VR Effect: Negative Repercussion for GP

J4rn0 · Nov 21, 2015

Jumkie said:
Welcome back J4rn0. Still wondering if we'll ever see Talps. So let me get this straight, Stoner wasn't handicapped by a machine that absolutely nobody else won on in the dry? You still on Valium?

Jums, try reading before answering, for a change. It won't hurt you.

It is to Stoner's credit that he wasn't handicapped by the Ducati as all others were, of course -- but it is a fact that his results on the Honda in 2011 and 2012 were not better than his results on the Ducati in 2007 and 2008. That means that Ducati -- at least in 2007 and 2008 -- did have competitive potential (that he was the only one capable to exploit) and so it wasn't limiting him, in those years, any more than the Honda was limiting him in 2011 and 2012.

paparazzo · Nov 21, 2015

When Casey Stoner wasn't winning it's the machine that's the limiting factor. When it's Valentini Rossi, it's his inability as a rider that's the limiting factor. What a surprise coming from this forum.

AntG · Nov 21, 2015

paparazzo said:
If this, if that...if if if. If you had wheels you'd be a pushcart. The Hayden/Stoner ball suckers on this site only cling to Ducati to try and prove that Rossi is an inferior rider, 100 plus wins and 9 titles be damned. In actually fact you should be thankful for those 2 years cause had he continued winning the anger and hate would be through the roof here. GTFO

I tend to see Stoner as the superior rider because he took a massive .... on everyone when it rained. Silverstone 2011 is quite possibly the best display of wet weather riding I've ever seen.

Jumkie · Nov 21, 2015

J4rn0 said:
Jums, try reading before answering, for a change. It won't hurt you.
It is to Stoner's credit that he wasn't handicapped by the Ducati as all others were, of course -- but it is a fact that his results on the Honda in 2011 and 2012 were not better than his results on the Ducati in 2007 and 2008. That means that Ducati -- at least in 2007 and 2008 -- did have competitive potential (that he was the only one capable to exploit) and so it wasn't limiting him, in those years, any more than the Honda was limiting him in 2011 and 2012.

Hahaha this is fascinating my friend.
This is a new angle you are taking, to argue the Ducati suited Stoner like a glove that it was not a handicap but rather some advantage. This reminds me of a defense argued here by 7 cops who beat a homeless man to death, on video. Their defense lawyer argued, successfully no less, that the homeless man died because his body was weak on account of being homeless. In other words, it was the victim at fault, the 7 cops pummeling him wouldn't have result in death had the man been more proactive in living in a home given people who live in homes are more healthy. Insane! The jury was in fact swayed by the defense argument. That's the world we live in, so I'm not surprised you and boppers have reacted the way u have to the Docalypse of 2015.

Honestly I'm glad you're back, remember bro the pain gets slightly easier every day. I don't think "handicap" must translate the same in Italian (or Bopper). The RCV Stoner rode was often the bike he needed to beat on the track! Having to beat his own teammate. In other words, the RCV was competitive while the Ducati was a turd that only the talent of Stoner overcame, on the occasions he could. Ultimately it was the ankle injury at Indy that ended his title run, otherwise there is a great likelihood Stoner would have won the championship 2/2 on the factory RCV!

Keshav · Nov 21, 2015

J4rn0 said:
Hmmm, considering Ducati as a handicap for any rider at any time is maybe too much. From a competitive point of view, the only thing that matters is whether a rider can fully exploit the potential of a given bike or not, and if that potential can allow wins. Stoner could exploit the Ducati fully, -- demonstration is he was winning on it -- so he wasn't especially handicapped in his Ducati years (especially in 2007 and 2008).

He may have been limited by Ducati's development (and other) problems in 2009 an 2010, and in fact when he went to Honda in 2011 he immediately won the title again -- but interestingly, even on the Honda, in 2011 and 2012 he did not win more races or titles than on the Ducati in 2007 and 2008. So it seems at least in those two years the Ducati wasn't a limiting factor for him.

