Valentino Rossi: 'I won’t race without Jerry.B'

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Austin @ Sep 17 2009, 03:57 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I won't say that JB has made an effort to tutor the crew around him. After all, with the rate of change of riders and mechanics, your teammate one year is a rival the next. No reason to give them too much advantage, even in the garage. But I'd imagine there has to be a lot to be learned just be working alongside JB. Hayden's crewchief was Pete Benson after he was one of the few remaining after the exodus. He was a pretty solid crewchief, although I don't think he had the same problem solving and critical thinking attributes that JB has. Clearly Rossi gives him tremendous feedback and would make any crewchief look unbelievable, but the amount of Sunday mornings where Rossi magically finds a setting to improve a half second is astounding. Not to take away from Rossi, but I have to think JB plays a major role in those small miracles.

Indeed. But IMO many of those "small miracles" have been miracles in smart tactics--which JB and VR have refined since 2003 in Honda, when they discovered their setup data were being passed to Gresini and Pons. JB's "miracle settings" found "at the last minute" date back from that time, and the purpose is to make sure that teammates and in-house competition with access to their data cannot know them until it's too late. During normal practice they refine setup pushing in only one quarter per lap, and put everything together only at the end...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (J4rn0 @ Sep 17 2009, 09:11 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Indeed. But IMO many of those "small miracles" have been miracles in smart tactics--which JB and VR have refined since 2003 in Honda, when they discovered their setup data were being passed to Gresini and Pons. JB's "miracle settings" found "at the last minute" date back from that time, and the purpose is to make sure that teammates and in-house competition with access to their data cannot know them until it's too late. During normal practice they refine setup pushing in only one quarter per lap, and put everything together only at the end...

I think you are way off here. Not that I'm against clever tactics but the competition is just too hard and practice time to short for anything of that going on.
You can read the section times out of the analysis charts and so can everyone else an hour or so after a practice and I strongly doubt you will find any significant variations in section times for Rossi that behave the way you suggest.
I think Austin is spot on here, they work their ... off during the night analysing the data. It is also very pronounced how VR/JB improve time in between sessions not inside them. When they have trouble you can often see a .5-1.0 sec improvement between each session until they get competitive.
This also indicate that they need the time to analyse the bike and track by reading all the telemetric data, so to understand what to change.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Sep 17 2009, 09:06 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I think you are way off here. Not that I'm against clever tactics but the competition is just too hard and practice time to short for anything of that going on.
You can read the section times out of the analysis charts and so can everyone else an hour or so after a practice and I strongly doubt you will find any significant variations in section times for Rossi that behave the way you suggest.
I think Austin is spot on here, they work their ... off during the night analysing the data. It is also very pronounced how VR/JB improve time in between sessions not inside them. When they have trouble you can often see a .5-1.0 sec improvement between each session until they get competitive.
This also indicate that they need the time to analyse the bike and track by reading all the telemetric data, so to understand what to change.

I really don't want to post this, no seriously as I don't want you thinking I have mellowed or been browbeaten into submission, or that I am tired and have given up debating you.

But, I agree with Austin and .................. (pffft) you.

I don't see any improvement as part of a wider 'game' or attempt to 'hide or psyche' out opponents as today the game is to close to make that risk and yes, I do put it down to sheer bloody minded hard work by all within the team.

Generally I suspect that a rider will not improve time dramatically from one session to the next as they are tuned to provide a certain effort each and every time they go on teh circuit (short of physical injury or illness restrictions).

But a rider can improve times based upon minor adjustments in settings or technique as indicated by telemetry (but again, riders of this level need very little if any technique changes) and this is where having a good dedicated team is essential to any racers success. Of course when that team has been together for a number of years and has within it a number of 'extremely well respected' spannermen, than you can bet that the effort of these guys is focused on the task.






Gaz

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Sep 16 2009, 02:38 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Well Duh! ........ Thats why he isn't knocking on your couch door Curve, thats why he wants to work with Stoner ( a guy who could probably even beat you and your couch and bong, with his hands tied, legs in plaster, eyes closed and vomit in his helmet .......


I really have a picture of you as "The Comic Book guy" from the simpsons curve

do you even make sence to yourself ....? Stoner a ....... .......J.B. would never work with a ... that needs 3 months off cause his ...... is sore.



p.s. NO one beats me on a bong you ....

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Sep 17 2009, 11:06 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I think you are way off here. Not that I'm against clever tactics but the competition is just too hard and practice time to short for anything of that going on.
You can read the section times out of the analysis charts and so can everyone else an hour or so after a practice and I strongly doubt you will find any significant variations in section times for Rossi that behave the way you suggest.
I think Austin is spot on here, they work their ... off during the night analysing the data. It is also very pronounced how VR/JB improve time in between sessions not inside them. When they have trouble you can often see a .5-1.0 sec improvement between each session until they get competitive.
This also indicate that they need the time to analyse the bike and track by reading all the telemetric data, so to understand what to change.

