Tomizawa passes away

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Arrab, if I understand your basic point, the issue is the failure to show the RED flag, and if I am correct this is a point with which I agree wholeheartedly.



You refer to BSB and their (often) speed in showing RED flags, look also at the WSBK from over night, another good example of when to RED flag.



In my experience a RED flag can be displayed for any variety of reasons, the most common being sadly a serious incident that results in debris or persons on track increasing danger to riders and/or themselves. This was such a case irrespective of what the efforts of the medical/marshall team at that corner at that time, the fact remains that this was a very serious incident.



For mine, no blame lay here with the attending marshalls for any aspect, and I see that none is really being sheeted there.



Again Arrab, as you point out, it is not uncommon for these type of incidents to occur with tragic consequences and all involved now and in the future need to learn from these so as to improve for future occurrences. It may well appear that at MGP level, the highest within our sport that the learning process has been slow or non-existent, but let us hope that this tragedy causes change for the better in whatever way possible.





As a senior official friend of mine once said, he would rather RED flag an event unnecessarily than to not RED flag at all and find out later that decision was wrong.





May all fallen riders RIP







Edit: Additional to Tomizawa and his family for whom my sympathies and thoughts go out, I also wish both Redding and DeAngelis all the best in their recovery from this incident and wish that they continue in the future with no ongoing effects caused by this tragedy.















Gaz
 
Arrabbiata1 said:
Weren't you watching on April 6th 2003? Over seven years later and race direction haven't heeded the lessons of that dreadful day. There were three main consequences of Suzuka: Firstly, the circuit was quite correctly dropped from the calender; secondly, Butler embarked on an over zealous witch-hunt, disqualifying riders and docking places for the slightest infraction seemingly to justify his existence and reassure that Race Control was actually in control; and thirdly HRC exerted their powerful influence within the MSMA to steer the sport towards this atrocious formula driven aboard the bandwagon of supposed safety.

'They made the track safer as a fast a possible to continue racing'!!!??? Why? that's the point Rog and I are making. This is so inconsistent. The red flag is regularly deployed in BSB and I applaud Stuart Higgs for that - the memory of Craig Jones accident at Brands Hatch is still very acute. Moto GP is the premier blue ribbon class, and yet it so frequently descends into farce. This accident was horrendous. Explain to me why the sight of a stricken rider motionless on a race circuit does not warrant an immediate red flag. The instruction could have been made and the flag deployed in a tenth of the time that it took the medics and marshals to have reached the track. They then could have treated Shoya where he lay.
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This is my point exactly.....
 
mylexicon said:
The red flag is not related to his medical condition, I was simply pointing out that we all agree about the need for a red flag.



The point was Tomizawa's vitals. Considering he died of heart failure from blunt trauma, it is highly likely that his vital signs were very poor. Yes, a red flag could have afforded the cornerworkers and medics the luxury of taking a look, but what they saw would have been no different. This doesn't let Butler off the hook by any stretch, but a red flag wouldn't have THE MEDICAL competence of the treatment. Obviously, running and dropping Tomizawa looks bad which deeply wounded the appearance of medical competence and of race direction.



We can say with a very high degree of certainty that Tomizawa's vitals were either nil or very poor. If that is the case, nothing matters but getting him to trauma care. You've either got to move Tomizawa flat out over the wall and then begin CPR while you wait for an ambulance, or you've got to perform CPR on the track while you wait for an ambulance. The best option is whatever is quickest. Doesn't matter how many times he is dropped or how insecure his airway may be. Running with a badly injured patient on a stretcher is actually part of first response however ugly it may be. Imo, the marshalls, cornerworkers, and medics are competent and blameless assuming they observed non-existent vitals before dropping him during the stretcher ride. Speed was absolutely critical regardless of how it looked. The pretty option (ambulance to Tomizawa) was not available b/c Butler was out for lunch, but I doubt it would have made a significant difference.
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Another good, very good post. I even tend to agree with BM today.



Redflag should have been out, beacuse there was an injured man in the track. But that had little or nothing to do with Tomi's treatment. Those that know a lot more about that than me seems to agree that this was the right action and by the description I tend to agree. The ambulance on track would have taken more time to get around rather than bringing Tomizawa to an ambulance behind the wall.



BTW. I'm quite certain that up here in North each and every flag post have the opportunity to red flag a race. Not that it happens very often but I believe that is SOP.
 
I'm not knocking the Marshall's etc they as most give there free time up to do an important job on weekends etc

there's more pics about now after seeing a few having a least six people on track going to the aid of Tomi + 2 bails on track as well

The RED FLAG should have been deployed even if it was to aid Tomi over the nearest wall.



you cant have that situation on any track let alone at the fastest part of that track.As said ^ if this was BSB It would have been red flagged even before us on tv got to see the reply on our screens



and yesterday in WSBK the red flag was very late the leaders were just about on the scene where Leon and Troy went down

but a least it was red flagged.



