Joined Oct 2006
25K Posts | 4K+
Your Mom's House
This was a perfectly reasonable post. I don’t see how it can be criticized or have have a problem with what you've said above. As you know I argue in favor of Stoner, which means we've disagreed; though I agree with you sentiments above, people should present their opinions and not get in return the knee-jerk reaction to lob insults as a supposed refute, me included. There are members who I disagreed with over the years, Talpa comes to mind, as many others whom I wish posted more often, he was a knowledgeable racing fan. MotoVuu, J4, and I can think of many in the past who despite my disagreements at least presented substantial attempts at explaining their position. For example, Babefish comes to mind, I had many disagreements with him, but that bloke at least knew a great deal about racing where we could have a substantive debate. Of course, human nature and the characteristics of Interneting is such that we can skip civility, not the least problem being any ..... who knows .... all about racing and histrionics of the sport can take on simplistic affiliations similar to superficial fans of stick & ball sports and post unsophisticated and tiresome little crap posts of little value.
It's a right for anyone to take a position of disliking riders, Stoner shouldn't be immune, hell MigsEvilAngel hated Nicky Hayden, as repugnant as that sounds to me, and I'm sure there are other people on earth who shared Migs' fringe sentiments. Hell I've gone from admiring Jorge Lorenzo for years to, in a span of a month, hoping he ..... away his career based on his selfish, exploitive, cut-throat, ruthless and opportunistic behavior to reassert himself at the most unforgivable moment after having a failed season.
I think if we're going to take a position on a rider it's important to make reasonable arguments when debating. Obviously that's a bit much to expect when Interneting knowing any little schmuck can log on, do a little Googling, watch a little racing here and there, then pretend to debate the sport.
If you live in a glass house don't throw rocks.
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On a serious side I do wonder if nationality and the expectations of one's nation also play a part.
In Oz, we generally do not have athletes who earn what could be called 'huge' dollars by world terms if we look at huge salaries being associated to sports such as american Basketball, US NFL, European football etc. Whilst we do have athletes in some of those arenas earning good dollars, they reside overseas and as such in Australia we actually get little mainstream coverage.
Now I mention this as what this means for many Australian athletes is that they will earn 'enough' to set themselves up such that they are comfortable with a number investing additional funds so that they have an ongoing income. Many of our very high profile athletes who retire from their sport will end up in a paid role such as coach or commentator as often they need a little supplementary income or they miss the attention of their former sport.
With our motorcycle retirement, many stay involved more from a 'less or non paid' role whilst others just stay away from the spotlight or earning smaller dollars in coaching or where they have earned well they often just seemingly disappear with little to no fanfare and/or ostentatious needs.
When you have an Australian athlete who generally displays their wealth or what is seen as a poor attitude they will cop it in the media (Bernard Tomic who flaunts his sports cars as an example) so often the 'wants' of a retired athlete may be seemingly less than that of other countries.
Not sure of this then plays a part into the 'expectations' that are placed on athletes as most Aussies want to be comfortable in their lives and that comfortable may mean somewhat different to that of the US or other countries.
It was a perfectly reasonable individual post and you are correct to defend your actual friend, and I am getting old and crabby and should stop posting when in the grip of insomnia, or perhaps at all.
From my point of view I got jack of being patronised for being a passionate fan on a fan forum, by someone who couldn't actually ever win a debate with me on the issues concerned back in the day, and the issue is fresh for me because I have seen the same phenomenon unfolding for Marquez and Lorenzo since late 2015, since when I have become a much more argumentative poster as you may just possibly have noticed. If Lorenzo now proves or has proved to be undeserving of sympathy, so be it.
We also had a very nasty flame war on here not 2 years ago based on the principle of it not being appropriate for posters to direct other posters as to how they should comport themselves or what they should discuss.
Totally agree.
A biography is a story (emphasis on story) which is often told from a biased or tainted perspective (depends on whether authorised or not as to where that bias may lay).
Very few biographies would tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth without some form of message to be delivered, favourable (or not, again depending on the side of the fence) statements and generally things that will stand the individual subject in a good light.
I have read the CS one and found it an interesting book to be honest, more around the childhood struggles and some of the aspects he experienced growing up and personally I do not see much of what is commented here (both sides).
Joined Nov 2015
872 Posts | 420+
Stratosphere
Oh, the irony is endless. How many times on this forum when accused of being boorish have you whinged about your freedom being impinged by a perceived nanny state?
Joined Oct 2006
25K Posts | 4K+
Your Mom's House
You made a well argued post, and this is what i was just saying to Mdub, I enjoy reading posts that present a position then support it with substantial reasons. (Though I disagreed with some of your points, particularly because I would argue MotoGP is quite distinct from the generalities of typical league sports); nevertheless, this point above caught my attention. Your analysis and conclusion of why people were sympathetic to Maxime Berger's suicide doesn’t follow your assessment, at least not what I read from people's reactions on the forum, I think we'd be jumping to conclusions that he killed himself because of a supposed inability to cope with flipping burgers. The report of his suicide made mention of his then employment, but it didn't offer any evidence that this was the motive for his suicide. More to the point, I didn't read anybody being sympathetic to suicide over the notion that he couldn't cope with a menial job after supposed hopes of grandeur. As for me, and im sure you agree, I don't know why people commit suicide, but I assume they had substantial reason.
