THE CASE FOR MARQUEZ

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Harryjones05 said:
I just twigged this is all about Stoner after Talpa said!! Shame Stoner was such a little ..... because no doubt the greatest ever on 2 wheels talent wise in my opinion, but didn't have the head for it which is a shame!!
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He was a little ..... I gather for being annoyed by an aggressive and uncontrolled move which would have taken him out at high speed if he had not rapidly deviated from his perfect racing line to the other side of the track, in the process of which your deity maintained his position in the race by going off the track, and by a second move which was really stupid and completely unfeasible as well as both aggressive and uncontrolled which did succeed in taking him out of a race at a time he was leading the championship and Rossi was riding a Ducati. As I recall "that's racing" was the much acclaimed response to the first incident, and the second was justified because Valentino was just trying to win the race.

Now Valentino and his fans are whining mightily about controlled and legal racing manoeuvres where the only fault which can be attributed to MM concerns his supposed motives, particularly so at PI? Talpa is completely correct that the hypocrisy is immense.

Btw, a second circumstance would have averted the current controversy, that being if Valentino was fast enough to get in front of Jorge early in either of the last 2 races and stay there.
 
JPSLotus said:
Yes it is a shame.

But you know what is interesting about Nicky, his career arc in MotoGP pretty much matches the career arc of every other big name who hung around for a long time. They eventually lose their factory ride, and then wind up on a satellite bike, hoping to hang around for awhile.

Rossi on the other hand got bailed out of what should have been a move from the Ducati to a midfielder or backmarker.

In recent history, how many guys at the age of 33/34 were given one of the four best bikes on the grid to compete with? Biaggi is the only one that comes to mind off the top of my head when he got the Repsol Honda deal in 2004, and he found himself out of MotoGP at the age of 34.

Let's be honest, VR is only still in MotoGP because he means a lot of money from ratings, to sponsors, to sales. Was he the best choice for that 2nd M1? Only if you factor in the other stuff. Without it, there's hardly a compelling reason to see VR on a factory Yamaha at 34 and older.
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Because Ben Spies was ....... useless and even my ....... cat was a worthy replacement!!:D
 
michaelm said:
He was a little ..... I gather for being annoyed by an aggressive and uncontrolled move which would have taken him out at high speed if he had not rapidly deviated from his perfect racing line to the other side of the track, in the process of which your deity maintained his position in the race by going off the track, and by a second move which was really stupid and completely unfeasible as well as both aggressive and uncontrolled which did succeed in taking him out of a race at a time he was leading the championship and Rossi was riding a Ducati. As I recall "that's racing" was the much acclaimed response to the first incident, and the second was justified because Valentino was just trying to win the race.

Now Valentino and his fans are whining mightily about controlled and legal racing manoeuvres where the only fault which can be attributed to MM concerns his supposed motives, particularly so at PI? Talpa is completely correct that the hypocrisy is immense.

Btw, a second circumstance would have averted the current controversy, that being if Valentino was fast enough to get in front of Jorge early in either of the last 2 races and stay there.
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That last bit is a good point.

Valentino simply has been too slow to be able to get himself into P2 the last few races. It's not as if the bike itself lacks the necessary speed to contend for P1 or P2, it's the rider who lacks the necessary speed.
 
Harryjones05 said:
Because Ben Spies was ....... useless and even my ....... cat was a worthy replacement!!:D
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I disagree about Ben Spies, a rider whom I admired greatly as a super bike rider for whom GP racing didn't work out for various reasons, although he still won more races than Colin Edwards, and is the only factory rider other than Rossi or Jorge to win a race in more than a decade,

Disagree with Jumkie about Valentino getting the Yamaha ride back though and always have. The Ducati was obviously a complete pig, which is why Talpa should be embarassed to mention Stoner's name in any context involving Rossi following the latter's Ducati adventure, and Valentino was vastly better than any other contenders for the ride at the time, and particularly Pol Espargaro, as this year demonstrates. I am not sure Iannone or Vinales, the best 2 non-real factory bike riders now imo, would get all that close to his current performance over a full season now either
 
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Harryjones05 said:
The rules are so obviously not equipped for this scenario because no .... has ever had the audacity to even try it before!!!
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Very true that the rules do not cover it but how could you write such a rule?

Whilst the current debacle refers to riders allegedly 'impacting the championship by riding outside of their usual parameters', I asked elsewhere at what point could such a rule impact.

Take this year for example.

At Qatar Miller crashed and impacted other riders races possibly costing them points that may be relevant to their future in the championship. Should he now be claimed to have impacted the championship.

Alternately, same guy at Donington. Riding quite well, takes out his team-mate thus costing Crutchlow valuable championship points which may impact his finishing position.

The point I am making is that points lost at the season start are potentially just as critical as points lost at the end, and it is just as important for a rider battling for 8th as it is for 1st (admittedly, 1st is higher profile)

Whilst it is an admirable consideration, personally short of gridding riders up in championship positions and advising that passing is only allowed under specific condition, no rule is fully enforceable

As for not having seen it done before - research Hans Spaan for example. Alternately look at the history of years past with the Italian/Spanish 'mafia' where riders worked together based on nationality to disrupt other riders.

This alleged behaviour is not unique to international, national or club level
 
JPSLotus said:
Yes it is a shame.
Let's be honest, VR is only still in MotoGP because he means a lot of money from ratings, to sponsors, to sales. Was he the best choice for that 2nd M1? Only if you factor in the other stuff. Without it, there's hardly a compelling reason to see VR on a factory Yamaha at 34 and older.
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Absolute bullocks. Go watch PI again, the guy rode like a 24 year old and risked it all against guys 10 years younger despite a bike down 15kph+ on the straight against the Duc and the Honda. He's won 4 races this year, should have been 5 counting the cluster***k that was Misano, and he's schooled 22 year old Marquez in put him in his back pocket this year. Now if you wanna discuss someone who had zero business on any factory machine, let's discuss that hayseed Nicky...
 
