The next step for Ducati is an alien

Iowegian · Jun 16, 2015

Jumkie said:
"Was there ever a bigger bust in grand prix motorcycle racing?"

I would answer: YES!. Ducati should have realized after two years of the "9 times World Champion" that their bike was ...., YET they made the epic blunder to replace Nicky Hayden (who matched the '9 times World Champion in pace and performance over those two years) with none other than Cal Crashmakazi. The guy who gave up day 1 of a two-year contract then proceeded in talking .... the entire rest of the year, dishonored his contract and ...... off. (Left Ducati to crash on a RCV, which 4 races ago was the best bike in the universe, now demoted to a pile of feces.)

This x100

Nicky has proven with good equipment he can be a solid contender. He may have hated the bike, but he never is one to bad mouth it.

How long is Cal's LCR contract? If he ..... this up, I don't know where else there is for him to go. He's burned every bridge he's crossed so far. Aprilia perhaps?

Willski · Jun 16, 2015

Iowegian said:
This x100

Nicky has proven with good equipment he can be a solid contender. He may have hated the bike, but he never is one to bad mouth it.

How long is Cal's LCR contract? If he ..... this up, I don't know where else there is for him to go. He's burned every bridge he's crossed so far. Aprilia perhaps?

Contract for just this year....

He would get a good WSBK ride and I think would do well in that series.

JPSLotus · Jun 16, 2015

Iowegian said:
This x100

Nicky has proven with good equipment he can be a solid contender. He may have hated the bike, but he never is one to bad mouth it.

How long is Cal's LCR contract? If he ..... this up, I don't know where else there is for him to go. He's burned every bridge he's crossed so far. Aprilia perhaps?

I think Aprilia is trying to improve...

HEISMAN · Jun 16, 2015

Keshav said:
Sure it's pertinent. You praise Rossi for his ability to persuade Ducati to make changes - but the changes he demanded were unproductive. Giving Rossi credit for any good changes that happened several seasons later
to the Ducati is like praising Plague Mary for limiting overpopulation in Europe in the dark ages.

Re: "evidence"... all I can say is, Puhhleeze! You're being insultingly disingenuous if you deny this. It was all over the moto-press how much pressure Rossi put on Ducati and he made many on-camera digs at Ducati's lack of progress. You want evidence? My name ain't Google. I'm not wasting my time looking up evidence of things that you know perfectly well are true.

It wasn't pertinent because my argument didn't compare Stoner and Rossi's results on the Ducati. You're the one whom brought it up since you felt like taking a pot shot. Plus he gave credit where credit was due when he said that Stoner was the only one who could ride the Ducati. That can't be considered moaning.

"Casey was the only rider that can be fast with the Ducati. All the other guys that try have destroyed not only their career but their mind, so congratulations to Casey."

Casey was the only rider...

See what I did there?

I'm giving credit because he helped influence the change nor did I say that they should thank him for the current design.

Finally, you've failed to bring any evidence of Rossi's disparaging remarks about the Ducati. You and I know, he was stating facts about his current situation, which hardly can be considered moaning, demanding, or threatening, so give me a break.

For example:

The modifications were a definite change for the better. "I think we improve some of our problems," Rossi said, "This is a small but clear step. We are still not competitive for the win, but we are more close.

https://motomatters.com/news/2011/08/18/ducati_building_aluminium_chassis_as_par.html

Click to expand...

We'll have to do a good job on the track in order to get the most out of the work done at the factory. It will be hard, and we know it might take some time before we can completely reach the potential of the whole package, but we're happy and motivated by the work we're doing."

https://motomatters.com/news/2011/06/20/ducati_to_bring_radically_revised_gp11_f.html

Click to expand...

It was very tough, very difficult two seasons," Rossi said. The most difficult part had been the lack of progress made, despite the many changes made to the Ducati. Rossi characterized the period as "especially very frustrating."

https://motomatters.com/news/2012/10/28/valentino_rossi_on_ducati_biggest_frustr.html

Click to expand...

I don't have enough feeling from the front for corner entry like I want.

https://motomatters.com/analysis/2011/08/08/the_trouble_with_the_ducati_desmosedici_.html

Click to expand...

The following quote is the only negative comment that I could find from Rossi.

"So when you say you have a problem, first the Ducati guys don’t trust you 100% and secondly they are quite angry because you say the bike has a problem."

