Superbikes VS MotoGP Which is the premier class ?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Feb 1 2007, 11:32 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>To put the Bayliss win in perspective a bit. He was freash off a holiday having finished superbikes, the other guys were at the end of a 17 round gp season and recently back from the taxing flyaways.

Ermm sorry to backpedal a bit.

Moto gp season = 17 rounds, 1 race each = 17 races
WSBK season= 12 rounds, 2 races each = 24 races.

I think old Bayliss boy would've been a bit tired out too.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (basspete @ Feb 2 2007, 08:16 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Edwards had to win a shed load of races to come back to win that championship. The first half of that season belonged to Bayliss, but the second half belonged to Colin.
Your response is clearly evidence of somebody Google-ing after a bad case of foot-in-mouth. How could you forget such a great season? It looks to me that you googled to refresh your memory to me.

Here is what I can remember about that season, it was about Bayliss and Edwards every race. And when it came down to the last race, you may remember (perhaps they have a video on Google to help you) they traded paint and had several lead changes to decide the championship. They almost ran each other off the track! Poor Xaus (Troy's teammate) needed to get in-front of Edwards and Bayliss needed to win for him to edge out for the title. For a moment, it looked like that might happen but Ruben just couldn’t keep pace and at the last moments got caught up behind a back-marker. So Colin and Troy took matters into their own hands and duked it out for the win. In the final part of the track is when they made contact, Colin went on to win the race and win the championship. I remember it, because it was one of the most exiting seasons and exciting races I have ever seen. It lived up to all the hype.

BTW: Bayliss had more wins than Colin that year, 14 to 11.


To stay on topic, I had previously felt WSBK was the premier class because it seemed more exciting. I like them both really, but if I had to chose today and say which is the "premier" it would be MotoGP.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Feb 2 2007, 05:45 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Almost all riders strive to get into the superior class, but only the very best make it, and only the seriously gifted can last/get good results.
Yes "almost" (not all) riders strive to get into the superior class. But for the rest of your statement, I respectfully disagree Tom. Not only the "very best" make it. It has more to do with the opportunity given. And since the opportunity is few and far between, some of the "best" stay where they are. Think about the top guys in the AMA and WSBK. Certainly some of the "best" but not all of the best riders are in MotoGP. Why? Well. that's up to debate...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Racejumkie @ Feb 3 2007, 05:04 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Your response is clearly evidence of somebody Google-ing after a bad case of foot-in-mouth. How could you forget such a great season? It looks to me that you googled to refresh your memory to me.

Here is what I can remember about that season, it was about Bayliss and Edwards every race. And when it came down to the last race, you may remember (perhaps they have a video on Google to help you) they traded paint and had several lead changes to decide the championship. They almost ran each other off the track! Poor Xaus (Troy's teammate) needed to get in-front of Edwards and Bayliss needed to win for him to edge out for the title. For a moment, it looked like that might happen but Ruben just couldn’t keep pace and at the last moments got caught up behind a back-marker. So Colin and Troy took matters into their own hands and duked it out for the win. In the final part of the track is when they made contact, Colin went on to win the race and win the championship. I remember it, because it was one of the most exiting seasons and exciting races I have ever seen. It lived up to all the hype.

BTW: Bayliss had more wins than Colin that year, 14 to 11.
To stay on topic, I had previously felt WSBK was the premier class because it seemed more exciting. I like them both really, but if I had to chose today and say which is the "premier" it would be MotoGP.
Yes "almost" (not all) riders strive to get into the superior class. But for the rest of your statement, I respectfully disagree Tom. Not only the "very best" make it. It has more to do with the opportunity given. And since the opportunity is few and far between, some of the "best" stay where they are. Think about the top guys in the AMA and WSBK. Certainly some of the "best" but not all of the best riders are in MotoGP. Why? Well. that's up to debate...

Well jumkie, i stand corrected, thats not how I remembered the season panning out. The problem is, that because I know so much about everything, I didnt check the facts before making my post.


But thanks for the tips on using Google, any time I go there It just gives me pictures of guitars or girls.

Pete

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Racejumkie @ Feb 3 2007, 05:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Yes "almost" (not all) riders strive to get into the superior class. But for the rest of your statement, I respectfully disagree Tom. Not only the "very best" make it. It has more to do with the opportunity given. And since the opportunity is few and far between, some of the "best" stay where they are. Think about the top guys in the AMA and WSBK. Certainly some of the "best" but not all of the best riders are in MotoGP. Why? Well. that's up to debate...

