What does Marquez have to do to be GOAT.

michaelm · Oct 20, 2017

JPSLotus said:
Short answer: He is.

The fairings do aid braking distances. Simple product of how the airflow runs through them.

For the record, the greatest braker of the 4-stroke era of GP is Valentino Rossi. No one else is close to Rossi on the brakes.

I also have come to the conclusion that Rossi earned every single one of his 7 premier class titles fairly.

I have always thought Valentino won his titles fairly ie by being the best rider in the world in the years concerned.

My objection has always been to the Valeban/boppers claiming or deriding titles won fairly by other riders, particularly the 2006, 2007 and 2015 titles.

AntG · Oct 20, 2017

michaelm said:
I have always thought Valentino won his titles fairly ie by being the best rider in the world in the years concerned.

My objection has always been to the Valeban/boppers claiming or deriding titles won fairly by other riders, particularly the 2006, 2007 and 2015 titles.

Same. Rossi was fantastic 2001-2005.

Dr No · Oct 20, 2017

JPSLotus said:
Short answer: He is.

The fairings do aid braking distances. Simple product of how the airflow runs through them.

For the record, the greatest braker of the 4-stroke era of GP is Valentino Rossi. No one else is close to Rossi on the brakes.

I also have come to the conclusion that Rossi earned every single one of his 7 premier class titles fairly.

The only force the wings can add to the front tyre goes via the fork springs. (Well, duuhr...) Bike pitches, lifts CoG, available braking force decreases.
Maybe a little advantage on initial application ?? Like Birdman wrote, bikes are soft as .... compared to open wheelers (just look at the wheel rates and stop thinking Eff Wun).
Not convinced, but prepared to be...

Jumkie · Oct 20, 2017

JPSLotus said:
Short answer: He is.

The fairings do aid braking distances. Simple product of how the airflow runs through them.

For the record, the greatest braker of the 4-stroke era of GP is Valentino Rossi. No one else is close to Rossi on the brakes.

I also have come to the conclusion that Rossi earned every single one of his 7 premier class titles fairly.

Ok, I don't know what to make of this post. Not sure if you're making some alternate point that I'm not getting or what, but anyway, I disagree.

Jumkie · Oct 20, 2017

michaelm said:
I have always thought Valentino won his titles fairly ie by being the best rider in the world in the years concerned.

My objection has always been to the Valeban/boppers claiming or deriding titles won fairly by other riders, particularly the 2006, 2007 and 2015 titles.

There is absolutely no way to determine the magnitude of the advantage Rossi had on his personal tires against others on 2nd/3rd tier material; Casey Stoner was very clear about this even in 2006, the last year of the SNS era (I cite CS particularly because he spoke about this reality specifically, and I assume you believe him. Incidentally, makes me wonder what Viñalez might say today if he were willing to speak his mind) Alas, it is a plausible viable position then, using your assertion, that SNS may have hindered Rossi's run of titles! It is a 'reasonable' position to argue! The conventional wisdom is flipped, instead of perceiving all these years that exclusive personal tires advantaged Rossi, perhaps all this time he was frustrated. More over, through the convention of rules book, regardless of advantage or disadvantage, it is 'always' "fair". Ironically, Rossi himself blamed poor tire performance for his inability to "win" the championship. Either Casey Stoner a liar or the SNS did in fact present significant advantage to Rossi, "fairly". One interesting question to ponder is not how well Rossi would perform on SNS, but how he might perform on 2nd/3rd tires against those on tires they personally preferred. If my aunt... Except there are examples in Rossi's career where we can reasonably extrapolate what might have been, namely his Ducati stint. And, Rossi's resurgence post-Bridstone coinciding with the introduction of Michelin. Nonetheless, the discussion is futile.

I've read you say this often, and I've marveled the same every time to be honest. I don't get it. But, I'm learning this year, particularly in light of our political climate, that 'all' debate is futile. We're all going to 'believe' what we believe, in the face or the absence of evidence, logic, reason, probability, and simple connection of dots. The ocean is made of water, no it's not! The sun is hotter than pluto, no it's not! Rossi had personal tires made for him to compete against others on far inferior material which resulted in unreliable, exaggerated, skewed, outcomes, no it didn't. The SNS helped Rossi, no, they hurt Rossi! It is a "fair" position to take.

