The next step for Ducati is an alien

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Duc600, the GP07 practically rode itself, and your take on another Aussie is equally insightful, Maladin 'only' had Hayden & Spies as competition (one on a Honda the other on a Suzuki, both of which later went on to be World Champs and GP race winners) and raced against contemporaries who also were successful in Wsbk and GP like Bostrom and Hopkins, and one could argue Mladin raced during the last competitive AMA series given multiple factory efforts; but other than that your argument is almost water tight.

Mladin chose not to compete extensively at the International level because he quickly figured out (during his short stint) that unless you're on a winning machine...well, you won't win. Mladin was a prick, and it seems he didn't want to circulate on .... packages. Given he wasn't Spanish, he wasn't going to be gifted the benefit of the doubt, and would have to labor to earn that factory seat, that is if you believe once Dorna took over GP that it was built to become a meritocracy. Which leads me to Stoner. I think you will find plenty of members here are well enough versed in 125/250/500s. Casey was picked up as was Pedrosa, because they were scouted on talent by Albert Puig, that's why they were numbered consecutively, #26, #27. Both showed that scouting was based on solid grounds as both had success in the lower classes. But they didn't compete on equal footing, as u put it, Stoner was "blessed" onto an inferior 250 while Pedrosa had the cream of the crop. And even then the championship was a duel. When they were promoted to GP, Stoner was a runner-up in what was a very competitive 250 field. Again Stoner was "blessed" onto a 2nd tier bike while Pedrosa went to the cream of the crop. Stoner still gave that a go, and if u look back to 06, you'll see Stoner was very fast with INFERIOR tires, as the tires Pedrosa got is well documented to have been superior. Then when Ducati looked for a rider in 07, they offered the job to 3 others before Stoner. He was "blessed" to be 4th in line. Ducati having settled for their fourth pick were delighted that they put a little known device that allowed them to remote control the bike (in the space where the extra fuel reservoir was attached).
 
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The carbon monocoque and other stressed carbon chassis components were probably burned in the bonfire of cost-cutting, which was negotiated amongst MSMA members. That's why Preziosi was so bent, and he refused to stay with Ducati, not even as the head of production development, where he could have built whatever he wanted. Honda and Suzuki probably lost narrow-angle V engines in the same meetings.

Rossi/Burgess went to Ducati because they had to build a twin-spar aluminum frame. Needless to say, it didn't work out.

Right and they converted to the aluminum frame after Rossi did a full season with the CF monocoque frame before conesting the 2012 season with an aluminum frame and 1000cc engine.

https://motomatters.com/news/2011/08/18/ducati_building_aluminium_chassis_as_par.html


Probably the main input the Rossi episode had with Ducati was the realisation they needed to change their technical infrastructure.

But like I said, it was the impetus

Um, Stoner and his team won championships for two different manufacturers as well, one a marque which has otherwise not won a championship, the other a traditional power house but a power house which had won only 1 of the last 7 championships, and none of the 4 previously contested under the then current 800 formula.

No doubt he isn't of Rossi's stature overall (it is currently looking like the same applies to him and Lorenzo), the numbers don't lie, but the argument that Rossi did better by failing at Ducati than Stoner did by winning there whilst not yours alone is still a strange one imo. I also don't think Eddie Lawson is held in much disregard for not being able to back up his Yamaha and Honda championships at Cagiva.

I never said that Rossi performed better at Ducati. Did I? My point was that he wasn't 'whining' about it and helped move Ducati forward.

RE: Lawson - He may not have won a championship with the Cagiva, but did get one race win.
 
Right and they converted to the aluminum frame after Rossi did a full season with the CF monocoque frame before conesting the 2012 season with an aluminum frame and 1000cc engine.

Contracts end when they end. Ducati doesn't get to ask Rossi to sign a 1-year deal with Yamaha. They either hire him when he's available or they don't.

Furthermore, the MSMA aren't going to hammer out an agreement for the last year of the 800s. What sense would that make? It was aluminum frames and 1000cc L-4 engines (or inline) in 2012. That's how "cost cutting" works.
 
