Joined Aug 2007
11K Posts | 3K+
Pomona NY
Being constitutionally incapable of admitting you are wrong - is not the same thing as being right.
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Being constitutionally incapable of admitting you are wrong - is not the same thing as being right.
An interesting debate for me Kesh since I can only have an opinion regarding whether the arguments are logical or not having never seen the incident, which I hope never to see in the future.
I guess purely on logic there is a distinction between being down on the racing line and trying to save a lose on the racing line, with the distinction less in proportion to the impossibility of the save being attempted.
Arguing post hoc that a rider several years later with a different physique, a different riding style, a different talent level since he is already rated as at least top 5 talent in GP history which poor Marco never was, and on different tyres making saves previously considered impossible justifies a previous attempt at an impossible save would seem to be less rather than more logically rigorous than your argument however. The safety issue which the new construction tyre introduced in 2012 was supposed to address was cold tyre performance, and I don't think it is unreasonable to suspect that how Marco had ridden on cold tyres was part of this.
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Plenty of times one will read quotes along the lines of "I just let it go as I was surrounded by riders, crashed mid pack amongst traffic and luckily took no one else down, hope everybody else is okay" etc etc.
Having recently run someone over by hitting their head with my fork dropouts and picking bits of white arai out of my bike for ages, I just don't see how you can't relax and pull your head in a bit.
I guess when you have the blessing from the boss of motogp.
Having recently run someone over by hitting their head with my fork dropouts and picking bits of white arai out of my bike for ages, I just don't see how you can't relax and pull your head in a bit.
I guess when you have the blessing from the boss of motogp.
Joined Aug 2007
11K Posts | 3K+
Pomona NY
Not sure who has rated Sic as a top five rider. Nor can I imagine on what basis one would make that contention. I rate riders by results, the likes of which he had very little in MotoGp. To be sure, he had talent. Undoubtedly - he had potential; but we'll never get to find out if he was capable of reaching that potential. I will grant if we don't ignore his capacity for smashing into other riders in the 250 class, he did remarkably well given his size and weight disadvantage.
IMHO - he was hugely hyped before coming to the premiere class, because he was so flamboyant and because he was so close with Vale and people (most especially Italians) were hoping for a successor to the aging Rossi. I strongly believe that much of the high opinion of him after his passing is based on misplaced sentimentality. Personally I find it odd that there is a track named after him and not so much (to my knowledge) as a turn named after the terrifically talented and much more likable Dajiro Kato.
The issue of cold tires is interesting; but while Sic hadn't a great deal of experience with the tires used in MotoGp - he wasn't exactly an uninterested novice with no knowledge of idiosyncrasies of that tire; and most assuredly he had experience in the feeder classes - running on cold Dunlops; so (sorry if this is a bit pedantic) he was no more subject to the issues with that tire than any other rookie riding that year.
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My point was that the guy who made saves previously considered impossible several years later which MV seemed to be arguing justified Simoncelli's attempt was Marquez, who is a top 5 all time talent, not Sic who definitely wasn't. Without having seen the crash I can't say whether MM could have saved it, but from the reports I have seen it sounds like it might have been beyond even him as well.
I was remembering Marco nearly taking Stoner out when he had a massive moment making an exuberant move on cold tyres in the first corner of the race after Jerez 2011, concerning which Casey was not best pleased given it would have given him 2 successive dnfs not of his own devisement in what was shaping a tight title race with Lorenzo. I don't even know which lap he was on in the final incident.
Joined Aug 2007
11K Posts | 3K+
Pomona NY
Oh... I take your meaning. Misunderstood about top 5. I'd hazard to say Sic hadn't a prayer of making a save given his weight disadvantage - what with his mass and energy combo slamming downward; too much to ask. Marquez weighs so much less which allows him a degree of nimbleness that Sic could never achieve. Hence it's pointless to compare the two.
Joined Oct 2015
2K Posts | 827+
Texas
Being a little heavier can actually help gain traction because it's more force pushing down on the tire. That's why Pedrosa can sometimes struggle for grip because there's not enough weight on his tire(s). In some instances more weight could prevent or stop a slide.
And just as conversely, at times more weight can either cause or impact the slide negatively.