Rossi: 'Ducati can't deal with criticism' | MCN

Click to expand...

If you go back and read some of Gigi's interviews, he clearly insinuates there being issues within Ducati.

“It’s human nature that people involved are not highly motivated after a few years with extremely discrete results. That’s part of the game. But I’ve also encountered people who want to put it behind and do everything as quickly as possible to get back to the top.”

By nature I have been never the type of person who looks for someone to blame. Instead, I have always tried to find solutions to the obvious problems; this brings more.”

Team Player | Gigi Dall'Igna Profile | Sport Rider

So tell me? What on God's green Earth did you want him to say so he wouldn't be all bitchy and whiny? Don't answer the question because I already know the answer. NOTHING

Jumkie · Jun 16, 2015

Heisman, very impressive post. I appreciate when people take the time to present a well reasoned and argued position. I may or may not agree with it but at very least it's not lazy.

I think you're right regarding your contention that there was impetus based on Rossi's experience at Bologna for Ducati to take radical steps. I don't necessarily believe Rossi had the answers, as he is a rider first, and he even famously said, "I'm not an engineer." But having had the highest profile rider on your bike and not winning meant they (Ducati ) had to shake things up. Prezi wanted to win the rigged game on Dorna's terms, impossible task. Gigi took the radical approach of using Dorna's rigged rules to free Ducati. Despite Dorna's 11th hour move of the goal post, the cat was out of the bag. Ducati at least for the moment is able to compete. Frankly I think Ducati made plenty of missteps, most detrimental was insisting they compete in a series that was decidedly favoring Japanese manufacturers. When Ducati continued in GP after the tire relationship they had with Bridgestone was dubiously taken away, I lost sympathy for their plight. That was the writing on the wall, yet they continued to accept playing Dorna ' s rigged game. Staying in GP when the engine limits were introduced where the nails in their coffin.

#22 · Jun 16, 2015

Jumkie said:
I also should mention, I agree with Heisman's general argument that Rossi's stint at Ducati spawned the impetus for changes, and eventual radical changes both in hardware and team realignment. After having 3 world champs in Stoner, Hayden, and Rossi, there was simply no doubt the problem was the Ducati and not the rider. That realization came reluctantly by way of Rossi's not winning on the machine. Again vindicating those of us who had been saying this for years with substantial and reasonable analysis (unlike the ........ that has been haphazardly thrown together recently to suddenly blame the RCV a turd as of 4 races ago).

Agreed, I honestly think Ducati, Rossi and a helluva lot more people thought he would do on the Ducati in 2011 what he did with the Yamaha in 2004. I remember seeing him ride it at Valencia for the first time and seeing his face when he hopped off it, and thought he looked extremely uncomfortable/disappointed at the time. After 2 yrs of nothing, Ducati finally had to admit their bike was the issue. How many WC's did it finally burn?!

Jumkie said:
"Was there ever a bigger bust in grand prix motorcycle racing?"

I would answer: YES!. Ducati should have realized after two years of the "9 times World Champion" that their bike was ...., YET they made the epic blunder to replace Nicky Hayden (who matched the '9 times World Champion in pace and performance over those two years) with none other than Cal Crashmakazi. The guy who gave up day 1 of a two-year contract then proceeded in talking .... the entire rest of the year, dishonored his contract and ...... off. (Left Ducati to crash on a RCV, which 4 races ago was the best bike in the universe, now demoted to a pile of feces.)

Yeah, Nicky and Cal's work wthic is entirely different. I wonder if Ducati regret letting him go? I wouldnt be surprised to see Hayden on a Pramac bike tbh.

JPSLotus said:
I think Aprilia is trying to improve...

They might need some crash testing...

J4rn0 · Jun 16, 2015

Jumkie said:
J4rno, Stoner 'left' Ducati, and laughed about it? Haha umh, except that Ducati blamed him for not winning consistently and were sure if they had a "better" rider, let's call them an "alien", surely the Ducati would regain it's domineering. Did u forget the 15 million they offered Lorenzo? What a slap to Stoner's face. Then in the greatest coup they signed Rossi for the GNP of a small country. The bike was not going to contend for a title but Stoner left Rossi a race winner and podium finishing bike (check the status of Stoner's last year buddy). HRC made room for Stoner not because they believed he was great (hell even Burgess and Rossi had assessed Stoner to be incompetent, and would go in to fix the Ducati in 80 secs; but because Suppo, knowing the deficiency of the Ducati, knew Stoner would be decent on the RCV. Les you forget the overwhelming prevailing sentiment that Rossi would take the marriage made in heaven and start immediately winning titles at Ducati, because of course, 'Rossi was infinitely superior to Stoner' (the wrong narrative developed by the same .... hacks developing ........ narratives now). The same hacks that developed that narrative are now actively developing the equally wrong and ........ narrative that suddenly the RCV is to blame for Marc's crashes.

