THE CASE FOR MARQUEZ

Harryjones05 · Oct 31, 2015

Jumkie said:
Mike, I do believe Marquez was annoying with Rossi's accusations. This is why I believe he was utterly motivation to BEAT Rossi. He couldn't stand Rossi being ahead of him for one split second. Guess who else couldn't stand for Marquez being ahead for one split second?

The pivotal difference is in wanting to BEAT the other verses TOYING with him. The perception that has defined how this is believed is entirely based on Rossi's accusations. Ask anyone if after they viewed the Australian race if they perceived Marquez toying with Rossi? Have you come across one single person that has? If so please ask that person to also provide me with the lotto numbers. I'll assume your answer is NO. So what changed? The overtaking was exactly the same as PI by all involved. So what changed?

Answer : Rossi's accusations. That's the sole basis to find "fault" in Marc's overtaking, fault IN CLEAN pass. The perversion being that this is suspect and proof of guilt.

When I watched P.I I thought wow what a race, BUT I did right at the time think .... Iannone went by Marquez easily there(left hander before lukey heights I think) and also Marquez's last lap definitely made me think what the .... is this?! But watching I don't think anyone could have known he was sandbagging but if Rossi and Iannone are convinced, it's good enough for me! What I don't need convincing of is the 1.1 second faster than Lorenzo last lap. It's ridiculous and NOT in any way a miracle lap..... Even Lorenzo knows what's gone on and the little sly Spaniard is rubbing his hands together ready to .... Marquez off next weekend!!!

Keshav · Oct 31, 2015

michaelm said:
Motegi 2010 was fairly similar, and it would seem was similarly mainly motivated by Rossi wishing to prove a point, to Jorge. Jorge who had a larger championship lead backed off. He still could have lost mathematically though, and could have crashed and broken his leg next week as Mick Doohan actually did in 1992. I had no objection to Rossi racing him, btw.

What I thought watching the race live was that MM was racing cleanly, and it did not occur to me that it was illegitimate for him to race Rossi. I hesitate to disagree with Jumkie, but am willing to contemplate the possibility that MM was doing nothing else other than screwing with Rossi after being annoyed by Rossi's press conference remarks, and could have taken off. It is a fairly bold assumption that he faked going wide when Lorenzo passed him, and similarly that he was necessarily faster than Pedrosa or Lorenzo.

Watching the whole PI race last night the guy who really screwed up both Rossi and Lorenzo was Iannone, who certainly seemed, like me, to be unaware of Michael Laverty's unwritten law. He very definitely prevented Jorge's ideal race strategy of getting away at the front early, and may have contributed to Jorge possibly wearing out his tyres which might explain his slow last lap, with no complaint at all from Jorge afaik. MM fell while well in the lead at PI last year pushing hard all race as Rossi and his fans apparently considered him to be obliged to do again, and had similarly fallen in 5 races this year. On the lap when Rossi initially passed him this year MM nearly lost the bike twice, including a near tankslapper on the straight while not in company. It is also hardly untoward for MM to pull out a banzai lap, he does it most weeks in qualifying, and if he has any bike issues reserving such a lap for the last lap would seem tactically sound.

Someone raised a rather salient if mischievous point on Crashnet of all places. Rossi's record for correctly assessing how hard his rivals are trying isn't stellar. The last rider he claimed wasn't trying hard enough was Casey Stoner on the 2010 Ducati.

I suppose I'll have to watch the Motegi race again. I don't recall Rossi having been so egregiously out to screw with Lorenzo.

I don't know that MM having a tank slapper earlier is an indication that he couldn't get past Rossi much later in the race when the tank was emptier.

I know it's been said that past races cannot be said to be incontrovertible evidence of a rider's intent in later races - but having seen MM repeat the Rossi move in the corkscrew at Laguna and other similar moves, there has been, one would reasonably concur, a pattern of MM showing up the old man.

Reasonable minds will differ. Not being a big fan of either racer, I can honestly say I feel reasonably objective and unbiased about my conclusions regarding MM's behavior on track.