Right and they converted to the aluminum frame after Rossi did a full season with the CF monocoque frame before conesting the 2012 season with an aluminum frame and 1000cc engine.

https://motomatters.com/news/2011/08/18/ducati_building_aluminium_chassis_as_par.html




But like I said, it was the impetus



I never said that Rossi performed better at Ducati. Did I? My point was that he wasn't 'whining' about it and helped move Ducati forward.

RE: Lawson - He may not have won a championship with the Cagiva, but did get one race win.

I am well aware Lawson won a race for Cagiva, I watched the race. My point is that he didn't win a championship, and that Ducati before VW/Audi anyway were closer to being Cagiva than they were to being Honda or Yamaha. Riders other than Stoner had equivalent success on Ducati 800s to Lawson on a Cagiva. Stoner certainly had the opportunity to back up for Honda, but concentrating on him not winning back to back at Ducati rather than on him remarkably managing to win a championship for them in the first place is ridiculous imo.

Lawson obviously rates ahead of Stoner btw, and those who rate him with Rossi have a case IMO.

I think Lex has always offered some of the best insights on this forum, but my memory of the transition from the CF Ducati differs. Rossi did spend the first part of 2011 trying to get the CF thing to work, and when they decided to go to a conventional chassis they had to subcontract out (?to Suter), one of the reasons they went CF in the first place as they had no expertise in aluminium chassis fabrication. In the end cost may have come into it as Lex said, but also probably the engine number limitations which mitigated against engine and chassis integration, and the lack of availability of a tyre suited to an unconventional chassis given the control tyre rule, as well as JB and Valentino being unable to get it to work leading to the strong implication that it was not fixable.
 
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I am well aware Lawson won a race for Cagiva, I watched the race. My point is that he didn't win a championship, and that Ducati before VW/Audi anyway were closer to being Cagiva than they were to being Honda or Yamaha. Riders other than Stoner had equivalent success on Ducati 800s to Lawson on a Cagiva. Stoner certainly had the opportunity to back up for Honda, but concentrating on him not winning back to back at Ducati rather than on him remarkably managing to win a championship for them in the first place is ridiculous imo.

Lawson obviously rates ahead of Stoner btw, and those who rate him with Rossi have a case IMO.

I think Lex has always offered some of the best insights on this forum, but my memory of the transition from the CF Ducati differs. Rossi did spend the first part of 2011 trying to get the CF thing to work, and when they decided to go to a conventional chassis they had to subcontract out (?to Suter), one of the reasons they went CF in the first place as they had no expertise in aluminium chassis fabrication. In the end cost may have come into it as Lex said, but also probably the engine number limitations which mitigated against engine and chassis integration, and the lack of availability of a tyre suited to an unconventional chassis given the control tyre rule, as well as JB and Valentino being unable to get it to work leading to the strong implication that it was not fixable.

I know what you meant, Lawson is a legend, and I'm a fan.

Debuting a more flexible carbon chassis at Estoril early in the 2011 season, Ducati Corse soon abandoned the GP11 for the GP11.1, which was basically the GP12 with the motor modified for the 800cc rules. Unable to make headway on the GP11.1, Ducati recently modified its “frameless chassis”, using an aluminum headstock/airbox at Aragon, with again less than inspiring results.

The team now hopes that moving to a fully-traditional frame (by FTR) will shed some insight onto the problems plaguing the Desmosedici’s front-end.
Valentino Rossi to Test New Aluminum Frame at Jerez

I agree. The frameless design doesn't lend the engine to be positioned as easily compared to a framed one

"It’s is a lot of work to modify the position of the engine but it is something that I think also Filippo (Preziosi) is working on. My position on the bike is not good, I don’t have the feeling on the front and I have a problem also to load the front under acceleration and unfortunately this problem also remain with the modifications so maybe we don’t modify the right things. I don’t know if the change needed is big or small, we need the right change," said Rossi, speaking to bikesportnews.com.

- See more at: Engine position change is next step for Rossi and the GP11.1 - Bikesport News
 
Again Stoner was "blessed" onto a 2nd tier bike while Pedrosa went to the cream of the crop. Stoner still gave that a go, and if u look back to 06, you'll see Stoner was very fast with INFERIOR tires, as the tires Pedrosa got is well documented to have been superior.