I also should mention, I agree with Heisman's general argument that Rossi's stint at Ducati spawned the impetus for changes, and eventual radical changes both in hardware and team realignment. After having 3 world champs in Stoner, Hayden, and Rossi, there was simply no doubt the problem was the Ducati and not the rider. That realization came reluctantly by way of Rossi's not winning on the machine. Again vindicating those of us who had been saying this for years with substantial and reasonable analysis (unlike the ........ that has been haphazardly thrown together recently to suddenly blame the RCV a turd as of 4 races ago).

I don't care about word games, politics, marketing, and announcements, and finding faults at that level is too easy to be interesting.

Results should be the basis of any discussion. What I say (and always said) is that Stoner himself was on a declining performance trend on the Ducati, and he wouldn't have won the title in 2011 had he stayed with Borgo Panigale. Of course he was pissed with the Lorenzo story, but he was going to leave anyway because the lad likes to win and he knew he would never be champion again on that Ducati.

Stoner's 4 wins of 2010 would have become maybe 2 wins in 2011 and 1 or 0 wins in 2012, -- this is a sensible guess following the declining trend he showed on the Ducati in previous years.

Now we have a new mythology about a magically invincible Stoner on the Ducati, but that happened only in 2007, -- when circumstances changed his results changed accordingly. There are no gods in motorcycle racing: not Doohan, not Rossi, not Marquez, not Stoner. He remains the best Ducati rider in history, and will probably for a long time -- but even he couldn't work miracles.

michaelm · Jun 17, 2015

J4rn0 said:
I don't care about word games, politics, marketing, and announcements, and finding faults at that level is too easy to be interesting.

Results should be the basis of any discussion. What I say (and always said) is that Stoner himself was on a declining performance trend on the Ducati, and he wouldn't have won the title in 2011 had he stayed with Borgo Panigale. Of course he was pissed with the Lorenzo story, but he was going to leave anyway because the lad likes to win and he knew he would never be champion again on that Ducati.

Stoner's 4 wins of 2010 would have become maybe 2 wins in 2011 and 1 or 0 wins in 2012, -- this is a sensible guess following the declining trend he showed on the Ducati in previous years.

Now we have a new mythology about a magically invincible Stoner on the Ducati, but that happened only in 2007, -- when circumstances changed his results changed accordingly. There are no gods in motorcycle racing: not Doohan, not Rossi, not Marquez, not Stoner. He remains the best Ducati rider in history, and will probably for a long time -- but even he couldn't work miracles.

I don't see it as quite that simple, J4rn0, although doubtless with less insight than you into the inner workings of Ducati along with everyone else on here.

I think the 2009 bike was quite competitive, Stoner's health was the problem, as Stoner said himself at the time; there has perhaps been some revisionism including by him in later years. The 2010 bike was an unstable pig which could only win even in his hands with frequent Dnfs alternating with the wins as the price of riding it that fast, but that bike was designed IMO with a view to potential future riders, no fault of the bloke who ended up the future rider of course.

IMO if they had continued along the same lines as the 2009 bike in 2010 it might have been competitive, if only for Stoner, the latter of course being the problem. Whether this would have been possible with the way the tyres were heading is a different question.

Stoner is also an unusual bloke, if obviously flawed like all of us. I think he may well have stayed loyal to Ducati, which is what he says in his book and has said elsewhere, if they had stayed loyal to him; his problem was that he felt that they didn't stay loyal to him or support him when he was unwell in 2009, and went along with the accepted wisdom that he was bulaemic or broken by Valentino or whatever.

#22 · Jun 17, 2015

Didn't he change back to the 2009 front forks mid way through 2010? He was a bit like Lorenzo 2015 that year if I recall. Struggling and falling a lot in the first half, then after Aragon he found something he liked and both Ducati's performance improved.

I think he'd have won more than once or twice on the Duc in 2011 tbh, and he would certainly have gotten more podiums than Rossi did.