Gaz · Oct 31, 2015

Harryjones05 said:
When I watched P.I I thought wow what a race, BUT I did right at the time think .... Iannone went by Marquez easily there(left hander before lukey heights I think) and also Marquez's last lap definitely made me think what the .... is this?! But watching I don't think anyone could have known he was sandbagging but if Rossi and Iannone are convinced, it's good enough for me! What I don't need convincing of is the 1.1 second faster than Lorenzo last lap. It's ridiculous and NOT in any way a miracle lap..... Even Lorenzo knows what's gone on and the little sly Spaniard is rubbing his hands together ready to .... Marquez off next weekend!!!

Do you mean the left hander at Lukey Heights?

The Left at the top of the rise is Lukey Heights, the corner after is MG (often called Lukey Heights but the top of the hill is the true Lukey) and the corner before Lukey is the terrifying Hayshed (if you get the chance ........... do it, have a ride day there).

As for 1.1, it was nearer .8 when you look at JL's last lap as well (refer previous post where JL's last lap was .3+ shy of his previous lap) and it is not unheard of that some riders are capable of blinding last laps in an all out battle (or when they get clear)

Whilst some would say that Ianonne and Rossi are best placed and thus believe them, others may say that each had a vested interest in saying what they have as well and so will allow the belief to slide.

Again, and has been said many times, at no point immediately after the PI race was there any conjecture from Rossi, Yamaha, Ducati or Ianonne as to any of MM's actions, and in fact it was Ianonne that received the initial abuse from 'Fans Yellow'

Harryjones05 · Oct 31, 2015

Gaz said:
Do you mean the left hander at Lukey Heights?

The Left at the top of the rise is Lukey Heights, the corner after is MG (often called Lukey Heights but the top of the hill is the true Lukey) and the corner before Lukey is the terrifying Hayshed (if you get the chance ........... do it, have a ride day there).

As for 1.1, it was nearer .8 when you look at JL's last lap as well (refer previous post where JL's last lap was .3+ shy of his previous lap) and it is not unheard of that some riders are capable of blinding last laps in an all out battle (or when they get clear)

Whilst some would say that Ianonne and Rossi are best placed and thus believe them, others may say that each had a vested interest in saying what they have as well and so will allow the belief to slide.

Again, and has been said many times, at no point immediately after the PI race was there any conjecture from Rossi, Yamaha, Ducati or Ianonne as to any of MM's actions, and in fact it was Ianonne that received the initial abuse from 'Fans Yellow'

They zoomed in on Rossi right after he got to his box and you could tell something was up, he looked different to usual. Only ..... fans blame Iannone for wanting to do his best!! I certainly didn't and clapped him for a great race!! Marquez was 0.8 behind on penultimate lap and finished clearly ahead so was around 1.1. Rossi couldn't complain about Marquez til he saw the data, as soon as he did he knew!! I guess he contacted Iannone before making it public to clarify he was correct! That would have taken time........

Gaz · Oct 31, 2015

Harryjones05 said:
They zoomed in on Rossi right after he got to his box and you could tell something was up, he looked different to usual. Only ..... fans blame Iannone for wanting to do his best!! I certainly didn't and clapped him for a great race!! Marquez was 0.8 behind on penultimate lap and finished clearly ahead so was around 1.1. Rossi couldn't complain about Marquez til he saw the data, as soon as he did he knew!! I guess he contacted Iannone before making it public to clarify he was correct! That would have taken time........

My initial take on the zooming in was that Rossi was pissed at:

- Finishing 4th - no rider is happy to finish off the podium and was the first time this year

- At Ianonne for overtaking him (not in a sense that he is not allowed to compete, but just pissed at being beaten)

- Pissed due to the speed differential down the straight as he knew that he needed a good gap onto the straight to remove the tow, had plans but Ianonne got him first

But again with the gap you need to take into account that JL slowed. It may not be a huge slow but he slowed and personally, when MM went past it looked to me as though JL's shoulders dropped in a sign of resigned defeat and he expected more.

I have suspicions regarding the Rossi/Ianonne comments and think that a lot of it is nationalism in play and an attempted head .... ....... some will say it worked, some will say backfired.

Harryjones05 · Oct 31, 2015

Gaz said:
My initial take on the zooming in was that Rossi was pissed at:

- Finishing 4th - no rider is happy to finish off the podium and was the first time this year

- At Ianonne for overtaking him (not in a sense that he is not allowed to compete, but just pissed at being beaten)

- Pissed due to the speed differential down the straight as he knew that he needed a good gap onto the straight to remove the tow, had plans but Ianonne got him first

But again with the gap you need to take into account that JL slowed. It may not be a huge slow but he slowed and personally, when MM went past it looked to me as though JL's shoulders dropped in a sign of resigned defeat and he expected more.