Yes i think to some extent you have a point. I mean some riders will find it easier to get grand prix opertunities than others without being superior riders. But i think that most people who do get into gp's for these reasons and don't have the abilities to back up their position they are usually dropped soon enough.

And of course all the best riders arn't in gp. Like the worst rider in gp is not as good by any means as the best non gp rider. But i think the best non gp rider is not good enough to be in the top 5 in a motogp season.

However motogp has the strongest competition. The performance gaps between 1st and 15th are not large and are quite evenly spaced, especially when compared to other series.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (phleg @ Feb 3 2007, 01:33 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Ermm sorry to backpedal a bit.

Moto gp season = 17 rounds, 1 race each = 17 races
WSBK season= 12 rounds, 2 races each = 24 races.

I think old Bayliss boy would've been a bit tired out too.

Not suggesting he hadn't completed a full season of racing. But the end of sesaon gp travelling scheduele is known to be particularly draining. Compared to the near month of recovery that Troy had. Not to mention that the world superbike scene leaves Europe very few times (not sure how much), but that will be much less taxing.

Also remember that this was one element of many that contributed to Troy's Valencia situation. I am not trying to take anything away from they guy. He rode an excellent race, and is a great rider. But i don't believe that this singel race shows that he has gp potential, or or is truly at the level of the gp riders.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Feb 3 2007, 06:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>However motogp has the strongest competition. The performance gaps between 1st and 15th are not large and are quite evenly spaced, especially when compared to other series.

That maybe because there is a 7% off pole classification time to be able to start the race, meaning that if a rider does not make it inside that margin he is out. Do not put your money on this but I think I read it somewhere in MotoGP rules.

Now, Second to Bayliss there in Valencia was Capirossi, meaning that both Factory Dukes were top level in Valencia’s track. Bayliss did great there definitely, no doubt, not putting him down either. However, he also had a Factory Ducati for ’03 (Ducati ended up 2th in the manufactures Championship) and ’04 (ended up 3 th) the hole season and finished 5th and 14th respectively. Therefore, a whole season is a different story… take Jaque at Shangai ’05 for another example.

The Duke was a dog in 2004, and it needed Bridgestone tyres. Sure, they came 3rd in the manufacturer's championship in 2004, but that's 3rd out of what? five? Who did they beat? Kawasaki and Suzuki? Not exactly a great feat. Bayliss would have done better on a 2005 Ducati with Bridgestones, might have even won a race or two. I don't deny that he wouldn't be taking it to Rossi every week, but he's no slouch. He could cut it in GPs, just not as a serious contender.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (richo @ Feb 3 2007, 11:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>The Duke was a dog in 2004, and it needed Bridgestone tyres. Sure, they came 3rd in the manufacturer's championship in 2004, but that's 3rd out of what? five? Who did they beat? Kawasaki and Suzuki? Not exactly a great feat. Bayliss would have done better on a 2005 Ducati with Bridgestones, might have even won a race or two. I don't deny that he wouldn't be taking it to Rossi every week, but he's no slouch. He could cut it in GPs, just not as a serious contender.

Yes, of course on a ’05 or a ’06 may have been different for Bayliss on Bridgestone (Valencia is proof of that). Nevertheless, the point that was mentioned before also has bases: “One race great result but the whole Championship is another story”, and we can see that as I mention, in ’03 Ducati got a 2 th in the Manufactures Championship with 225 final points beneath Honda’s 395 but above Yamaha’s 175 (That on their starting year). And there, Capirossi was 4th and Bayliss 6th. So I am not arguing, he is a great rider, but “the whole Championship is another story” has bases two.

The trouble with Bayliss was that he refused to adapt his style to riding gp bikes. He is too agressive and doesn't have the precision that makes the best gp riders so good. Not to mention the skills to setting up a bike with so many parameters and the ability to not make mistakes.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Racejumkie @ Feb 2 2007, 12:15 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>sb248, I distinctly remember reading your posts and disagreeing with about almost everything you say, was it you that said you hate the "American" way of celebrating, that is what "..... you right off"? So it is news that I would find something to agree with you about. I agree with you that supercross/motocross is the hardest form of motorcycle racing. If you care, you can find my reasons on another thread.

But I think if we are talking "roadracing" then its MotoGP.