I'm sorry, I happen to know what happened in 2003. Surely I'm not the only one... Saying "this can't happen, or it wouldn't work" on the basis of speculation cannot change what one knows for sure...

Then, that the same thing may be happening again now, that is anybody's guess. My (educated) guess is yes

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (J4rn0 @ Sep 17 2009, 11:33 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I'm sorry, I happen to know what happened in 2003. Surely I'm not the only one... Saying "this can't happen, or it wouldn't work" on the basis of speculation cannot change what one knows for sure...

Then, that the same thing may be happening again now, that is anybody's guess. My (educated) guess is yes
I guess there might have been a time when they had room for such games, but I fail to see what supposedly facts of 2003 has to do with the situation in 2009.
Do you really suggest this has been going on all the time? In 2006 where they hardly could get the bike around the track on qualifiers?
But we actually don't need to speculate around this. Just go to the numbers and point out to us where Rossi are hiding his speed and I'll shut up.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Sep 17 2009, 11:19 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I really don't want to post this, no seriously as I don't want you thinking I have mellowed or been browbeaten into submission, or that I am tired and have given up debating you.

I hope not, that would have been just boring.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (J4rn0 @ Sep 17 2009, 02:33 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I'm sorry, I happen to know what happened in 2003. Surely I'm not the only one... Saying "this can't happen, or it wouldn't work" on the basis of speculation cannot change what one knows for sure...
Why all the mystery? I also "know" what happened in 03. Let me see, a sudden boost of performance on Sunday that wasn't there on Saturday. Uhmmmm. I wonder what happened, especially 'Saturday night'...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Sep 18 2009, 02:20 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Why all the mystery? I also "know" what happened in 03. Let me see, a sudden boost of performance on Sunday that wasn't there on Saturday. Uhmmmm. I wonder what happened, especially 'Saturday night'...

Wonder what you refer to.
Anyway, you would have to look for the same performance gain for Biaggi, Gibernau + +
After all, even if you so desperately try to give the impression that Rossi were the only one, you are not suggesting he actually were the only one with Saturday night specials? I mean, that WOULD have been a sensation.
BTW Wonder how Bridgestone smuggle those specials into Rossi's garage on Sunday morning now days.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RCV600RR @ Sep 16 2009, 06:19 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>To illustrate my point:

http://www.motorcyclenews.com/MCN/sport/sp...mp;R=EPI-118455

JB: "Valentino continues to amaze me"

From that same Article RCV:

...“Burgess believes the reigning world champion is riding better than ever in 2009”…

Rossi leading the way in BMW M Award:

http://www.motogp.com/en/news/2009/rossi+l...+in+bmw+m+award

Maybe Rossi won't work with any other chief mechanic because he is worried about the thought of not being number one and many people/media/whingers appointing his success towards the chief mechanic combination and not just himself.

Pull out while you're ahead not a bad way to go!

Brett, watch 'Faster'. Burgess and Davide Brivio comment extensively on Rossi's excellent ability to diagnose(and prioritize) a bike's problems.

In any case, Motorcycle racing is a team sport. The success of any racer is, to a large extent, attributable to the team that surrounds him.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RCV600RR @ Sep 27 2009, 07:03 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Brett, watch 'Faster'. Burgess and Davide Brivio comment extensively on Rossi's excellent ability to diagnose(and prioritize) a bike's problems.

In any case, Motorcycle racing is a team sport. The success of any racer is, to a large extent, attributable to the team that surrounds him.

Yeah I know what you're saying and I agree, Rossi must be very good if not the best at diagnosing problems and how to fix them, something that helps with the amount of experience he has too.

Thats why I've always loved motorcycle racing, because its less about the team than car racing is. MotoGP's dependance on the team is getting big though like you say and I hope it settles down. Maybe turning traction control off like Moto2? But then you'll have the big factories changing engine characterics like Honda was alwyas good at with the 2-strokes.

Motocross, Speedway and Supercross racing can get boring but the better riders come out on top with any team manager! I like MotoGP a lot more still!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Brett @ Sep 28 2009, 02:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Yeah I know what you're saying and I agree, Rossi must be very good if not the best at diagnosing problems and how to fix them, something that helps with the amount of experience he has too.