I have suspicions regarding the Rossi/Ianonne comments and think that a lot of it is nationalism in play and an attempted head .... ....... some will say it worked, some will say backfired.

I think Iannone is a straight up guy, if he says Marquez ...... about I believe him! Simple as that really, anyone who's raced or hammered in laps knows that Marquez final lap was well well out of the ordinary! In time we will hear a lot of opinions from a lot of people in the know and I think some of it will surprise everyone!!!

Jumkie · Oct 31, 2015

Gaz said:
As for 1.1, it was nearer .8 when you look at JL's last lap as well (refer previous post where JL's last lap was .3+ shy of his previous lap) and it is not unheard of that some riders are capable of blinding last laps in an all out battle (or when they get clear)

Whilst some would say that Ianonne and Rossi are best placed and thus believe them, others may say that each had a vested interest in saying what they have as well and so will allow the belief to slide.

Again, and has been said many times, at no point immediately after the PI race was there any conjecture from Rossi, Yamaha, Ducati or Ianonne as to any of MM's actions, and in fact it was Ianonne that received the initial abuse from 'Fans Yellow'

Looking into lap time differential is astronomically complex, to then deduce as fact rider intent is impossible. The race leader routinely slows down to avoid risk in the last lap. And without the luxury of rear view mirrors. Like I said the .... that Rossi fans are now pointing to to build their house of cards is nothing less than absurdity and perversion.

Iannone was confronted by his friend for racing him on the track. I think that's all you need to know about his impartiality to now be coerced to go along with Rossi McCarthy's accusations.

There was actually a firestorm surrounding Iannone. Iannone was on the hot seat for racing too hard (imagine that). Had Rossi said, yeah that guy broke the unwritten ........ rule to race the contender, as he was not involved in the championship, Iannone would have been crucified. Les you forget they were already ready to hang him. And it only took an act of a reporter to confront Rossi in a press conference no less to address it. This was without Rossi's accusations.. Instead Rossi chose Marcos as his primary target. And now suddenly racing hard has become suspect! The same reason the Yellow Cult was ready to eat whole Rossi's friend. Even amongst people seemingly neutral people who mildly entertain this idea that there may have been "provocation". Desperately wanting to beat somebody is now equated as provocation. Yes Marquez was desperate to beat Rossi especially in light of his baseless accusations. So yes there was an extra layer of motivation. But this has been perverted to be provocation.

Understand that all this talk to split hairs over the question of provocation is crazy talk, missing the point by a light year. Only in the world that is Rossi's MotoGP can the undeniable perpetrator (even by his own admission) become the victim and the victim become the villain! In a normal world this is the only thing we would have been talking about--the perpetrator 's action. The only thing up for discussion should have been how high he should be hung.

The bloke who took a bite at the World Farce was banned upon review of the tape. It was so dastardly an act that it even embarrassed an absolute corrupt entity. This is the measure for which MotoGP should be judged given this incident and the debacle that has resulted.

Gaz · Oct 31, 2015

Harryjones05 said:
I think Iannone is a straight up guy, if he says Marquez ...... about I believe him! Simple as that really, anyone who's raced or hammered in laps knows that Marquez final lap was well well out of the ordinary! In time we will hear a lot of opinions from a lot of people in the know and I think some of it will surprise everyone!!!

But he did not say anything until bought into it by Rossi .......... thus my conjecture

Ianonne made no public statements alluding to anything untoward until well after he had been abused by Rossi fans on social media for beating Rossi (this was where Rossi did the right thing and told them to STFU)

Funny thing, while I have not raced I know many racers and most have stated that no, the lap is not that unusual when you look down through the field as often riders cut their fastest laps towards the end of the race where they have conserved their tyres as the fuel load lightens, and of course their opponents may not have been so conserving.

Gaz · Oct 31, 2015

Jumkie said:
Looking into lap time differential is astronomically complex, to then deduce as fact rider intent is impossible. Like I said the .... that Rossi fans are now pointing to to build their house of cards is nothing less than absurdity and perversion.