The most obvious example of this is Estoril 06 when Toni Elias got Pedrosa's unwanted Saturday Night Specials, and went on to win the race...something he never looked anywhere near doing again.
 
I am well aware Lawson won a race for Cagiva, I watched the race. My point is that he didn't win a championship, and that Ducati before VW/Audi anyway were closer to being Cagiva than they were to being Honda or Yamaha. Riders other than Stoner had equivalent success on Ducati 800s to Lawson on a Cagiva. Stoner certainly had the opportunity to back up for Honda, but concentrating on him not winning back to back at Ducati rather than on him remarkably managing to win a championship for them in the first place is ridiculous imo.

Lawson obviously rates ahead of Stoner btw, and those who rate him with Rossi have a case IMO.

I think Lex has always offered some of the best insights on this forum, but my memory of the transition from the CF Ducati differs. Rossi did spend the first part of 2011 trying to get the CF thing to work, and when they decided to go to a conventional chassis they had to subcontract out (?to Suter), one of the reasons they went CF in the first place as they had no expertise in aluminium chassis fabrication. In the end cost may have come into it as Lex said, but also probably the engine number limitations which mitigated against engine and chassis integration, and the lack of availability of a tyre suited to an unconventional chassis given the control tyre rule, as well as JB and Valentino being unable to get it to work leading to the strong implication that it was not fixable.

They used FTR, not Suter. Suter is rubbish.
 
They used FTR, not Suter. Suter is rubbish.
Sure. I couldn't remember who it was hence the question mark, and somebody correctly said FTR in the next post so I left it. Are they fabricating the current chassis themselves now with Audi/Gigi/etc on board?.
 
Whine? He finally spurred Ducati to begin changing the bike in order for it to be where it is now. Do you think if they would have stuck with the frameless design, they would be where they are now? Probably not

The FACT that Rossi and his TEAM were able to win championships with two different manufacturers is a testament not only to his riding ablilty, but also their INPUT means that Ducati finally had the impetus to change. Something SToner and his team were never able to do. So .... Rossi what a ..... punk

Yet when all is said and done, Rossi with all his know-how and Burgess on board never came close to Stoner's results on the Ducati. Nuff said.:)
 
Duc600, the GP07 practically rode itself, and your take on another Aussie is equally insightful, Maladin 'only' had Hayden & Spies as competition (one on a Honda the other on a Suzuki, both of which later went on to be World Champs and GP race winners) and raced against contemporaries who also were successful in Wsbk and GP like Bostrom and Hopkins, and one could argue Mladin raced during the last competitive AMA series given multiple factory efforts; but other than that your argument is almost water tight.

Mladin chose not to compete extensively at the International level because he quickly figured out (during his short stint) that unless you're on a winning machine...well, you won't win. Mladin was a prick, and it seems he didn't want to circulate on .... packages. Given he wasn't Spanish, he wasn't going to be gifted the benefit of the doubt, and would have to labor to earn that factory seat, that is if you believe once Dorna took over GP that it was built to become a meritocracy. Which leads me to Stoner. I think you will find plenty of members here are well enough versed in 125/250/500s. Casey was picked up as was Pedrosa, because they were scouted on talent by Albert Puig, that's why they were numbered consecutively, #26, #27. Both showed that scouting was based on solid grounds as both had success in the lower classes. But they didn't compete on equal footing, as u put it, Stoner was "blessed" onto an inferior 250 while Pedrosa had the cream of the crop. And even then the championship was a duel. When they were promoted to GP, Stoner was a runner-up in what was a very competitive 250 field. Again Stoner was "blessed" onto a 2nd tier bike while Pedrosa went to the cream of the crop. Stoner still gave that a go, and if u look back to 06, you'll see Stoner was very fast with INFERIOR tires, as the tires Pedrosa got is well documented to have been superior. Then when Ducati looked for a rider in 07, they offered the job to 3 others before Stoner. He was "blessed" to be 4th in line. Ducati having settled for their fourth pick were delighted that they put a little known device that allowed them to remote control the bike (in the space where the extra fuel reservoir was attached).