Considering the period during which Rossi rode for Ducati was so chaotic with changing sponsors and and desperate R&D engineers throwing everything including the kitchen sink, pell-mell at the bike in hopes of making it rideable for Rossi - one can only speculate that that the whole project was one big goat rodeo (pun not intended) and that the bikes were changing too fast for anyone to adjust their style to them; forget about being competitive on them. Honestly - in all that confusion - I don't think the potential was there. Too many cooks stirring the pot.

J4rn0 · Nov 21, 2015

Jumkie said:
Hahaha this is fascinating my friend.
This is a new angle you are taking, to argue the Ducati suited Stoner like a glove that it was not a handicap but rather some advantage. This reminds me of a defense argued here by 7 cops who beat a homeless man to death, on video. Their defense lawyer argued, successfully no less, that the homeless man died because his body was weak on account of being homeless. In other words, it was the victim at fault, the 7 cops pummeling him wouldn't have result in death had the man been more proactive in living in a home given people who live in homes are more healthy. Insane! The jury was in fact swayed by the defense argument. That's the world we live in, so I'm not surprised you and boppers have reacted the way u have to the Docalypse of 2015.

Honestly I'm glad you're back, remember bro the pain gets slightly easier every day. I don't think "handicap" must translate the same in Italian (or Bopper). The RCV Stoner rode was often the bike he needed to beat on the track! Having to beat his own teammate. In other words, the RCV was competitive while the Ducati was a turd that only the talent of Stoner overcame, on the occasions he could. Ultimately it was the ankle injury at Indy that ended his title run, otherwise there is a great likelihood Stoner would have won the championship 2/2 on the factory RCV!

Oh yeah, you are visibly as happy to have me here as the Neanderthal man must have been happy to meet the .... Sapiens in front of his cave...

I remember the 2012 ankle injury very well, still Casey's best season ever was 2007 on a Ducati. Can't say that was such a handicap for him. And I for one dream of him having another great season on a Ducati in 2017.

Jumkie · Nov 21, 2015

paparazzo said:
When Casey Stoner wasn't winning it's the machine that's the limiting factor. When it's Valentini Rossi, it's his inability as a rider that's the limiting factor. What a surprise coming from this forum.

Casey Stoner handed Rossi a bike that could win and podium regularly. Did you forget that fact? You know, since that's your big logical position, that nobody will remember and all. Stoner not only won on the bike Rossi inherited but also podiumed on it the exact day before he gave it to Rossi. Who then had trouble cracking the top 15! Hahaha. Any more bright ..... u want to present there bozzo?

feros · Nov 21, 2015

J4rn0 said:
It is to Stoner's credit that he wasn't handicapped by the Ducati as all others were, of course -- but it is a fact that his results on the Honda in 2011 and 2012 were not better than his results on the Ducati in 2007 and 2008. That means that Ducati -- at least in 2007 and 2008 -- did have competitive potential (that he was the only one capable to exploit) and so it wasn't limiting him, in those years, any more than the Honda was limiting him in 2011 and 2012.

i completely understand your point and to some degree agree with it, but just remember even in 2009 he was still winning and getting podium with that bike, and i think i remeber hearing somewhere nicky hayden saying" i dont understand how casey can ride this bike so fast".

dont you think the fact that his results on honda and ducati being pretty much the same is actually a verdict for the fact that he is the kind of a rider who COMMANDS ( for the lack of a better word and my clumsy English) the bike and not rely on it, i bet if he was on any bike during 2006-2012 he would pretty much get the same result,maybe he wasnt relying to the bikes he was riding, which i dont think is the case with Rossi. really dont think that means a superior rider but he had some peculiar talent.

J4rn0 · Nov 21, 2015

AntG said:
I tend to see Stoner as the superior rider because he took a massive .... on everyone when it rained. Silverstone 2011 is quite possibly the best display of wet weather riding I've ever seen.

True, but watch Le Mans 2012 ad well. Just to be fair.

AntG · Nov 21, 2015

Fair point J4rn0

michaelm · Nov 21, 2015

J4rn0 said:
Oh yeah, you are visibly as happy to have me here as the Neanderthal man must have been happy to meet the .... Sapiens in front of his cave...