Thats why I've always loved motorcycle racing, because its less about the team than car racing is. MotoGP's dependance on the team is getting big though like you say and I hope it settles down. Maybe turning traction control off like Moto2? But then you'll have the big factories changing engine characterics like Honda was alwyas good at with the 2-strokes.

Motocross, Speedway and Supercross racing can get boring but the better riders come out on top with any team manager! I like MotoGP a lot more still!
MotoGP could easily bin TC, but then if WSBK has it, then it would reflect poorly on the 'prototype class'.

MotoGP and WSBK need to discuss cost-cutting measures together; a gentlemen's agreement if you like. If WSBK cuts or limits TC, then MotoGP will be similarly poised to do so.

It's similar to the control tyre with WSBK adopting the Pirelli control tyre, then MotoGP subsequently following suit.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RCV600RR @ Sep 28 2009, 12:12 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>MotoGP could easily bin TC, but then if WSBK has it, then it would reflect poorly on the 'prototype class'.

MotoGP and WSBK need to discuss cost-cutting measures together; a gentlemen's agreement if you like. If WSBK cuts or limits TC, then MotoGP will be similarly poised to do so.

It's similar to the control tyre with WSBK adopting the Pirelli control tyre, then MotoGP subsequently following suit.
That would be the ideal situation but I don't think that will ever happen. From my understanding, the Flaminis will anything in their power to upstage MotoGP. Something like this should happen, but to work it would have to be implemented by the FIM or a third party.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Austin @ Sep 28 2009, 05:39 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>That would be the ideal situation but I don't think that will ever happen. From my understanding, the Flaminis will anything in their power to upstage MotoGP. Something like this should happen, but to work it would have to be implemented by the FIM or a third party.
what you are trying to say IMO is that this agreement would have to be implemented by gentlemen, something that the flamminis are not and dorna is in very short supply of...

for the survival and continued development of bikesport in its entirety, the FIM might have to step in and police a not so gentle gentlemens agreement.

This is late but I was on holiday for ten days...

So, let me try to sum up:

What happened in 2003? In 2003 Rossi and Burgess developed the tactics of "not finding" the right setup until the end of the warmup, as a response to Honda regularly passing their complete setup data to Gresini and Puig.

Surely such a tactic is necessary only when the setup data are made available to the competing "teammates" (unless one wants to do generic sandbagging for the usual reasons; but doing sandbagging vs other teams is different from having to sandbag, and protect information, inside the same team). I doubt Rossi had any similar problem in Yamaha, at least until recently, so there was no reason for them to resort to this kind of tactics so far.

The whole point of my post was, if JB and VR were smart enough to do that in 2003, surely they have not become dumber since then. And certainly they want to work as little as possible for Lorenzo in the present situation. So...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (J4rn0 @ Sep 30 2009, 08:05 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>This is late but I was on holiday for ten days...

So, let me try to sum up:

What happened in 2003? In 2003 Rossi and Burgess developed the tactics of "not finding" the right setup until the end of the warmup, as a response to Honda regularly passing their complete setup data to Gresini and <span style="font-size:18pt;line-height:100%Puig.

Surely such a tactic is necessary only when the setup data are made available to the competing "teammates" (unless one wants to do generic sandbagging for the usual reasons; but doing sandbagging vs other teams is different from having to sandbag, and protect information, inside the same team). I doubt Rossi had any similar problem in Yamaha, at least until recently, so there was no reason for them to resort to this kind of tactics so far.

The whole point of my post was, if JB and VR were smart enough to do that in 2003, surely they have not become dumber since then. And certainly they want to work as little as possible for Lorenzo in the present situation. So...
puig was not there in 03.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (frosty58 @ Sep 30 2009, 08:25 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>puig was not there in 03.

Yeah, the Piug debuted in ’06!

I think Jarno means Pons.

I don't think they will be banning TC from MotoGP anytime soon. I reckon the 800s would probably end up being slower than SBKs due to lack of fuel and 200cc less displacement.

Here's an idea.

WSBK to 800cc fours vs 1000cc twins. Raise GP back to 990cc 24L.

Tada, MotoGP is special again. Riders are excited to climb to MotoGP even if they aren't on the best equipment. Moto2 = 150hp; WSBK = 180-200hp; MotoGP = 230hp+

Learning to tame the additional power is what makes changing bikes relevant to the public. It is something we experience when we go from a learners bike to a 600cc and from a 600cc to a 1000cc. Learning to tame more power (even if you can barely manage better lap times) is the part that makes racing meaningful.

I think it was really poor management by the FIM to let MotoGP and WSBK change displacement rules to within 10cc; especially for the same season. It was also a very poor idea to let Moto2 run a production 600cc engine (even though the class is going to be awesome).

Only the really avid fans have any idea what the differences are between the series.