To restore balance to the universe, I have to disagree with you about who has the best motocross. Though you admit the US has the best supercrossers, the top guys in this series also race US motocross. So it would follow that the US motocross is the pinnacle series of the sport. The Des Nations is an event. A very important event, but so is the US Open. I'm not sure I would say the winner of one event is the best, but I would if that rider won the series. I think Stewart will win both the US Supercross and Motocross this year. He is clearly the fastest guy, but he does make many mistakes. But over a series, he will come out on top no doubt.
hello there jumkie
so you remember me then , well i do stick by my words, i suppose its just a difference in our social differences. but i was at the des nations and watched stefan reel bubba in pass him and take off into the sunrise. and this was in the first moto, so any excuse about riding smart is bull. bubba had nothin for him, and this was from they guy who was the only one who could even get near ricky.

and as far as supercross and motocross go yes they are both derived from the one sport but supercross is an entirely different ballgame. but i will remind you of a few european names who showed you up at your own game.
jean michelle bayle
mickeal pichon
david vuillimen
think our own jamie dobb won a east coast supercross
who later went own to win the 125 world crown at the turn of the millenia just before mr langston. another name you should be well famillar with.

it would have been great for ricky to have rode at matterly basin so stefan could have done the same to him as he had done to bubba, but it wasnt to be as fate would have it. but europe will claim back something this year, in the form of the motogp crown anyway so if you see nicky tell him to shine that trophy up real nice for rossi

peace one love jumkie

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (basspete @ Feb 3 2007, 10:39 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Well jumkie, i stand corrected,


But thanks for the tips on using Google, any time I go there It just gives me pictures of guitars or girls.
Hey Pete, that's a good one, I'm having the same problem, but just with the girls part (I played the guitar only when I was a youngster but gave it up regretfully).

Anyway, buddy, talking about girls, I think this thread should have been about who has the better umbrella girls: MotoGP or WSBK?---now that would be an interesting pictorial eh?


Also, Pete, I think you are right about the crystal meth...because why the hell are people repeating their post here, its like when you debate yourself....is this some sick conspiracy to creep me out???


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (sb248 @ Feb 4 2007, 03:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>peace one love jumkie
Hey sb248, I just got back from the Supercross at Anaheim. Great race, Bubba ran away with the win after a few bumps with Reed. Bubba is fast man, but he does have a tenedency of making mistakes. Anyway, I think he will win the SX title this year, what do you think?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Feb 4 2007, 01:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>The trouble with Bayliss was that he refused to adapt his style to riding gp bikes. He is too agressive and doesn't have the precision that makes the best gp riders so good. Not to mention the skills to setting up a bike with so many parameters and the ability to not make mistakes.
Tom, I'm not sure I agree, but I figure your guess is as good as mine. It is a real mystery to me why some guys can do well at certain times in their lives and suck at other times. I have much love for Bayliss because I use to be more into WSBK than MotoGP. After-all, they were coming regularly to the States (unlike GP). I grew to admire Bayliss' racing and figured it wasn't lack of adapting or willingness to learn, and certainly, it wasn't a lack of experience on the tracks, that I could figure on explaining his sub performance in GP. I feel like the guy was fast and consistent and I don't see why he would suddenly become grid filler in GP. Seeing him race and following him in WSBK (as I did Colin also) leads me to one conclusion, its not that they suddenly became mediocre riders, but my conclusion is that they were on a sub par package. I'm not ready to say the tires were the only thing to point to, nor do I think the level of competition is vastly different in GP. But I do think that when it comes to prototypes as GPs are, the critical variances are such that an inferior set up or machine can have a greater deal of effect on the race outcome then the homologated (production) bikes that are WSBK. The Ducati had Loris on it, a great and fast, and proven champ in his own right, but he wasn’t setting the world on fire on his bike. I wouldn’t say Loris is a mediocre rider just as much as I’m not ready to say (or suggest) Bayliss (and Colin for that matter) is a mediocre. But like I said, it’s an enigma to me, and my guess is just as good as anybodies I guess.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Racejumkie @ Feb 5 2007, 04:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>.... but my conclusion is that they were on a sub par package.

Spot on, the package has EVERYTHING to do with it.. You think Edwards gets the exact same parts as Rossi? Pfft, your dreaming.. Just like Bayliss would have been second fiddle to Capirossi, on a developing bike. (when he was on Honda, he was sooo far down the parts chain that he never got a chance to get comfortable) Ultimately, in WSBK, he has everything built around him and gets number one rider priority, hence his dominance.

The race at Valencia Troy had in GP last year was a one off, he had the best of equipment and tyres and dominated the race from lap one until the chequerd flag (could have snared pole aswell). Also, no rider, WSBK or MotoGP is mediocre, they are all great in their own right, some greater than others of course..