Absolutely and that is the point Jums.

Statistics can be made to suit any agenda one wants to push and of course lap times are statistics

Rossi needed to push an agenda, he picked his statistic and went public with what he sees as his valid concerns

I genuinely believe that Ross believes that he is 100% correct ........... no doubt in my mind he was looking for something, found something that seemed to support a thought and has run with it. Whether we like it or not and whether we agree with him or not ............. if he is convinced than I say allow him to raise the question appropriately (this was not done however)

Marquez is just as adament that he did nothing of which Rossi has accused him.

Race Control have made no firm findings (yes, they did allude to a suspicion) that what Rossi has said is correct, and as you say to do so would be ridiculously complex and quite dangerous in terms of precedence

I suspect that if this was 7th v 8th, with the same accusations, people would say 'shaddup you whinger'

Harryjones05 · Oct 31, 2015

Jumkie said:
Looking into lap time differential is astronomically complex, to then deduce as fact rider intent is impossible. The race leader routinely slows down to avoid risk in the last lap. And without the luxury of rear view mirrors. Like I said the .... that Rossi fans are now pointing to to build their house of cards is nothing less than absurdity and perversion.

Iannone was confronted by his friend for racing him on the track. I think that's all you need to know about his impartiality to now be coerced to go along with Rossi McCarthy's accusations.

There was actually a firestorm surrounding Iannone. Iannone was on the hot seat for racing too hard (imagine that). Had Rossi said, yeah that guy broke the unwritten ........ rule to race the contender, as he was not involved in the championship, Iannone would have been crucified. Les you forget they were already ready to hang him. And it only took an act of a reporter to confront Rossi in a press conference no less to address it. This was without Rossi's accusations.. Instead Rossi chose Marcos as his primary target. And now suddenly racing hard has become suspect! The same reason the Yellow Cult was ready to eat whole Rossi's friend. Even amongst people seemingly neutral people who mildly entertain this idea that there may have been "provocation". Desperately wanting to beat somebody is now equated as provocation. Yes Marquez was desperate to beat Rossi especially in light of his baseless accusations. So yes there was an extra layer of motivation. But this has been perverted to be provocation.

Understand that all this talk to split hairs over the question of provocation is crazy talk, missing the point by a light year. Only in the world that is Rossi's MotoGP can the undeniable perpetrator (even by his own admission) become the victim and the victim become the villain! In a normal world this is the only thing we would have been talking about--the perpetrator 's action. The only thing up for discussion should have been how high he should be hung.

The bloke who took a bite at the World Farce was banned upon review of the tape. It was so dastardly an act that it even embarrassed an absolute corrupt entity. This is the measure for which MotoGP should be judged given this incident and the debacle that has resulted.

I love how you vent your Rossi hatred with absolute ....... fictional nonsense you've 'heard'!!! This .... about Rossi asking Pedrosa and Iannone not to race him is so ....... insulting to all of us!! IT WAS REPORTED BY SPANISH, YES SPANISH REPORTER!!! It's absolute drivel and fiction and to be honest embarrassing!!!!! I give up!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

michaelm · Oct 31, 2015

Harryjones05 said:
When I watched P.I I thought wow what a race, BUT I did right at the time think .... Iannone went by Marquez easily there(left hander before lukey heights I think) and also Marquez's last lap definitely made me think what the .... is this?! But watching I don't think anyone could have known he was sandbagging but if Rossi and Iannone are convinced, it's good enough for me! What I don't need convincing of is the 1.1 second faster than Lorenzo last lap. It's ridiculous and NOT in any way a miracle lap..... Even Lorenzo knows what's gone on and the little sly Spaniard is rubbing his hands together ready to .... Marquez off next weekend!!!

Just as well we know you are unbiased, otherwise it might be concluded you were looking only at what suited you.

Gaz has already raised it, but the exact figures are that MM was o.378 seconds faster than his penultimate lap on his last lap at PI, and Lorenzo 0.327 slower.

At Assen, a race concerning which you have expressed strong and recent opinions, MM was 0.426 seconds behind Rossi at the end of the penultimate lap, and got close enough to make the abortive passing manoeuvre before the end of the last lap.