I remember the 2012 ankle injury very well, still Casey's best season ever was 2007 on a Ducati. Can't say that was such a handicap for him. And I for one dream of him having another great season on a Ducati in 2017.

The 2011 and 2007 seasons were fairly equivalent, and each about as a good a season as was possible given the standard of his opposition. I have no problem with saying that Stoner perhaps only had 2 such seasons in him whilst Valentino has obviously had many more. 2012 however did involve late regulation changes which significantly affected a bike on which Stoner had been totally dominant in the early testing, he did break his ankle probably significantly related to a substandard track, and it emerges didn't really want to be there anyway having been dissuaded by Nakomoto from retiring immediately after winning the 2011 championship. I do however have some sympathy with the view expressed by Agostini that Stoner was somewhat like Hailwood in that he could ride a bike fast which no-one else could ride but benefited less than others from a "good" bike. Also there is no doubt it remains incredibly impressive particularly given the size of the Ducati equipe at the time and the technical complexity required for the 800 formula that they could come up with a bike in the 2007 Ducati that could win a championship against HRC and Yamaha in any circumstances.

I think your memory is a little selective regarding the 2008 bike, even Stoner had considerable early season problems with that bike other than at Qatar which was second only to PI as a favourite track for him. He couldn't get the bike to turn early season, particularly at Estoril, and eventually had an engine related mechanical DNF which led to Ducati reverting to the 2007 engine. It would also not seem unlikely that, rather than Stoner having a 1 second a lap intrinsic bike advantage at the famous LS 2008 race which VR managed to cut to 0.5 seconds, Stoner was actually riding the thing 1.5 seconds faster than anyone else could have ridden it. Carlo Pernat has actually straight out said that what looked like deficiencies in Stoner's riding (all the doesn't like mixing it at close quarters etc stuff) were related to characteristics of the bike ie that it just wouldn't turn.

Arrabbiata1 · Nov 21, 2015

michaelm said:
I do however have some sympathy with the view expressed by Agostini that Stoner was somewhat like Hailwood in that he could ride a bike fast which no-one else could ride but benefited less than others from a "good" bike.

Michael, the events of the last few weeks have convinced me that most Valentino 'fans' would struggle to even name Mike, far less have any informed knowledge of his achievements, yet in the next sentence brazenly insist that Valentino is 'the greatest of all time'.

AntG · Nov 21, 2015

Somebody on this forum claimed they'd never heard of Mike or cared who he was

Arrabbiata1 · Nov 21, 2015

J4rn0 said:
True, but watch Le Mans 2012 ad well. Just to be fair.

Actually, I'd say Donington 2005 is perhaps the most impressive wet weather ride I've ever seen in this sport...although Bayliss at Silverstone WSB 2002 was ridiculous.

Jumkie · Nov 21, 2015

feros said:
i completely understand your point and to some degree agree with it, but just remember even in 2009 he was still winning and getting podium with that bike, and i think i remeber hearing somewhere nicky hayden saying" i dont understand how casey can ride this bike so fast".

dont you think the fact that his results on honda and ducati being pretty much the same is actually a verdict for the fact that he is the kind of a rider who COMMANDS ( for the lack of a better word and my clumsy English) the bike and not rely on it, i bet if he was on any bike during 2006-2012 he would pretty much get the same result,maybe he wasnt relying to the bikes he was riding, which i dont think is the case with Rossi. really dont think that means a superior rider but he had some peculiar talent.

Your English is fantastic. Not just Nicky, but many riders voiced the same awestruck opinion. Here is what is absurd however of this notion J4rn0 has presented, the idea that Stoner was not handicapped by the Ducati. Do you or J4rn0 believe Stoner would have progressively decreased his win totals from 08 onward on a factory Honda or Yamaha? It's ridiculous to agree with this new angle by J4rn0 that the Ducati wasn't hindering Stoner. I'd argue it's because of the decline of the Ducati (and the Rossi/Dorna assault on Ducati's relationship with Bstone) that Stoner didn't go on contending for the championship. Like the two years at Honda, Stoner would have been a contender not just a race winner. J4rn0 has many absurd positions, one of his most amusing was the claim that Ducati had done nothing extraordinary for Rossi during his 2 years. This new claim that Ducati did not hamper Casey is just as laughable. And it's what I love about J4rn0.

