Was that not said by someone within the paddock (not a rider)?
For some reason I seem to recall a comment similar to 'he is that good he could put a turd on pole' ............. but cannot remember who.
VR Effect: Negative Repercussion for GP
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Was that not said by someone within the paddock (not a rider)?
For some reason I seem to recall a comment similar to 'he is that good he could put a turd on pole' ............. but cannot remember who.
Joined Jul 2011
1K Posts | 872+
Dont Know
Im more interested why it became more difficult in 08 and 12. Because these are the specific years handicaps were being applied, not by Ducati or Honda, by Ezzy, to aid Rossi. Thus the relevance to the thread title, negative repercussions for GP, specifically by the Rossi fan base. Changing rules are bad for the sport in the long term.
It's nothing to celebrate to me that a rider was able to remain competitive while the odds were being stacked against them. It had greater negative repercussions than those to Ducati, for instance Kawasaki immediately left the sport.
Krops wrote a great piece on it. Negative repercussions. Again, we see PI should be one of the all time great races, a true classic. How the hell did we get from that race, one to celebrate for the ages, to the present, calling for a riders head? Because to many one rider is more important than the sport itself?
J4rno is unquestionably a Stoner (and Ducati) admirer who has always given Stoner full credit.
His post was a little tangential to the point I was making, in reply to another poster who accused "Stoner nut huggers" of being selective in focusing on VR's 2 years at Ducati, to which my answer was that Stoner spent 4 years there.
The situation is complex in regard to how much being at Ducati hampered Stoner; obviously his own health issues hampered him more than the bike in 2009, and tyre changes hampered him as well as Birdman has subsequently posted, but that amounts to the same thing as the Ducati hampering him. I do respectfully disagree with J4rno that Stoner wouldn't have been better off on a factory Honda or Yamaha overall in his Ducati years, or in 2006 for that matter, although I obviously have to agree he couldn't have done much better than he did in 2007 whatever bike he was on. It is my opinion only of course, but I would suggest Rossi's record would not be as good for the years 2007-2010 had he been on a Ducati rather than a Yamaha, and I am not sure how he would have gone on the LCR Honda in 2006 with the same level of funding and the same tyres as Stoner had at his disposal either; doubtless better than a rookie Stoner, but I doubt as well as he did on the factory Yamaha on SNS tyres even if the 2006 Yamaha wasn't one of that marque's better efforts.
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My comment was more in general Mike as I actually read J4's comments as more praise for Stoner (as you say, he is a Rossi fan who has unabashedly praised CS for years) where it seemed that others had read it differently (as is their right).
The thing we all have to face is that CS was on the Ducati for 4 years, VR for 2 and no matter what we think, dream or wish for, that is history and so we can only assess based on that time period
Me, I will say now that VR's 2 years at Ducati were poor. Poor for him, poor for Ducati and poor in terms of results that were expected but did not come.
A good point J4 has raised though is that of CS' results in 2007 and 2011 on bikes that had not been producing results ........... to me those showed that CS is at his best on a bike that is not 100% and needs to be ridden. Additionally, as you and others have said many times, 2012 was looking similar up until a late (some say very late) change in tyre construction which had a very negative effect on the Honda's
Hi all,
I joined this forum after that little incident towards the end of this season when rossi turned left whereas the circuit indicated the corner went to the right. I couldn't believe he didn't lose all his points from that race.
Immediately after that, my resolve was to boycott motogp. (I'm sure all the sponsors were quaking in their boots.) However, that would hardly have been fair to Lorenzo, Marquez, Iannone, etc.
I have been watching this stuff since 1989 and I have never seen such blatant ........ except from this one guy during all that time. The very first race I saw rossi run was on a 125 he was already doing the .... that he now accuses Marquez of doing. This year at Assen was the first salvo and sign of the nastiness to come. Maybe technically he did nothing provably wrong at the end of the race at Assen but it sure left a bad taste in my mouth.
Race direction should have DQ'd him or docked points when he passed Stoner for the lead on the dirt in the Corkscrew. Same thing should have happened at Assen 2015. If you derive an advantage from cutting the corner you should have to give up that advantage. Since when is cutting a corner seen as acceptable racing? Race direction should have DQ'd him or docked his points every time he ran somebody off the race track too. But they didn't and he continued the practice. He has been doing it for years. Personally I mute the TV when he is interviewed and I don't read any of his comments during a race weekend. If that tells you anything of what I think of him.