I knew these were roughly the figures already btw, but looked it up so I could be exact. If you are relying on Nick Harris and his ilk for the time gaps they get it wrong all the time. I mostly watch the races on TV whilst having the MotoGP.com live timing running on my laptop; you get the gaps earlier than the ones they display on the TV coverage (as opposed to what the commentators say) anyway.

Harryjones05 · Oct 31, 2015

michaelm said:
Just as well we know you are unbiased, otherwise it might be concluded you were looking only at what suited you.

Gaz has already raised it, but the exact figures are that MM was o.378 seconds faster than his penultimate lap on his last lap at PI, and Lorenzo 0.327 slower.

At Assen, a race concerning which you have expressed strong and recent opinions, MM was 0.426 seconds behind Rossi at the end of the penultimate lap, and got close enough to make the abortive passing manoeuvre before the end of the last lap.

I knew these were roughly the figures already btw, but looked it up so I could be exact. If you are relying on Nick Harris and his ilk for the time gaps they get it wrong all the time. I mostly watch the races on TV whilst having the MotoGP.com live timing running on my laptop; you get the gaps earlier than the ones they display on the TV coverage (as opposed to what the commentators say) anyway.

Ok fair play for your dissecting of lap times etc.... I haven't got the patience for that to be honest. Still doesn't make a jot of difference to the images we saw of ridiculous pace compared to the other 3 riders on the final lap after overheating the front.... Not to mention his crew hiding his tyres as well. Class me as a Rossi freak if you want, nothing will convince me otherwise of Marquez's race manipulation and agenda against Rossi. I'm certain as a neutral fan I'd even see it! Marquez would have dicked Lorenzo at P.I if he rode as hard as he had to win races previously...

michaelm · Oct 31, 2015

Jumkie said:
Mike, I do believe Marquez was annoying with Rossi's accusations. This is why I believe he was utterly motivation to BEAT Rossi. He couldn't stand Rossi being ahead of him for one split second. Guess who else couldn't stand for Marquez being ahead for one split second?

The pivotal difference is in wanting to BEAT the other verses TOYING with him. The perception that has defined how this is believed is entirely based on Rossi's accusations. Ask anyone if after they viewed the Australian race if they perceived Marquez toying with Rossi? Have you come across one single person that has? If so please ask that person to also provide me with the lotto numbers. I'll assume your answer is NO. So what changed? The overtaking was exactly the same as PI by all involved. So what changed? Sure the motivation for Marquez to BEAT Rossi changed, of course, Rossi just questioned his integrity. That motivation was evident in Sepang. The pivotal difference is that this motivation has now been perverted to mean he was toying with Rossi. Again the difference is pivotal.

Answer : Rossi's accusations. That's the sole basis to find "fault" in Marc's overtaking, fault IN CLEAN passes no less. The perversion being that this is suspect and proof of guilt.

Well if that girl hadn't been wearing such a short skirt around that testosterone filled guy she wouldn't have got ...... She parttly to blame.

I think the Pi accusation is ludicrous and always was. As we keep saying, he won the ....... race, and the contention seems to be that he should have raced the same way he did in the PI race last year and in the 5 races in which he crashed out earlier this year rather than adopt the different tactics he used which actually won the race. if he had some motive of not wanting to push harder and risk crashing out and hand points to Rossi because he doesn't like him, tough for Rossi.

As I keep saying, I don't see why anyone is obliged to ride in a manner which allows Rossi to ride his ideal race strategy. Not being able to go with Jorge early is his problem and not anyone else's just as much as if Jorges strategy doesn't conserve his tyres as well and is vulnerable to Valentino's late race pace.

I do try to see both sides of an argument though, and concede MM may have been extra aggressive at Sepang, but again if he was he was doing it legally. He also may have been having early race problems as has often been the case this year, and Valentino combating him equally stopped him from getting into a rhythm. We don't know how fast he might have gone if Valentino had conceded he couldn't pass him and tucked in behind, we do know Valentino didn't have the pace of the 2 front runners after the incident.

I had expected you might be diverted by my point in a previous post that a previous rider Valentino said wasn't trying hard enough, as was basically his contention about MM at PI, was Casey Stoner on the 2010 Ducati.