AntG · Nov 21, 2015

According to Casey's autobiography the GP9 was the probably the best bike Ducati gave him, unfortunately he had his own issues that year which prevented him from putting in a solid championship challenge. He spent 4 or 5 races struggling with fatigue and missed another 3 altogether yet still finished within 90 points of Rossi.

birdman · Nov 21, 2015

J4rn0 said:
Jums, try reading before answering, for a change. It won't hurt you.
It is to Stoner's credit that he wasn't handicapped by the Ducati as all others were, of course -- but it is a fact that his results on the Honda in 2011 and 2012 were not better than his results on the Ducati in 2007 and 2008. That means that Ducati -- at least in 2007 and 2008 -- did have competitive potential (that he was the only one capable to exploit) and so it wasn't limiting him, in those years, any more than the Honda was limiting him in 2011 and 2012.

Ridiculous. Do you ever read quotes from Stoner? What he has to say about being a Ducati rider? Obviously not.

1. There was little to no development throughout the season. The bike he started on was essentially the bike he finished on. The Honda and Yamaha had continuous development. HANDICAP #1.

2. The Ducati had the potential to go fast. The problem was it required a VERY HIGH RISK riding style. High risk in that to go fast and get the tires up to temp the rider had to essentially risk crashing through every corner and just rely on talent to actually avoid the crash. Sounds like fun. Stoner must of loved all those front end crashes, you know it suited his style to crash a lot. HIGH RISK = handicap #2.

3. Stoner says the biggest difference he noticed on the Honda was how easy it was to set up compared to the Duc. Trying to find the sweet spot on the Ducati was a needle in a haystack to all the other Ducati riders and a source of great stress to Stoner. Basically there was no reliable base set up. Every new track was a new start, like a whole new R&D project of trying to set the pig up. Even Rossi felt compelled in 2010 to comment on Stoners habit of continuously going in and out of the pits and came up with the now infamous Stoner is lazy and doesn't try 100% theory. No consistent set up = HANDICAP #3.

4. Now this is biggest handicap. Change of rules. In 2007 Rossi summoned Ezzy to his motorhome to explain if he did not receive BS tires he was off to F1. This was still ok for Stoner up until about mid season 2008, when once again after 3 straight wins on the Duc Rossi summoned Ezzy to the motorhome to say he wasn't happy about this special front tire Ducati were getting. Rossi explains it would be better to run a spec front tire, namely the Yamaha spec front tire, to get ready for 2009 when they will all run on the Yamaha spec front tire. Now Stoner has a bunch of front end loses, basically all the way to the end of 2010. HANDICAP #4

When they then changed the rules yet again for minimum and weight and tires in 2012 (hi Capi)

I don't blame Stoner for giving the big FU to Ezzy and getting the hell out of there. The recurring pattern was evident.

I for one wish Stoner would've gone off the SBK, at least the old SBK before DORNA took over. I think the likes of Stoner, Spies, Crutchlow, Checa, Melandri etc etc would have made SBK a far greater spectacle than MotoVR. Alas...............

I wouldn't think you would fall into the same Ducati suited Stoner line that Talpa would claim. In reality the one thing that made Stoner the perfect rider for Ducati was that throughout his career he had generally competed against fast competition (Pedro, JLo and Simoncelli) on second rate machinery (KTM). So when he was handed a second rate Ducati it was less of a shock to him that it was to say Melandri or especially Rossi.

J4rn0 · Nov 21, 2015

feros said:
i completely understand your point and to some degree agree with it, but just remember even in 2009 he was still winning and getting podium with that bike, and i think i remeber hearing somewhere nicky hayden saying" i dont understand how casey can ride this bike so fast".

dont you think the fact that his results on honda and ducati being pretty much the same is actually a verdict for the fact that he is the kind of a rider who COMMANDS ( for the lack of a better word and my clumsy English) the bike and not rely on it, i bet if he was on any bike during 2006-2012 he would pretty much get the same result,maybe he wasnt relying to the bikes he was riding, which i dont think is the case with Rossi. really dont think that means a superior rider but he had some peculiar talent.