If you live in a glass house don't throw rocks.
Joined Jul 2007
5K Posts | 1K+
unda cheese
You have no self awareness whatsoever
You see the join date by my name? 10 plus years Walter. Everything you've said has been said by scores before. Your facsimile is about as fresh and relevant as facsimile's.
If I haven't changed in 10 years why would you think I'm going to start now?
Your a one dimensional dullard who is either whining or musing. This is my last reply to you. Your boring as .... and not worth reading or replying.
Of course it is his own perspective and doesn't prove anything, and as his statements in interviews when he was racing frequently did contains inconsistencies. Just because you are paranoid doesn't mean the world isn't against you however, and I did draw from it that he didn't think him winning titles was popular with Dorna with his title wins, particularly the second one, seeming to prompt rule changes, and that he like MM was not keen on the element among fandom who would boo riders on podiums, spit at them etc given the element of risk in the sport, a sport which exists at least partly for the entertainment of said fans.
It is the pressure/mentally weak thing to which I object; if Valentino Rossi, Mick Doohan, Marc Marquez or Dovi for that matter want to call him weak fine, but not armchair critics when he has won 38 premier class races and 2 titles, 23 of the races and 1 of the titles on a ride that has derailed the careers and in some cases gone close to actually breaking pretty much every other rider who has accepted the seat, with the exceptions of Dovi obviously and perhaps Capirossi. Sure Rossi, Doohan, MM etc are tougher/have exhibited much more sustained focus, and all credit to them for that, but the way he rode that Ducati hardly betrayed any lack of courage.
Joined Jul 2007
5K Posts | 1K+
unda cheese
Thankfully, For the most part that seems to have abated with the exception of Little Walter who's entire purpose on here is follow 4 or 5 people around and admonish their posts.
Joined Aug 2007
11K Posts | 3K+
Pomona NY
It's not as if every American athlete makes Michael Jordan money (tho in baseball, basketball and football a lot of them come close) so there's lots of athletes who live relatively humble lives when their career is over. I think a big difference is that the US has an obsessive cult of celebrity problem that keeps retired athletes in the news.
Joined Nov 2015
872 Posts | 420+
Stratosphere
So that means you've been a clueless misanthrope for ten whole years? I guess by your standards that infuses your gibbering with merit.
You're not going to reply to me anymore? Bravo! Saying nothing is the most honest thing you'll ever do.
Joined Feb 2007
11K Posts | 2K+
Tennessee
Capirossi made waves on the 1000, he was a certified train wreck from 07 on. You can’t be mentally weak and perform at the level Stoner did, it’s just silly to suggest it, but we are talking about boppers here. Stoner was just disgusted with the manipulation and the entire circus and walked away. His choice, he owed me nothing. Once he left , Marquez became my guy because I knew from watching him that he was going tear that gentlemen’s Racing agreement to shreds and go after Rossi and anyone else who got in his way. Stoner was not motivated by numbers, Marquez has Stoner talent and wants records, a combination that will win many more titles.
Joined Oct 2006
25K Posts | 4K+
Your Mom's House
I disagree, it's just not a "bopper" thing. Certainly the majority of CS detractors are of the bopper variety, who are overwhelming the largest number of fans in GP, they hated him because he beat Rossi, which made him one of the worst persons on earth. But CS is a special case because I know many solid racing fans whom are staunch non-rossi fans, that dislike CS. Several of my personal friends dislike CS, and we've argued far more vehemently and substantively than most of the debates I read here, which eventually digress into insults and worse, splintered friendliness (I raise my hand too.) But I've come to learn that people can dislike riders and still be knowledgeable reasonable race fans, not always but it happens.
You and I have disagreement about Lorenzo's behavior and intentions the last couple of races, we presented our reasons, I think you're wrong, mistaken at best, but I don’t think you're a horrible person. Just like I don't think J4 is a horrible person either, but I'll call him stupid he'll call me drunk, etc. Once it gets personal because of Interneting, then the debate is lost.
I'm serious about arguing with friends about Stoner, people who agree with me on 99% of everything else. Something about Stoner is special, and that quality has rubbed some the wrong way. I don’t get it, and I've argued far more with them one-on-one than anything ive written debated here, I've concluded, despite my best efforts to argue my position, that something else is going on other than the debate had.
If you live in a glass house don't throw rocks.
I actually get it when not influenced by insomnia and red wine, he is an unusual and prickly personality, not very likeable in his public persona anyway, and your friend is not a bopper and has good takes on bike racing in general and I am sure knows more about bikes than I do. Quite a lot of Australians actually didn't or don't like Stoner.
I just occasionally get inappropriately angry about being derided for being an obsessed fan of Stoner's by someone who seems to dislike him fairly obsessively, which has prompted me a couple of times to mount attacks on posts by that member other than those related strictly to current GP matters as he does most posts and posters which/who make even the most tenuous reference to Stoner. Like Gaz I know Stoner isn't/wasn't the greatest rider of all time, I just found it spectacular and thrilling to watch him ride, and feel that unfair treatment as well as factors intrinsic to him contributed to the relatively early end to that experience.
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