Harryjones05 · Oct 31, 2015

michaelm said:
I think the Pi accusation is ludicrous and always was. As we keep saying, he won the ....... race, and the contention seems to be that he should have raced the same way he did in the PI race last year and in the 5 races in which he crashed out earlier this year rather than adopt the different tactics he used which actually won the race. if he had some motive of not wanting to push harder and risk crashing out and hand points to Rossi because he doesn't like him, tough for Rossi.

As I keep saying, I don't see why anyone is obliged to ride in a manner which allows Rossi to ride his ideal race strategy. Not being able to go with Jorge early is his problem and not anyone else's just as much as if Jorges strategy doesn't conserve his tyres as well and is vulnerable to Valentino's late race pace.

If you're not into Sportsmanship then don't watch sport!

Jumkie · Oct 31, 2015

Harryjones05 said:
It's absolute drivel and fiction and to be honest embarrassing!!!!! I give up!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I doubt you have given up. Most 32 your old men who claim to be 14 I've known have a tenacity for continuing to present absolute drivel and fiction. Its quite embarrassing if they knew it.

Harryjones05 · Oct 31, 2015

Michaelm it's like me trying to take on Tiger Woods in golf but you standing 2 feet behind me so I can't take a backswing! IMPOSSIBLE

If Marquez just hadn't cunted around we wouldn't be here spending hours arguing over this and that's all anyone can say about it really!!!

Jumkie · Oct 31, 2015

michaelm said:
lap times.

Not to mention every single circuit and the particular conditions at the time present a plethora of variations. As I said it's astronomically complex to analyze lap times and then deduce from it some particular rider in intent. Much less what is being levied against Marquez.

michaelm · Oct 31, 2015

Keshav said:
I suppose I'll have to watch the Motegi race again. I don't recall Rossi having been so egregiously out to screw with Lorenzo.

I don't know that MM having a tank slapper earlier is an indication that he couldn't get past Rossi much later in the race when the tank was emptier.

I know it's been said that past races cannot be said to be incontrovertible evidence of a rider's intent in later races - but having seen MM repeat the Rossi move in the corkscrew at Laguna and other similar moves, there has been, one would reasonably concur, a pattern of MM showing up the old man.

Reasonable minds will differ. Not being a big fan of either racer, I can honestly say I feel reasonably objective and unbiased about my conclusions regarding MM's behavior on track.

It was early in the Sepang race that MM and Rossi had their contretemps, however.

The eye-opener in this for me is Valentino's manipulation of his yellow army. I had previously blamed the crazy element among his fans alone for the campaigns of vilification against pretty well all of his previous rivals of any significance. I also previously would have favoured Rossi in a contest against MM if Jorge was out of the championship, but these events may have achieved what I had thought impossible and transformed me into an MM fan. What is also clear as well as Rossi's naked manipulation of his fan base is his and their sense of entitlement (so to speak in Rossi's case).

Jumkie · Oct 31, 2015

Harryjones05 said:
Ok fair play for your dissecting of lap times etc.... I haven't got the patience for that to be honest. Still doesn't make a jot of difference to the images we saw of ridiculous pace compared to the other 3 riders on the final lap after overheating the front.... Not to mention his crew hiding his tyres as well. Class me as a Rossi freak if you want, nothing will convince me otherwise of Marquez's race manipulation and agenda against Rossi. I'm certain as a neutral fan I'd even see it! Marquez would have dicked Lorenzo at P.I if he rode as hard as he had to win races previously...

This post is fascinating. You admit to not having the wherewithal to go searching for the facts that challenge your assumptions much less the deductions to be made from them. And as you say nothing will convince you otherwise, which I believe to be the case. It's interesting but religious extremism shadows your sentiments and faith in them. In a way you can't help yourself.

Harryjones05 · Oct 31, 2015

michaelm said:
It was early in the Sepang race that MM and Rossi had their contretemps, however.

The eye-opener in this for me is Valentino's manipulation of his yellow army. I had previously blamed the crazy element among his fans alone for the campaigns of vilification against pretty well all of his previous rivals of any significance. I also previously would have favoured Rossi in a contest against MM if Jorge was out of the championship, but these events may have achieved what I had thought impossible and transformed me into an MM fan. What is also clear as well as Rossi's naked manipulation of his fan base is his and their sense of entitlement (so to speak in Rossi's case).

No .... Sherlock, you're a Marquez fan........??!! Really??!! :bounce:

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