I think casual observers would be turned off by rossi's childish antics. There was exciting racing with lots of fans before rossi and there will be also after he's gone.
I really look forward to him leaving. MotoGP will be the better for it.
I joined this forum after that little incident towards the end of this season when rossi turned left whereas the circuit indicated the corner went to the right. I couldn't believe he didn't lose all his points from that race.
Immediately after that, my resolve was to boycott motogp. (I'm sure all the sponsors were quaking in their boots.) However, that would hardly have been fair to Lorenzo, Marquez, Iannone, etc.
I have been watching this stuff since 1989 and I have never seen such blatant ........ except from this one guy during all that time. The very first race I saw rossi run was on a 125 he was already doing the .... that he now accuses Marquez of doing. This year at Assen was the first salvo and sign of the nastiness to come. Maybe technically he did nothing provably wrong at the end of the race at Assen but it sure left a bad taste in my mouth.
Race direction should have DQ'd him or docked points when he passed Stoner for the lead on the dirt in the Corkscrew. Same thing should have happened at Assen 2015. If you derive an advantage from cutting the corner you should have to give up that advantage. Since when is cutting a corner seen as acceptable racing? Race direction should have DQ'd him or docked his points every time he ran somebody off the race track too. But they didn't and he continued the practice. He has been doing it for years. Personally I mute the TV when he is interviewed and I don't read any of his comments during a race weekend. If that tells you anything of what I think of him.
I think casual observers would be turned off by rossi's childish antics. There was exciting racing with lots of fans before rossi and there will be also after he's gone.
I really look forward to him leaving. MotoGP will be the better for it.
Joined Oct 2008
6K Posts | 5K+
In Cider
That IS a good point Bern1. All the Rossi fans use the argument that Marquez whould have been penalised for his perfomance in Sepang as it was unsporting and premeditated and the proof is plain to see, whereas when some on here questioned Rossi's gravel run in Assen, any notion or suggestion that it was premeditated or unsporting was veciferously shot down by many. How can they say so surely that Rossi's 'escape plan' in Assen wasn't premeditated?
Joined Nov 2015
872 Posts | 420+
Stratosphere
It's damned ironic how many people are now now agreeing with that sentiment now. At the time of the event race fans who expressed this sentiment were a very tiny minority and they were roundly ridiculed for saying this. I've looked around at various forums I've spent time on and noted that more than a few fans who wholly defended Rossi then are now now taking him to task for the same move. It's astounding how fickle some so-called fans are. I for one have never cared for his whole act, but in some sense, he is a creation of the public in that so many fans praised him and defended his actions. He's Dorna's Frankenstein and now the villagers are at the gates with torches and hammers.
Joined Apr 2015
6K Posts | 5K+
NJ
Joined Apr 2015
6K Posts | 5K+
NJ
MotoGP won out with the coverage. They got richer and richer from all of the attention.
VR will go through the off-season sitting at his ranch with his yes-men around the table verbally fellating him about the title that should have been, but was taken from him. Hopefully this lingers well into 2016 so he can fry out.
MM will get booed at every circuit by the boppers, but I suspect he won't care. Kid is mentally tougher than I ever thought he was. Big question is how well he adapts to the Michelins over race distance. It's clear he's got the speed even on these tires, just a matter of whether he develops more consistency.
JL was a worthy champion even though the Yellow Horde and VR's ministers of propaganda...er I mean "journalists" are intent on trying to undermine the title win. If the two helmet malfunctions do not occur, there is no #TheGrandFinale ......... Title would have been locked up in Sepang. Good for JL because at least his greed for the HJC money didn't cost him the title.
VR is not a GOAT. He was a guy who benefited immensely from being given the "unfair advantage" for the entire duration of his career. 2006 --where we had probably the most equal machinery we will ever see in MotoGP in the post 500cc era-- showed that the biggest advantage VR had was in tires. Estoril showed that had the tires been equal for all riders, VR doesn't even go into Valencia that year with a chance to win.