I really don't feel like the package is a major issue. I mean as much of a beast as it was, itss till a factory bike on Michelins! And the results were not too bad. I think one of the reasons he lost his job at ducati was not that he wasn't fast enough, it was that after the first year, he showed very little if any improvement. He failed to actually adapt and get better. Then of course Bayliss gets a customer Honda, and there is obviously nothing wrong with that. If you compare him to Edwards for example, he took a year on a customer honda with relatively mediocre results, and since then has managed to improve (although not by enough in my opinion). The thing that sets these guys appart is that even though i feel colins bike could be put to better use, and he is not the future that yamaha needs, is that he adapted to gp's. Colin changed his riding style, and he comunicated well with the engineers for development purposes, and he stayed on his bike and in the points. These are all things that troy didn't manage so well.

So maybe his package wasn't fit for race wins and title challanges, but its how he dealt with the situation that cost him his ride. I am not trying to say that he is anything other than a great rider. Like antfan said, wsbk guys are all excellent. But i consider him a great superbiker who doesn't have what it takes for gp's.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Feb 3 2007, 08:59 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>the world superbike scene leaves Europe very few times (not sure how much), but that will be much less taxing.
twice... qatar & philip island.

Hey sb248, I just got back from the Supercross at Anaheim. Great race, Bubba ran away with the win after a few bumps with Reed. Bubba is fast man, but he does have a tenedency of making mistakes. Anyway, I think he will win the SX title this year, what do you think?
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hey jumkie
cool, with out a dought he is the fastest rider around at the min, just a tad unstable at times, but then so was ricky when he first moved to 250.

i have to say i never seen anybody whip like him. what about brownie i always liked him, hard as nails. seen him race here in ireland even, when he raced in the british and world champ. in my opinion one of the best riders never to get the world title, although that year he was on the honda which was a complete bundle. you going to make the trip to the des nations this year, i think its on your side of the pond this time.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (sb248 @ Feb 5 2007, 02:34 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>hey jumkie
cool, with out a dought he is the fastest rider

i have to say i never seen anybody whip like him. what about brownie i always liked him, hard as nails. seen him race here in ireland

you going to make the trip to the des nations this year, i think its on your side of the pond this time.
Yeah, Bubba can whip it all right. I agree with you about Brownie, he just could string enough points along to win the big prize. I got to see him in Vegas once, the guy was lighting.

If the Des Nations actuallymake it here, you know I'll be close enough to get some roost in my face.

I moved over to the Other Race Chat area.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (frosty58 @ Feb 5 2007, 06:21 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>twice... qatar & philip island.

"World" superbike AKA the "European" championship.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Racejumkie @ Feb 6 2007, 01:11 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>"World" superbike AKA the "European" championship.
bit like CART world series. some years it will go to another country sometimes ot wont.
as ive said before ,if its a world series /championship it should be played out around the world. 1 race 1 country

the SBK series and MGP series are for two very different style of riders.. as once expressed by a GP/SBK racer.. GP requires setup that can blow your mind... with this in mind, the GP rider needs to see the bigger picture.. SBK rider have relatively limited stuff to mess with when compared to GP.. so SBK riders are precision riders, consistency and concentration will win races..

There are basically two style of riders I can see in GP.. most ppl fall into the setup king style like Biaggi or Barros who needs the perfect setup to win races.. Others like Capirossi and Rossi seem to ride through the machinery's imperfections... BUT note that Rossi is also a setup king of kings.. he can make the bike to his liking but also ride the ... off his imperfect bike like no one can.. that is why if M1 has a pefect setup day, you see Rossi win and Edwards in top 10 but if M1 is not perfect, the Rossi podiums while Edwards is in 15th place..

The problems some SBK riders faced when they come to GP is that the crew chief is not good enough to tell the riders that messing up with the setup can make the rider/mechanics lose focus of the problem they were solving (eg chatter). But they seem to do well in SBK.. Some GP riders that depend on their perfect setup and other imperfect setup can go to SBK and find themselves struggling.

Therefore, each of this series is like the king of their racing.. MGP king of GP motorcycle racing while WSBK is king of SBK/SST racing.. it is just what you prefer.. don't mixed those two up!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (frosty58 @ Feb 2 2007, 01:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>ogunski i think this applies to any series. not just motogp. the point is would u rather have a competitive package in gp's? or a competitive package in wsbk? which series would u, as a top rider, want to show off your abilities? the best or 1 of the rest?

it is true setup is vital for any series.. but there is a difference b/t gp setup and sbk setup