Keshav · Oct 20, 2017

michaelm said:
I have always thought Valentino won his titles fairly ie by being the best rider in the world in the years concerned.

My objection has always been to the Valeban/boppers claiming or deriding titles won fairly by other riders, particularly the 2006, 2007 and 2015 titles.

Even without the SNS advantage - Rossi benefited unfairly (as did all factory riders) in that the satellite riders (according to Stoner's bio) would over the practice periods, try different combinations of tires available and sometimes come up with a winning set-up, only to be told by Michelin .........s, that they had to ride whatever the .... tires Michelin prescribed at the last minute, and they were virtually never any of the tires the satellite riders wanted. Is it any wonder that Stoner was in such a hurry to turn his back on Michelin and work with Bridgestone?

michaelm · Oct 20, 2017

Jumkie said:
There is absolutely no way to determine the magnitude of the advantage Rossi had on his personal tires against others on 2nd/3rd tier material; Casey Stoner was very clear about this even in 2006, the last year of the SNS era (I cite CS particularly because he spoke about this reality specifically, and I assume you believe him. Incidentally, makes me wonder what Viñalez might say today if he were willing to speak his mind) Alas, it is a plausible viable position then, using your assertion, that SNS may have hindered Rossi's run of titles! It is a 'reasonable' position to argue! The conventional wisdom is flipped, instead of perceiving all these years that exclusive personal tires advantaged Rossi, perhaps all this time he was frustrated. More over, through the convention of rules book, regardless of advantage or disadvantage, it is 'always' "fair". Ironically, Rossi himself blamed poor tire performance for his inability to "win" the championship. Either Casey Stoner a liar or the SNS did in fact present significant advantage to Rossi, "fairly". One interesting question to ponder is not how well Rossi would perform on SNS, but how he might perform on 2nd/3rd tires against those on tires they personally preferred. If my aunt... Except there are examples in Rossi's career where we can reasonably extrapolate what might have been, namely his Ducati stint. And, Rossi's resurgence post-Bridstone coinciding with the introduction of Michelin. Nonetheless, the discussion is futile.

I've read you say this often, and I've marveled the same every time to be honest. I don't get it. But, I'm learning this year, particularly in light of our political climate, that 'all' debate is futile. We're all going to 'believe' what we believe, in the face or the absence of evidence, logic, reason, probability, and simple connection of dots. The ocean is made of water, no it's not! The sun is hotter than pluto, no it's not! Rossi had personal tires made for him to compete against others on far inferior material which resulted in unreliable, exaggerated, skewed, outcomes, no it didn't. The SNS helped Rossi, no, they hurt Rossi! It is a "fair" position to take.

You and I come from the same place as you are aware, incensed by the derision and claims of equipment advantage directed at Hayden and Stoner by the Valeban/boppers for the sin of riding exceptional seasons to win world titles, particularly when their boy had almost invariably benefited from having the best equipment himself. I had never posted anywhere on the internet before the 2007 year of GP bike racing.

Perhaps my choice of words was poor, his title years definitely weren’t fair if you were a backmarker, Michelin ran a rigged game, possibly why Carmelo loves them now cf the other thread. That was their long term policy however and not specific to Rossi imo, and if you are going to go down that path the titles of Doohan and the golden era riders come into some question as well. He obviously had a ridiculous advantage in 2002 which no rider, be it Hailwood, Marquez or whomever, could have overcome if they were restricted to alternative 2002 equipment. That advantage accrued to him because he was the lead HRC rider though, not because he was Rossi per se. I do think he was a better rider at the times they competed than the likes of Biaggi and Gibernau, and not hugely superior but still superior to Lorenzo in 2009. He also rode a great season in 2008; whether Stoner and Ducati were hampered by various tyre machinations without which they would have got closer we will never know, but Rossi himself rode a great season.

I am not at all on board with what I see as tyre manipulation to the detriment of Stoner in 2012 and other riders, specifically Lorenzo and Vinales, more recently.

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