Circumstances at the time play a significant part (and there are a number of circumstances at play in any one incident)
Joined Aug 2007
11K Posts | 3K+
Pomona NY
There is such a thing as a tipping point; a point of diminishing returns. Everything in MotoGp mechanics is designed for a rider in a median range of weight and height. In Sic's situation - there were real limits to how much the mechanics could adjust the bike to suit him. Weight was undoubtedly an issue - but size was a problem as well. He was too large to properly tuck in; he was like one big human wind-sail, or like a large braking parachute. He took quite a bit of buffeting on the tiny MGP bikes which made it challenging for him to be really smooth, which is why the bike frequently seemed unsettled. It's why whenever I saw him riding slowly on pit lane - it brought to mind the image of a trained circus bear riding on a child's tricycle.
His weight would have been a good thing in terms of braking in a straight line; the downside of which he undoubtedly would wear out tires in less time than other riders.
In his first year Marquez was still a bit on the light size, but has really built up a lot of muscle and I'd bet even money - he's gained a few pounds which are probably to his advantage.
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Joined Apr 2015
6K Posts | 5K+
NJ
Haha, Sic a top 5 rider.
I find it hilarious how a guy who had a couple of decent results in GP was hyped as Jesus Christ Superstar.
How everyone forgets he was riding a factory bike in 2011. If you want to get a good idea for what his potential was, all you have to do is look at how Casey Stoner did on the same bike. That is not a simple gap, that's a chasm between the two. Honda had a lot invested in Marco Simoncelli, and don't forget he was supposed to receive a factory bike again from Honda for 2012 when he signed the deal in late September 2011. 2012 was either going to make or break Marco from a support perspective as I believe Honda would have cut him loose on the factory machinery for 2013 without results.
As Kesh said, the size was a problem no matter what. It's the same issue Loris Baz has unfortunately. It's a marvel Baz made it to GP with such a disadvantage relative to the rest of the grid. Simoncelli was charismatic and has skewed thinking of him and what he did on the track quite a bit these last 5 1/2 years. He was talented as are all of the riders at that level save for Karel Abraham.
But talented enough to go up to the pantheon level? Absolutely not. And no amount of wishful thinking can change this, just like it can't change the reality that Marco in spite of his talent was an extremely dangerous rider to be on track with.
I find it hilarious how a guy who had a couple of decent results in GP was hyped as Jesus Christ Superstar.
How everyone forgets he was riding a factory bike in 2011. If you want to get a good idea for what his potential was, all you have to do is look at how Casey Stoner did on the same bike. That is not a simple gap, that's a chasm between the two. Honda had a lot invested in Marco Simoncelli, and don't forget he was supposed to receive a factory bike again from Honda for 2012 when he signed the deal in late September 2011. 2012 was either going to make or break Marco from a support perspective as I believe Honda would have cut him loose on the factory machinery for 2013 without results.
As Kesh said, the size was a problem no matter what. It's the same issue Loris Baz has unfortunately. It's a marvel Baz made it to GP with such a disadvantage relative to the rest of the grid. Simoncelli was charismatic and has skewed thinking of him and what he did on the track quite a bit these last 5 1/2 years. He was talented as are all of the riders at that level save for Karel Abraham.
But talented enough to go up to the pantheon level? Absolutely not. And no amount of wishful thinking can change this, just like it can't change the reality that Marco in spite of his talent was an extremely dangerous rider to be on track with.
Joined Aug 2008
6K Posts | 748+
Thailand
He's was rejected by Honda for a place in the Aspar team based on their experience with Simoncelli.
Joined Oct 2015
2K Posts | 827+
Texas
MotoGP is rejecting a lot of talented riders because now they're only accepting midgets. I miss the 500cc era when the riders were the average sized men. They should revise the rules for a combined rider & bike weight limit and maybe increase the fuel limit for heavier riders.
I hate that production 1000cc bikes are following GP bikes and becoming tiny. The average sportbike enthusiast is NOT a midget so stop shrinking the damn bikes.
I hate that production 1000cc bikes are following GP bikes and becoming tiny. The average sportbike enthusiast is NOT a midget so stop shrinking the damn bikes.
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Joined Jun 2007
10K Posts | 1K+
Norah Head
Nope ....... nup ..... youre wrong. Nothing worse than seeing too big a folk on the wrong bike.
Get a fatboy.
besides ..... how many cows died so that guy can look like rossi.
David Jefferies looked like he should have been sharing a ring with Lennox Lewis, never stopped him winning on the circuits back in the day.
Joined Aug 2007
11K Posts | 3K+
Pomona NY
Talking about Barry Sheene. Wouldn't even mention Loris in the same sentence as those guys.
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