirs, on the premise that if the design advantages one manufacturer over the other it's unfair. Consider, when it's done for performance fixing, there is some merit to this notion of manipulated parity because Dorna's rolling rule book has often been a mechanism to frustrate Ducati. I don't get your logic here to lean towards a aero ban, they all have aero packages now, why is Ducatis' deemed arbitrarily to be the most effective? Is it? They haven't won a championship with it, nor most wins for races since it's introduction. Whatever positive effect from the aero pack it offers Ducati, it's become a way to hang on to the coattails of the perennial Japanese dominance.

Edit: the aero package has also mercifully masked the unpredictability of the front Michelin.

If you live in a glass house don't throw rocks.

I totally disagree. Did you notice the Ducati tank slapping violently down the straight? Lorenzo has this same 'advantage'. Did he finish second? Honestly I'm surprised at this assessment coming from you. Dovi has chosen to ride and win races without the aero fairing. What was it then, cheater engine. Electronics. You know where I'm going now don't you. 2007. How about we credit the rider. I'll throw down right now, in my opinion there is no rider on the grid that would be able to do any better on the Duc than Dovi is. This year he is an absolute master of this machine. He has a 3 time champ sharing the garage who hasn't come close to winning a race. No other Ducati rider has won a race. It's all down to Dovi he has won 5.

I get you hate aero from what it did to F1, but it's not even close in MotoGP. What you get with Ducati is a non cookie cutter follow the Japanese leader competitor which MotoGP desperately needs. MotoGP aero is nothing like F1. Cars are practically rigid, MotoGP suspension by comparison is ridiculously soft and pretty much a useless platform for employing real aero. Wings are simply a rider aid, some riders need them more than others for the confidence it gives. Dovi is the only rider who has mastered the wingless Duc to the point he now has the luxury of choosing. If we ban aero and we limit electronics why don't we ban Honda seamless gearboxes? Have you seen riders bang through gears with no thought of employing the throttle control even everyday riders are required to learn and use? Put more emphasis on the riders so if Honda can get wings banned fine let's see the aggressive Honda survive without its precious gearbox.

I don't have time to type up a long reply, but this is why the fairings need to go. You can design them to minimize drag under acceleration and to increase downforce under braking. Red Bull already did it in F1. You guys really need to think outside and consider the larger picture of what these fairings are going to do to the sport. F1 has long been ....... with flexible materials in the designs of their front wings...they don't want the torsional rigidity that the chassis demands, in their front wing designs.

6NQ3Y04.gif


f1-british-gp-2017-red-bull-racing-front-wing-comparison.jpg


Birdman, I would ban seamless gearboxes for the same reason I would ban the current paddle shifter sequential gearboxes in F1, they require no skill for riders/drivers to operate. Gear shifting should be manual clutch operated and be a requisite skillset of a racer as it was for decades.

If you guys want an aero arms race enjoy it, it will ruin GP.

Already watched F1 ruin itself with this .... because the rules makers don't understand aerodynamics anywhere near as well as the actual aerodynamacists do. F1 still maintains a flat bottom rule from 1983....lol...
 
I don't have time to type up a long reply, but this is why the fairings need to go. ..

I was replying to your assertion that Dovi was aided by some fairing advantage.

.....

Separate point:

I think we need to be careful about F1 comparisons, you've implied yourself, 4 wheels vs 2 wheels might as well be another universe.

MotoGP≠F1

If you live in a glass house don't throw rocks.
 
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I totally disagree. Did you notice the Ducati tank slapping violently down the straight? Lorenzo has this same 'advantage'. Did he finish second? Honestly I'm surprised at this assessment coming from you. Dovi has chosen to ride and win races without the aero fairing. What was it then, cheater engine. Electronics. You know where I'm going now don't you. 2007. How about we credit the rider. I'll throw down right now, in my opinion there is no rider on the grid that would be able to do any better on the Duc than Dovi is. This year he is an absolute master of this machine. He has a 3 time champ sharing the garage who hasn't come close to winning a race. No other Ducati rider has won a race. It's all down to Dovi he has won 5.

I get you hate aero from what it did to F1, but it's not even close in MotoGP. What you get with Ducati is a non cookie cutter follow the Japanese leader competitor which MotoGP desperately needs. MotoGP aero is nothing like F1. Cars are practically rigid, MotoGP suspension by comparison is ridiculously soft and pretty much a useless platform for employing real aero. Wings are simply a rider aid, some riders need them more than others for the confidence it gives. Dovi is the only rider who has mastered the wingless Duc to the point he now has the luxury of choosing. If we ban aero and we limit electronics why don't we ban Honda seamless gearboxes? Have you seen riders bang through gears with no thought of employing the throttle control even everyday riders are required to learn and use? Put more emphasis on the riders so if Honda can get wings banned fine let's see the aggressive Honda survive without its precious gearbox.

The slapping was because he was not in MM's slipstream. He was in his 'dirty' air, off to the side.
 
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I was replying to your assertion that Dovi was aided by some fairing advantage.

.....

Short answer: He is.

The fairings do aid braking distances. Simple product of how the airflow runs through them.

For the record, the greatest braker of the 4-stroke era of GP is Valentino Rossi. No one else is close to Rossi on the brakes.

I also have come to the conclusion that Rossi earned every single one of his 7 premier class titles fairly.
 
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