At the end of the day, VR gives not one .... about MotoGP, which is kind of ironic given how much of a .... MotoGP gives about him. His behavior post-Phillip Island is what I would term, "bringing the sport into disrepute". Any other rider doing what VR did would have been gagged and bagged, and likely threatened with a tremendous fine to put a stop to it. Instead he carries on without any care to the long-term damage he's doing to grand prix motorcycle racing. I wouldn't expect Dorna to do anything because they are as clueless as the bulk of VR's fanbase when it comes to considering any moment beyond the immediate present.
VR will go through the off-season sitting at his ranch with his yes-men around the table verbally fellating him about the title that should have been, but was taken from him. Hopefully this lingers well into 2016 so he can fry out.
MM will get booed at every circuit by the boppers, but I suspect he won't care. Kid is mentally tougher than I ever thought he was. Big question is how well he adapts to the Michelins over race distance. It's clear he's got the speed even on these tires, just a matter of whether he develops more consistency.
JL was a worthy champion even though the Yellow Horde and VR's ministers of propaganda...er I mean "journalists" are intent on trying to undermine the title win. If the two helmet malfunctions do not occur, there is no #TheGrandFinale ......... Title would have been locked up in Sepang. Good for JL because at least his greed for the HJC money didn't cost him the title.
VR is not a GOAT. He was a guy who benefited immensely from being given the "unfair advantage" for the entire duration of his career. 2006 --where we had probably the most equal machinery we will ever see in MotoGP in the post 500cc era-- showed that the biggest advantage VR had was in tires. Estoril showed that had the tires been equal for all riders, VR doesn't even go into Valencia that year with a chance to win.
At the end of the day, VR gives not one .... about MotoGP, which is kind of ironic given how much of a .... MotoGP gives about him. His behavior post-Phillip Island is what I would term, "bringing the sport into disrepute". Any other rider doing what VR did would have been gagged and bagged, and likely threatened with a tremendous fine to put a stop to it. Instead he carries on without any care to the long-term damage he's doing to grand prix motorcycle racing. I wouldn't expect Dorna to do anything because they are as clueless as the bulk of VR's fanbase when it comes to considering any moment beyond the immediate present.
Joined Oct 2006
25K Posts | 4K+
Your Mom's House
I wonder what forums and social media you tune in to, as I think Powerslide is vastly unique in this regard, as a bastion of members decidedly consistent and from before this debacle pointed out the peculiarities of Rossi. Also, I haven't noticed this "fickle" turn on Rossi you speak of, in fact I'd say the opposite is true, taking Rossi’s lead, his fans have double-downed on this notion Valentino got robbed by two Spanish riders that conspired against him.
I think perhaps what you may be noticing is boppers have left the places their insane notions were challenged, whereby fans of a more level headed opinion have prevailed. But I suspect these boppers have retreated to spaces where it's become an echo chamber. Anytime I see Marc or Lorenzo mention in social media, regardless of the context their names come up mind you, the barrage of negative comments from bopper ensues the narrative.
Joined Apr 2015
6K Posts | 5K+
NJ
I've seen overwhelming support for VR after all of the events that went on post-PI.
I was banned off of one forum recently for daring to call out posters over their Spanish conspiracy theories relating to trying to prevent VR from winning a title. One poster claimed that during FP when MM nearly high-sided in Valencia, it was due to trying to sell the idea that his bike isn't perfect.
The narrative is still about VR getting robbed and what have you.
Very few have opposed this.
Kropo was the only well-known journalist who didn't take the usual party lines. Every one else has hedged their bets.
I was banned off of one forum recently for daring to call out posters over their Spanish conspiracy theories relating to trying to prevent VR from winning a title. One poster claimed that during FP when MM nearly high-sided in Valencia, it was due to trying to sell the idea that his bike isn't perfect.
The narrative is still about VR getting robbed and what have you.
Very few have opposed this.
Kropo was the only well-known journalist who didn't take the usual party lines. Every one else has hedged their bets.
Joined Oct 2007
4K Posts | 744+
Tuscany, Italy
Which handicaps are you referring to?
Historically the big rule changer in MotoGP is Honda, not Rossi or any other rider. Neither can a fanbase change the rules.
Honda enforced first the 800cc, then the 20 liters and 6 engines rules, and pushed the development of electronics to the max, creating a compounded effect that provoked Suzuki's and Kawasaki's exit. Now that these rules are being relaxed and electronics put under check, we see more manufacturers returning or coming for the first time.