Keshav · Jun 17, 2015

Jumkie said:
J4rno, Stoner 'left' Ducati, and laughed about it? Haha umh, except that Ducati blamed him for not winning consistently and were sure if they had a "better" rider, let's call them an "alien", surely the Ducati would regain it's domineering. Did u forget the 15 million they offered Lorenzo? What a slap to Stoner's face. Then in the greatest coup they signed Rossi for the GNP of a small country. The bike was not going to contend for a title but Stoner left Rossi a race winner and podium finishing bike (check the status of Stoner's last year buddy). HRC made room for Stoner not because they believed he was great (hell even Burgess and Rossi had assessed Stoner to be incompetent, and would go in to fix the Ducati in 80 secs; but because Suppo, knowing the deficiency of the Ducati, knew Stoner would be decent on the RCV. Les you forget the overwhelming prevailing sentiment that Rossi would take the marriage made in heaven and start immediately winning titles at Ducati, because of course, 'Rossi was infinitely superior to Stoner' (the wrong narrative developed by the same .... hacks developing ........ narratives now). The same hacks that developed that narrative are now actively developing the equally wrong and ........ narrative that suddenly the RCV is to blame for Marc's crashes.

I also should mention, I agree with Heisman's general argument that Rossi's stint at Ducati spawned the impetus for changes, and eventual radical changes both in hardware and team realignment. After having 3 world champs in Stoner, Hayden, and Rossi, there was simply no doubt the problem was the Ducati and not the rider. That realization came reluctantly by way of Rossi's not winning on the machine. Again vindicating those of us who had been saying this for years with substantial and reasonable analysis (unlike the ........ that has been haphazardly thrown together recently to suddenly blame the RCV a turd as of 4 races ago).

Yes - Ducati blamed everyone for their failures - except themselves; to the point of forcing Melandri to go to a shrink; one of the most massive cases of denial in the history of .........

Jumkie · Jun 17, 2015

Keshav said:
Yes - Ducati blamed everyone for their failures - except themselves; to the point of forcing Melandri to go to a shrink; one of the most massive cases of denial in the history of .........

How ...... was that? Melandri, who had been a champ in 250s, then MotoGP runner up, sent to get his head examined because he couldn't wrap his head around the cottage cheese front end of the Ducati. Still makes me laugh.

#22, you asked, how many championships did it [Ducati] burn? That is a fantastic question and one I've pondered. Ducati isn't all to blame, as I think Dorna did more to put them on the back foot by taking away their hard earned package with Bridgestone. So I would ask, how many championships did Dorna burn for Ducati--had they continued to develop their bike along with Ducati?

J4rn0 · Jun 17, 2015

michaelm said:
I don't see it as quite that simple, J4rn0, although doubtless with less insight than you into the inner workings of Ducati along with everyone else on here.

I think the 2009 bike was quite competitive, Stoner's health was the problem, as Stoner said himself at the time; there has perhaps been some revisionism including by him in later years. The 2010 bike was an unstable pig which could only win even in his hands with frequent Dnfs alternating with the wins as the price of riding it that fast, but that bike was designed IMO with a view to potential future riders, no fault of the bloke who ended up the future rider of course.

IMO if they had continued along the same lines as the 2009 bike in 2010 it might have been competitive, if only for Stoner, the latter of course being the problem. Whether this would have been possible with the way the tyres were heading is a different question.

Stoner is also an unusual bloke, if obviously flawed like all of us. I think he may well have stayed loyal to Ducati, which is what he says in his book and has said elsewhere, if they had stayed loyal to him; his problem was that he felt that they didn't stay loyal to him or support him when he was unwell in 2009, and went along with the accepted wisdom that he was bulaemic or broken by Valentino or whatever.

Stoner is subject to stress, we know. Stress can be a cause of allergic symptoms as much as the allergene itself, and he was surely stressed in 2009. The Ducati was already basically a scrxxed project. Why?

One aspect that is often forgotten (but that was and is very present in the mind of people working at Borgo Panigale) is that the rule freezing the number of engines (and the engine themselves) was basically the final nail in the coffin of Preziosi's Ducati -- as it was the only bike using the engine as a stressed member.

After the single tire rule, the ability to change frame stiffness and weight distribution became mandatory to adjust to the new specs, and Ducati found themselves fuXXed.