Motogp just let riders continue racing not just with Tomi laying in the fastest park of the track did they even consider fluid/oil being on the track



what would we be saying if another rider had hit the Marshall's / medics / bails / Tomi



MOTOGP Race Direction Failed yesterday.
<
Horribly
 
BarryMachine said:
Shut up Arab you and your fabrications of mishandling an injured rider are making me sick.



There is no compromise at such times, waiting for a red flag or whatever.

They could not wait for an ambulance to get closer ......... it was critical. ie. they had 3 minutes to get him on a machine ..... they grabbed him and ran!!



They, the marshals at the corner, saw the desperation of the situation, and acted immediately. Full kudos to them nothing more nothing less.
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An immediate Red flag, Then bring the machine to the casualty rather than the casualty to the machine. Quite simple really, that's how it happens on the highway. I really don't think this is the time or place for you to start picking fights mate. For god sake a man has lost his life !
 
hoppefuly they gonna cancel those corners and maybe change the track to make it slower or something, and hopefuly S Reading won't be affected by this cause he destroyed tomizawa at that speed, there was nothing he could do. and he is only a very young lad
 
Rossifan said:
hoppefuly they gonna cancel those corners and maybe change the track to make it slower or something, and hopefuly S Reading won't be affected by this cause he destroyed tomizawa at that speed, there was nothing he could do. and he is only a very young lad
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Yeah I'm wondering how both Redding and De Angelis will go after this accident.
 
chopperman said:
An immediate Red flag, Then bring the machine to the casualty rather than the casualty to the machine. Quite simple really, that's how it happens on the highway. I really don't think this is the time or place for you to start picking fights mate. For god sake a man has lost his life !
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True if you assume that bringing the ambulance onto the track is faster than taking Tomizawa over the wall. Regardless of which method was fastest, the track was hot and the marshals had no choice to make a b-line for the tire barriers. Imo, given the visual evidence we have, it is impossible to find the medics and marshals culpable for improper medical procedure. Perhaps they could practice their stretcher runs b/c it didn't look well rehearsed, but the decision-making was sound.



Unless we learn during an investigation that the medics made a mistake, I think the video makes them appear to be competent.
 
Rossifan said:
hoppefuly they gonna cancel those corners and maybe change the track to make it slower or something, and hopefuly S Reading won't be affected by this cause he destroyed tomizawa at that speed, there was nothing he could do. and he is only a very young lad
Click to expand...



Some may find it callous to argue this now, but I don't agree. Maybe do something about the artificial turf that Tomizawa's bike seemed to lose grip on (how is the series of fast left-handers done at Istanbul?). So much has been done in the name of safety; the tracks have come a long way and we are now at a point where fatalities are rare (this has just been a bad week for GP racing).



What would racing be without fast turns? Do we really want to go to Motegi 18 times every year? Strait, slow corner, strait, slow corner, strait, slow corner...very dull.
 
As far as whether or not a red flag should have been thrown, there is no debate. There was a motorcycle and a motionless rider lying on the track. That is 100 percent a red flag situation. That is the definition of a red flag situation. So Butler has some questions to answer.



Now, what part the marshals may have played in this incident is unknown. My understanding is that marshals are to stabilize riders to the best of their ability and to remove them from hazard. In this case, I think the marshals made the correct decision given the circumstances. Which, again, goes back to the question of why the red flag wasn't deployed.



We can call for Butler's head all we like, and I think understandably so, but the real sadness, as has been touched upon here, is why the same mistakes were made as when Kato was killed. Marshals do what they're instructed to do, clear debris and riders from harm. Something needs to change that allows marshals to have some input as to whether a rider can be cleared from the track before treated or if they require treatment on site. Each corner stand has communications with race direction, why can't marshals make a judgement on site? I understand I'm being a bit idealistic, but it seems that there is such a hesitance to throw the red flag for the sake of the show, why not give the people with the best understanding of the situation weigh in. In yesterday's case, I'm certain the marshals would have been begging for a red flag so the ambulance could reach the rider rather than them having to carry him.



Butler failed in not throwing the red flag, but I think his biggest failure is not making adequate changes after Kato's death. And he was reminded of these situation with Jones' death and Lenz's death, and it was still business as usual for RD.



Tomizawa's death is truly heart-breaking, he appeared to be the next great hope from Japan and quickly turned became my favorite in Moto2. It's been a very sad day-and-a-half trying to digest this, and only now can I bear to read through your posts. But as sad as Tomi's death is, we must use his death to analyze what mistakes were made from the top down and reassess procedure. Whether or not his injuries were so bad that he was doomed either way, a rethink of protocol is in order. And Butler needs to answer serious questions.