Ever since you started coming back regularly - I've been waiting for a post like this.
 
But like I said, it was the impetus

Impetus / Whining

I say potato you say po-tah-toe.

Rossi bitched and moaned and threatened and demanded - all the while - winning no races. All his brainstorming with Burgess amounted in the end, to nothing. True - Ducati's engineers were dug in with their in-bred design philosophy - but the great Rossi never managed to inspire any results. Then Gigi came along and a year later....
 
Yet when all is said and done, Rossi with all his know-how and Burgess on board never came close to Stoner's results on the Ducati. Nuff said.:)

Yet it's not pertinent to my point so who cares
 
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Impetus / Whining

I say potato you say po-tah-toe.

Rossi bitched and moaned and threatened and demanded - all the while - winning no races. All his brainstorming with Burgess amounted in the end, to nothing. True - Ducati's engineers were dug in with their in-bred design philosophy - but the great Rossi never managed to inspire any results. Then Gigi came along and a year later....


...did exactly what Rossi had asked for. :)

Comparing Stoner's dominance on the 2007 Ducati to Rossi's poor performance on the 2011-12 models is like comparing apples and potatoes.

Reminder: the trellis-frame Desmosedici didn't have any understeer! The problem was an intractable engine, which didn't seem to affect Stoner much. In other departments (power, Bridgestone tires) the Gp07 did have a visible advantage on the competition.

in 2010 Stoner left a Ducati that looked better from the outside because he could still be fast on it, but the bike as a racing tool was definitely over the hill, badly (or not) developed and penalized by new regulations imposing a limited number of engines -- meaning they could not develop a new chassis without completely redesigning the engine too. It was a dead end.

Rossi jumped on the Ducati at the worst possible time, for himself, the bike, and the development possibilities. Stoner wasn't winning that many races in 2010, 4 wins if I remember well, -- and his count was on a steady decline since 2007. Rossi (and Burgess) misjudged the situation grossly.

What Stoner could have done on the 2011 and 2012 Ducatis is a matter of speculation now, but one can be pretty sure that the decline would have continued; the very fact that he left Ducati speaks volumes on what he expected. He left that lemon to Rossi, and must have laughed his ... off in private!
 
Yet it's not pertinent to my point so who cares

Do you have evidence of this? If so can I see it?

Sure it's pertinent. You praise Rossi for his ability to persuade Ducati to make changes - but the changes he demanded were unproductive. Giving Rossi credit for any good changes that happened several seasons later
to the Ducati is like praising Plague Mary for limiting overpopulation in Europe in the dark ages.

Re: "evidence"... all I can say is, Puhhleeze! You're being insultingly disingenuous if you deny this. It was all over the moto-press how much pressure Rossi put on Ducati and he made many on-camera digs at Ducati's lack of progress. You want evidence? My name ain't Google. I'm not wasting my time looking up evidence of things that you know perfectly well are true.
 
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J4rno, Stoner 'left' Ducati, and laughed about it? Haha umh, except that Ducati blamed him for not winning consistently and were sure if they had a "better" rider, let's call them an "alien", surely the Ducati would regain it's domineering. Did u forget the 15 million they offered Lorenzo? What a slap to Stoner's face. Then in the greatest coup they signed Rossi for the GNP of a small country. The bike was not going to contend for a title but Stoner left Rossi a race winner and podium finishing bike (check the status of Stoner's last year buddy). HRC made room for Stoner not because they believed he was great (hell even Burgess and Rossi had assessed Stoner to be incompetent, and would go in to fix the Ducati in 80 secs; but because Suppo, knowing the deficiency of the Ducati, knew Stoner would be decent on the RCV. Les you forget the overwhelming prevailing sentiment that Rossi would take the marriage made in heaven and start immediately winning titles at Ducati, because of course, 'Rossi was infinitely superior to Stoner' (the wrong narrative developed by the same .... hacks developing ........ narratives now). The same hacks that developed that narrative are now actively developing the equally wrong and ........ narrative that suddenly the RCV is to blame for Marc's crashes.