Of course I think Stoner is absolutely great. I am her since 2007 and since the beginning have had Casey Stoner in the list of my favorite riders of all time. He's one of the greatest and absolutely unique in the way he could ride the Ducati.

Gaz · Nov 21, 2015

Maybe it is just me I but didn't ready J4's comment as anything other than full of praise for the fact that Stoner did not allow the Ducati handicaps that affected the other riders, to affect him as he basically and simply just grabbed the bull by the horns and rung it's neck.

I read it and re-read it and see the comment as J4 praising Stoner for what he was able to do, given the known deficiences (and as such, the handicap) of the bike

May be me, and not putting words in J4's mouth ............... ah the 2 dimensional word and the way in which we interpret meaning is a wondrous thing

J4rn0 · Nov 21, 2015

birdman said:
Ridiculous. Do you ever read quotes from Stoner? What he has to say about being a Ducati rider? Obviously not.

1. There was little to no development throughout the season. The bike he started on was essentially the bike he finished on. The Honda and Yamaha had continuous development. HANDICAP #1.

2. The Ducati had the potential to go fast. The problem was it required a VERY HIGH RISK riding style. High risk in that to go fast and get the tires up to temp the rider had to essentially risk crashing through every corner and just rely on talent to actually avoid the crash. Sounds like fun. Stoner must of loved all those front end crashes, you know it suited his style to crash a lot. HIGH RISK = handicap #2.

3. Stoner says the biggest difference he noticed on the Honda was how easy it was to set up compared to the Duc. Trying to find the sweet spot on the Ducati was a needle in a haystack to all the other Ducati riders and a source of great stress to Stoner. Basically there was no reliable base set up. Every new track was a new start, like a whole new R&D project of trying to set the pig up. Even Rossi felt compelled in 2010 to comment on Stoners habit of continuously going in and out of the pits and came up with the now infamous Stoner is lazy and doesn't try 100% theory. No consistent set up = HANDICAP #3.

4. Now this is biggest handicap. Change of rules. In 2007 Rossi summoned Ezzy to his motorhome to explain if he did not receive BS tires he was off to F1. This was still ok for Stoner up until about mid season 2008, when once again after 3 straight wins on the Duc Rossi summoned Ezzy to the motorhome to say he wasn't happy about this special front tire Ducati were getting. Rossi explains it would be better to run a spec front tire, namely the Yamaha spec front tire, to get ready for 2009 when they will all run on the Yamaha spec front tire. Now Stoner has a bunch of front end loses, basically all the way to the end of 2010. HANDICAP #4

When they then changed the rules yet again for minimum and weight and tires in 2012 (hi Capi)
View attachment 11638

I don't blame Stoner for giving the big FU to Ezzy and getting the hell out of there. The recurring pattern was evident.

I for one wish Stoner would've gone off the SBK, at least the old SBK before DORNA took over. I think the likes of Stoner, Spies, Crutchlow, Checa, Melandri etc etc would have made SBK a far greater spectacle than MotoVR. Alas...............

I wouldn't think you would fall into the same Ducati suited Stoner line that Talpa would claim. In reality the one thing that made Stoner the perfect rider for Ducati was that throughout his career he had generally competed against fast competition (Pedro, JLo and Simoncelli) on second rate machinery (KTM). So when he was handed a second rate Ducati it was less of a shock to him that it was to say Melandri or especially Rossi.

Bird, I know all that. The fact remains that Stoner's best season was 2007, on a Ducati. In subsequent years winning on the Ducati became more and more difficult, even for him, as we know. For me the fact that he could be equally competitive on a Ducati (at least in 2007-8) as on a Honda remains amazing. By the way, Honda wasn't exactly dominating before he arrived there either... More than saying he was handicapped by any bike, I's say any bike shone in a terrific way with him on the saddle.

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VR Effect: Negative Repercussion for GP

J4rn0

paparazzo

AntG

Jumkie

Keshav

J4rn0

Jumkie

feros

J4rn0

AntG

michaelm

Arrabbiata1

AntG

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Jumkie

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birdman

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