They should have done what Dall'Igna did last year immediately, but went the wrong way (also the rules didn't help then). They wasted the Rossi years trying to work around the problem, when what was actually needed was a completely new chassis AND a smaller and lighter engine, to fit into the new frame in the proper way with a possibility to adjust its position properly.

This is a key to understand what really happened, and is consistently ignored by our forum gurus. There are others keys as well. Of course it's easy to tell now, it wasn't along the way.

Jumkie · Jun 17, 2015

J4rn0 said:
Stoner is subject to stress, we know. Stress can be a cause of allergic symptoms as much as the allergene itself, and he was surely stressed in 2009. The Ducati was already basically a scrxxed project. Why?

One aspect that is often forgotten (but that was and is very present in the mind of people working at Borgo Panigale) is that the rule freezing the number of engines (and the engine themselves) was basically the final nail in the coffin of Preziosi's Ducati -- as it was the only bike using the engine as a stressed member.

After the single tire rule, the ability to change frame stiffness and weight distribution became mandatory to adjust to the new specs, and Ducati found themselves fuXXed.

They should have done what Dall'Igna did last year immediately, but went the wrong way (also the rules didn't help then). They wasted the Rossi years trying to work around the problem, when what was actually needed was a completely new chassis AND a smaller and lighter engine, to fit into the new frame in the proper way with a possibility to adjust its position properly.

This is a key to understand what really happened, and is consistently ignored by our forum gurus. There are others keys as well. Of course it's easy to tell now, it wasn't along the way.

Are you high my friend? An aspect "forgotten and Ignored"? U have got to be kidding. This post is hardly a revelation, I've been saying it for years that Ducati were screwed when they got their hard earned development thwart by eliminating their collaboration with Bridgestone and then with Dorna's engine limit rule. In fact I said it this morning for .... sake. And it's not anything new, I've said this almost every time this subject has been discussed (often times with you!)

In fact J4rno, I specifically remember debating this with u because I blamed Rossi's & Honda influence in pressuring Dorna to eliminate Ducati working exclusively with Bridgestone which was at the heart of the single tire supplier debacle! And subsequently the same type of Dorna machinations that led to the engine limit rule.

J4rn0 · Jun 17, 2015

Jumkie said:
Are you high my friend? An aspect "forgotten and Ignored"? U have got to be kidding. This post is hardly a revelation, I've been saying it for years that Ducati were screwed when they got their hard earned development thwart by eliminating their collaboration with Bridgestone and then with Dorna's engine limit rule. In fact I said it this morning for .... sake. And it's not anything new, I've said this almost every time this subject has been discussed (often times with you!)

..............

Really?
Great, then I must have dreamed of reading all those flat comparisons of Rossi's 2011-12 poor performance on the Ducati to Stoner's excellent performance in 2007-08, -- which always assume they rode the same Ducatis in the same circumstances!

HEISMAN · Jun 17, 2015

Jumkie said:
Heisman, very impressive post. I appreciate when people take the time to present a well reasoned and argued position. I may or may not agree with it but at very least it's not lazy.

I think you're right regarding your contention that there was impetus based on Rossi's experience at Bologna for Ducati to take radical steps. I don't necessarily believe Rossi had the answers, as he is a rider first, and he even famously said, "I'm not an engineer." But having had the highest profile rider on your bike and not winning meant they (Ducati ) had to shake things up. Prezi wanted to win the rigged game on Dorna's terms, impossible task. Gigi took the radical approach of using Dorna's rigged rules to free Ducati. Despite Dorna's 11th hour move of the goal post, the cat was out of the bag. Ducati at least for the moment is able to compete. Frankly I think Ducati made plenty of missteps, most detrimental was insisting they compete in a series that was decidedly favoring Japanese manufacturers. When Ducati continued in GP after the tire relationship they had with Bridgestone was dubiously taken away, I lost sympathy for their plight. That was the writing on the wall, yet they continued to accept playing Dorna ' s rigged game. Staying in GP when the engine limits were introduced where the nails in their coffin.

Thanks Jum. As passionate as I am, I try to be objective and critical as possible in addition to giving credit when credit is due.

RE: to Ducati. Yeah, they basically threw the book at the bike and figured that another route had to be taken which has been elaborated by you and J4rno.