May you ride for eternity, Shoya san.
 
We prob wont know

but in defence of moving the rider did the Doctors (white shirts) see Tomi had severe injuries open head/chest trauma

and they had to get him trackside to the Ambulance/Trauma equipment asap



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Austin said:
As far as whether or not a red flag should have been thrown, there is no debate. There was a motorcycle and a motionless rider lying on the track. That is 100 percent a red flag situation. That is the definition of a red flag situation. So Butler has some questions to answer.



Now, what part the marshals may have played in this incident is unknown. My understanding is that marshals are to stabilize riders to the best of their ability and to remove them from hazard. In this case, I think the marshals made the correct decision given the circumstances. Which, again, goes back to the question of why the red flag wasn't deployed.



We can call for Butler's head all we like, and I think understandably so, but the real sadness, as has been touched upon here, is why the same mistakes were made as when Kato was killed. Marshals do what they're instructed to do, clear debris and riders from harm. Something needs to change that allows marshals to have some input as to whether a rider can be cleared from the track before treated or if they require treatment on site. Each corner stand has communications with race direction, why can't marshals make a judgement on site? I understand I'm being a bit idealistic, but it seems that there is such a hesitance to throw the red flag for the sake of the show, why not give the people with the best understanding of the situation weigh in. In yesterday's case, I'm certain the marshals would have been begging for a red flag so the ambulance could reach the rider rather than them having to carry him.



Butler failed in not throwing the red flag, but I think his biggest failure is not making adequate changes after Kato's death. And he was reminded of these situation with Jones' death and Lenz's death, and it was still business as usual for RD.



Tomizawa's death is truly heart-breaking, he appeared to be the next great hope from Japan and quickly turned became my favorite in Moto2. It's been a very sad day-and-a-half trying to digest this, and only now can I bear to read through your posts. But as sad as Tomi's death is, we must use his death to analyze what mistakes were made from the top down and reassess procedure. Whether or not his injuries were so bad that he was doomed either way, a rethink of protocol is in order. And Butler needs to answer serious questions.



May you ride for eternity, Shoya san.
Click to expand...





Good post. I think we are all in agreement about the lack of red flag, just like in 03. However just as it was then, the circumstances unfolded such that there was no consequence to the continuation of the race. It will be a shame if something has to to happen for people to learn (but that is usually the case). But I don't share the opinion that Paul Butler should lose his job, it seems that anybody in an official position is in full support of Butlers actions and the fact that things seemingly haven't changed since Kato suggests the culture within motogp reinforces this. I don't think it is really our place to demand changes to the system or removal of personel (after all we don't have all the knowhow and information), it is the riders who put themself in danger every weekend and if they feel uneasy with the situation i am confident they will discuss it using the appropriate channels.
 
Tom said:
Good post. I think we are all in agreement about the lack of red flag, just like in 03. However just as it was then, the circumstances unfolded such that there was no consequence to the continuation of the race. It will be a shame if something has to to happen for people to learn (but that is usually the case). But I don't share the opinion that Paul Butler should lose his job, it seems that anybody in an official position is in full support of Butlers actions and the fact that things seemingly haven't changed since Kato suggests the culture within motogp reinforces this. I don't think it is really our place to demand changes to the system or removal of personel (after all we don't have all the knowhow and information), it is the riders who put themself in danger every weekend and if they feel uneasy with the situation i am confident they will discuss it using the appropriate channels.
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Of course they support Butler b/c they are covering their own ...... Is it surprising that this no-flag came immediately after one of the worst red-flag calls this year? I don't know whether or not it was warranted, but the delay was very long, and the ruling about who was and who was not allowed to restart was a complete disaster. Imo, that was not Paul Butler's fault, but I think it's safe to say that the events at IMS affected Butler b/c he didn't flag the Misano race when a rider was lying incapacitated on the racing surface. There is no other reason for a red flag to exist. Badly injured rider who had been struck by two bikes at the fastest corner on the track was lying on the racing surface.



Does Butler need angels to come down from heaven to tell him to throw the red flag. It is absolutely unnerving that Butler could be so brain dead, and at the very least, it erodes the confidence of the riders, the medical staff, AND THE INSURANCE COMPANIES WHO UNDERWRITE THE RISK OF THESE EVENTS.



Butler should be packing his things right now.
 
mylexicon said:
Of course they support Butler b/c they are covering their own ......
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That has crossed my mind, but as i said if the riders or any officials behind the scenes feel mistakes have been made i believe they will address the issue and it can be avoided in future. We are talking about peoples lives here and i don't think anyone at Dorna, the FIM or in motogp is ruthless and un-caring enough to not be moved by this weekends events and knowingly overlook things that need to be changed.
 

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