I also should mention, I agree with Heisman's general argument that Rossi's stint at Ducati spawned the impetus for changes, and eventual radical changes both in hardware and team realignment. After having 3 world champs in Stoner, Hayden, and Rossi, there was simply no doubt the problem was the Ducati and not the rider. That realization came reluctantly by way of Rossi's not winning on the machine. Again vindicating those of us who had been saying this for years with substantial and reasonable analysis (unlike the ........ that has been haphazardly thrown together recently to suddenly blame the RCV a turd as of 4 races ago).
 
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lol, this is hilarious 8 years on and people still desperately cling to the idea that anyone could have ridden the GP07 to the title. How did Loris do? P7 wasn't it in the championship on a bike that could apparently ride itself to the title? Funnier was how in spite of the 2009 health issues, and the missed races, Casey still finished ahead of Nicky Hayden in the championship.

Was there ever a bigger bust in grand prix motorcycle racing than Rossi going to Ducati and then shitting the bed for two seasons and running back to Yamaha?
 
"Was there ever a bigger bust in grand prix motorcycle racing?"

I would answer: YES!. Ducati should have realized after two years of the "9 times World Champion" that their bike was ...., YET they made the epic blunder to replace Nicky Hayden (who matched the '9 times World Champion in pace and performance over those two years) with none other than Cal Crashmakazi. The guy who gave up day 1 of a two-year contract then proceeded in talking .... the entire rest of the year, dishonored his contract and ...... off. (Left Ducati to crash on a RCV, which 4 races ago was the best bike in the universe, now demoted to a pile of feces.)
 
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J4rno, Stoner 'left' Ducati, and laughed about it? Haha umh, except that Ducati blamed him for not winning consistently and were sure if they had a "better" rider, let's call them an "alien", surely the Ducati would regain it's domineering. Did u forget the 15 million they offered Lorenzo? What a slap to Stoner's face. Then in the greatest coup they signed Rossi for the GNP of a small country. The bike was not going to contend for a title but Stoner left Rossi a race winner and podium finishing bike (check the status of Stoner's last year buddy). HRC made room for Stoner not because they believed he was great (hell even Burgess and Rossi had assessed Stoner to be incompetent, and would go in to fix the Ducati in 80 secs; but because Suppo, knowing the deficiency of the Ducati, knew Stoner would be decent on the RCV. Les you forget the overwhelming prevailing sentiment that Rossi would take the marriage made in heaven and start immediately winning titles at Ducati, because of course, 'Rossi was infinitely superior to Stoner' (the wrong narrative developed by the same .... hacks developing ........ narratives now). The same hacks that developed that narrative are now actively developing the equally wrong and ........ narrative that suddenly the RCV is to blame for Marc's crashes.

I also should mention, I agree with Heisman's general argument that Rossi's stint at Ducati spawned the impetus for changes, and eventual radical changes both in hardware and team realignment. After having 3 world champs in Stoner, Hayden, and Rossi, there was simply no doubt the problem was the Ducati and not the rider. That realization came reluctantly by way of Rossi's not winning on the machine. Again vindicating those of us who had been saying this for years with substantial and reasonable analysis (unlike the ........ that has been haphazardly thrown together recently to suddenly blame the RCV a turd as of 4 races ago).
Isn't the bolded part a bit done to death, somewhat like the "97% of climatologists agree that AGW exists", ie over hyped and not really true as often quoted. Burgess was talking about the satellite (Pramac?) bikes of the time, which were wobbling round at the back of the field as though the front wheels were loose, not the factory bikes of Stoner & Hayden.
 
"Was there ever a bigger bust in grand prix motorcycle racing?"

I would answer: YES!. Ducati should have realized after two years of the "9 times World Champion" that their bike was ...., YET they made the epic blunder to replace Nicky Hayden (who matched the '9 times World Champion in pace and performance over those two years) with none other than Cal Crashmakazi. The guy who gave up day 1 of a two-year contract then proceeded in talking .... the entire rest of the year, dishonored his contract and ...... off. (Left Ducati to crash on a RCV, which 4 races ago was the best bike in the universe, now demoted to a pile of feces.)

Hahaha I love it. Oh dear hahaha. Super stuff
 

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