Ducati's problem then, imo, was their "Ferrari Syndrome" as I like to call it. They probably perceived themselves to be what Ferrari is to F1 in MotoGP. However, they haven't experienced the sustained success at the pinnacle of motorsport like Scuderia Ferrari. They didn't start out life as a race team as Ferrari and Honda have. MV Agusta, Gilera, and Moto Guzzi can have an argument for it based on their past accomplishments, but that was so long ago that it doesn't count anymore. However, I do wish Ducati the best in their pursuit of MotoGP success, especially now with Gigi there. I do miss Preziosi as well, I appreciated his out of box thinking even though it didn't work under Dorna rules.

Jumkie · Jun 17, 2015

They did ride the 'same' Ducati. The one that Stoner won three races on and podiumed the last race of the season is the one Stoner handed over the keys to Rossi, who then won jack .... with it. Not to mention, with the benefit of engineers and accountants ready to write checks and redesigns based on Rossi's behest. Oh but I remember, this was what u and I debated, you said Ducati didn't make radical changes or move heaven and earth for him. Except for this small fact that when Rossi left after 2 years, Ducati had a twin - spar chassis. Radical for Ducati?

J4rno, when was the single tire supplier and engine limits imposed, when Casey Stoner road the Ducati or Rossi?

J4rn0 · Jun 17, 2015

Jumkie said:
J4rno, when was the single tire supplier and engine limits imposed, when Casey Stoner road the Ducati or Rossi?

You mean when Stoner began losing the front more and more and was winning less and less until he collapsed under stress? Of course!
And when that became too bad, Stoner left and Rossi (for all the wrong reasons we know) stepped in. That's the whole point.

Jumkie · Jun 17, 2015

J4rn0 said:
You mean when Stoner began losing the front more and more and was winning less and less until he collapsed under stress? Of course!
And when that became too bad, Stoner left and Rossi (for all the wrong reasons we know) stepped in. That's the whole point.

J4rno, it seems u and are are advancing the same general point. I was calling u out that this point was not unique to the catalog of discussion here or "forgotten" as u described.

I'm in agreement the bike was crap in 2012 and had been made steadily worse since 07. It wasn't championship quality but it was at very least an odd win or their quality, which to me separated Stoner and Rossi, a fact that has not been generally accepted. The way this has been glossed over is to ignore the fact Casey won on it and to take the position the GP11-12 was impossible to ride. Let me simply ask you this question, had Rossi and Casey been teammates in 2011-12, how many races do u think Rossi would have won over Casey? And my second question. Does your answer to the first reveal who is the better talent?

J4rn0 · Jun 17, 2015

Jumkie said:
J4rno, it seems u and are are advancing the same general point. I was calling u out that this point was not unique to the catalog of discussion here or "forgotten" as u described.

I'm in agreement the bike was crap in 2012 and had been made steadily worse since 07. It wasn't championship quality but it was at very least an odd win or their quality, which to me separated Stoner and Rossi, a fact that has not been generally accepted. The way this has been glossed over is to ignore the fact Casey won on it and to take the position the GP11-12 was impossible to ride. Let me simply ask you this question, had Rossi and Casey been teammates in 2011-12, how many races do u think Rossi would have won over Casey? And my second question. Does your answer to the first reveal who is the better talent?

I said this in the first post of this series: Stoner has been the best Ducati rider in the MotoGP era, and will remain probably for a long time. Yes, I think he could still have have won maybe a couple of races even in 2011-12 (but at an even higher risk of crashes than in previous years). Everything indicates that he would have been faster than Rossi on the Gp11 and Gp12. But not faster than Pedrosa on a Honda or Lorenzo on a Yamaha, if not sporadically.

Does this make of him automatically a "more talented" rider than Rossi? Or than Lorenzo, for that matter (a wonderful rider who would have surely suffered that Ducati more than Valentino, given his riding style)? Not really.

We don't know how Stoner would have performed on a Yamaha M1, for instance, but (again considering riding styles) I think it's reasonable to doubt that he would have been faster than the current Yamaha riders on the M1 (a "corner speed" bike requiring a completely different style than the Honda or the Ducati).

Jumkie · Jun 17, 2015

I have read often this notion of machine characteristics suiting a rider. I think its ........ and it's never actually been proven. Stoner killed on a decent Ducati, killed on decent Honda, and would have just the same killed on decent Yamaha. Peeple have been claiming Marquez "style " was perfect for Honda UNTIL it's not. What happened to this notion? DEBUNKED!

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The next step for Ducati is an alien

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#22

J4rn0

michaelm

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HEISMAN

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