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Joined Apr 2008
7K Posts | 3K+
Out of Nowhere
Actually, I'd argue HRC are very much in favour of the shareware too. Their own torque sensors (which they will be permitted to use) are a technology that they are not only highly familiar with, but something that they have amassed zettabytes of data on through substantial R&D. Although this will work in the same way as the claiming rule, but the new unfamiliar control software and such deployment of sensors which is at the discretion of any team that chooses to adopt them will also be best exploited by the army of data technicians at HRCs disposal.
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Joined Oct 2007
4K Posts | 744+
Tuscany, Italy
True and very interesting. Thanks. Which demonstrates how Honda is always there bending even shareware to their use by retaining not only the torque sensor, but also their proprietary inertial platform (that will be considered a sensor and so not claimable or shared).
However my question was about which regulations were supposedly created to "help" Rossi.
If anything, MotoGP seems to do fairly well. With google trends showing the highest interest in 2015 since foerever.
https://www.google.ca/trends/explore#q=motogp&cmpt=q&tz=Etc/GMT+5
After all is said and done, this had a positive impact on MotoGP
https://www.google.ca/trends/explore#q=motogp&cmpt=q&tz=Etc/GMT+5
After all is said and done, this had a positive impact on MotoGP
Joined Aug 2007
11K Posts | 3K+
Pomona NY
People using Google to look up precedents and oddball info that may or may not back up their arguments over this incident - are hardly a forecaster of future income to Dorna. It's just a case of the usual people in a frenzy of searching to discuss to this to death. I don't seriously think you can say increased Google searches will be parlayed into increased attendance at races or increased viewership
I don't think Rossi should have been disqualified at LS 2008. What should have happened, seems to be the rule in motogp now, and has usually been the case in most forms of motorsport, is that he should have been required to give back a place that he had gained or kept (the latter is what Rossi did at the corkscrew back then) by going off the track. It wasn't at all clear, however, iirc that there was such a general or local rule which applied to the Corkscrew incident back then. My consistent view in regard to the incident is that Stoner had very adequate grounds for being annoyed, in that it was a riding error that nearly resulted in him being torpedoed through no error of his when in control of his bike on the racing line. I also don't think he was thrilled about nearly being forced off the track, again when on the racing line, on the lead-up to the Corkscrew. I disagree with little Walter that attitudes have changed to that incident, and whether or not this forum is a "Rossi Haters Forum" I think many other forums are much more on Rossi's side in regard to recent events. What those events do throw into sharp relief for me is the hypocrisy of Rossi fans and perhaps Rossi himself in view of their attitudes to the corkscrew LS 08 thing, and in particular Stoner's characterisation as a whinger/whiner; any whinging by Stoner back then has been vastly eclipsed.
I don't disagree with RD's decision in regard to Assen 2015, even though watching live I wanted MM to win the race to help JL's championship bid. Perhaps it was humiliating for MM that Rossi apparently outsmarted and anticipated him, and moved in advance of more substantial contact, but there was no way imo that MM was making that corner at that speed and on that trajectory without forcing Rossi off the track or torpedoing him if he didn't move. MM perhaps had reason to believe such a move was legitimate though, since RD allowed his move on JL at Jerez 2013, and the Assen incident does provide evidence imo for J4rn0's contention on the "Untouchables" thread.
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Joined Oct 2011
248 Posts | 112+
Adelaide
I am shocked at MM mental toughness. He seemed to roll with the punches thrown at him all season and still fought on unfazed. If he can handle Rossi's allegations, the action on the track followed by endless criticism, then he is the mental equivalent of "Muhammad, I'm hard, Bruce Lee". The only crack I witnessed was the criticism of Stoner's development skills.
No doubt true in general, and hence all the more remarkable (and why it stretched Stoner's credulity as well as Birdman's and mine that it was unrelated to Stoner) that for a 6 or 12 month period Honda were apparently on the outer and having rules changed against them, neatly coinciding with Stoner being dominant on their bike, after similar major rule changes had occurred following a previous dominant title win by Stoner for a different manufacturer.
Doubtless the rule changes could have been multifactorial in their motivation, but you can hardly blame Stoner for not considering it all to be entirely coincidental, and I have no doubt the weight limit change in the case of Honda, and the tyre changes with both marques significantly impacted the performance of the respective bikes.
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