Talpa said:
The escalation in hatred towards Rossi after Sepang is understandable-particularly with the existing embedded views some have on him, and the defense of him by his fan base is also borderline insanity also. But events like this from riders with as much at stake as Rossi do not come without provocation and what I'm hoping is the continued investigation will reveal the facts about Phillip Island and Sepang-note I used the word 'hoping'.

For me there is no precedent in this sport ever I believe, for the sheer volume of comment and interest the Sepang Round has created, Kropo even shut down his comments section. Personally I think both sides have valid arguments with what transpired, what is for certain for me is the facts of the telemetry data from Marc's bike at PI and Sepang will potentially make one side of the argument look hopelessly silly. What many are failing to address is that is 2011 a very hard charging rider was killed at this very event, from what I saw-particularly from Marc Marquez (Murder Marc;)) in those early laps we are very lucky to have not witnessed a much worse outcome.

Rossi stand over was not right-possibly justified but not right, however it was not dangerous at all #lookatmewhenimtalkingtoyouson, and Marcs crash was actually quite silly as the video evidence suggests he caused his own demise by head butting Rossi's leg. Using the 'dangerous' argument for the 'actual' incident whilst not considering the previous four laps worth of insanity displays either an overly emotional response or a serious amount of bias-or both, particularly the last chop pass from Marc-an impossible move which looked strikingly similar to the Argentinian event only reversed and on purpose (Marc is known for emulating Rossi). The incident would actually not have even been able to take place if Marc wasn't running so wide because of the previous bone headed move-lap 7-third place-losing touch with the leaders.

And from what I'm reading here and elsewhere, the sport is now considered to be in a far worse state because of it. Somehow though I don't think it will stop any current fan and possibly a few million more now watching every minute of Valencia next weekend-worse state for motogp? Possibly morally-but certainly not financially. Rabid fans indeed
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Talps, great post mate, seriously

While I would love to find something to disagree or argue with (for old times sake), we are on relatively the same page ...... well put.

But let me ask, what if there is no evidence and everything is gut feel, what then (to early to call but it is possible as telemetry may explain that which has been alleged)
 
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paparazzo said:
Absolute bullocks. Go watch PI again, the guy rode like a 24 year old and risked it all against guys 10 years younger despite a bike down 15kph+ on the straight against the Duc and the Honda. He's won 4 races this year, should have been 5 counting the cluster***k that was Misano, and he's schooled 22 year old Marquez in put him in his back pocket this year. Now if you wanna discuss someone who had zero business on any factory machine, let's discuss that hayseed Nicky...
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You underestimate how good the RCV and M1 are relative to all the other bikes on the grid.

MM would also be leading the championship if he converts all of those DNF's into finishes. The first 5 all could have been prevented.

I could say MM schooled VR the last 2 years...and be quite correct, because guess what? He did.
 
Hey Talps,
In your Jumkie-esque diatribe, you said - with considerable certainty - that MM binned it due to his headbutt on Rossi's knee.
Care to explain the mechanism of that one? What have you seen that no one else has? You and MotoVD been PMIng each other the telemetry?
 
Dr No said:
Hey Talps,
In your Jumkie-esque diatribe, you said - with considerable certainty - that MM binned it due to his headbutt on Rossi's knee.
Care to explain the mechanism of that one? What have you seen that no one else has? You and MotoVD been PMIng each other the telemetry?
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The binning occurred after the headbutt, figure it out genius, how do you suppose he went down, invisible fireballs from VR's ...? Or are you stupid enough to still believe Rossi Bruce Lee-ed his .......
 
Talpa said:
The binning occurred after the headbutt, figure it out genius, how do you suppose he went down, invisible fireballs from VR's ...? Or are you stupid enough to still believe Rossi Bruce Lee-ed his .......
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Haha, you are one stupid .....
 
Gaz said:
Talps, great post mate, seriously

While I would love to find something to disagree or argue with (for old times sake), we are on relatively the same page ...... well put.

But let me ask, what if there is no evidence and everything is gut feel, what then (to early to call but it is possible as telemetry may explain that which has been alleged)
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As I said mate, if the data does provide conclusive evidence- whoever is on the receiving end of bad news is going to look very silly. If not then everyone will continue to debate this for a very, very long time-if Jorge wins the title he will have won it with a asterisk-which is ...... because he has shown on track that he deserves it-off track however, particularly at Sepang he looked like a right goose-the thumbs down on the podium when Rossi got his trophy was a really really silly thing to do in light of the situation, and the presser afterwards was a PR abomination which even eclipses some of Casey's efforts ;)

If Rossi somehow wins it, an equally large asterisk will befall the result as well which is ...... as he has had an otherwise great season too.

Marc, Rossi and Jorge have all come out of this looking like right twats, and I don't think you can attribute the blame to any particular individual, its built itself up into an epic clusterfuck which probably started way back in 2013.

But like I said, it won't stop the ratings from skyrocketing, and the only people that really matter will be very happy indeed.
 
Talps, is it a full moon ............. we seem to be agreeing :)





Without wanting to start other wars here but out of all this, I suspect that Pedrosa will pick up support as many people will go '........, ........, ........, hey Dani good to see you fit and smiling man'
 
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