Stoners warm-up lap

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MdubSTYLIE @ Apr 14 2010, 12:39 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>How does the fact that he was out in front so early contradict my view? He lays down scorching lap after scorching, but the one costly error and its done. I just think race sim would be good mental practice for any of the riders who are not doing it. He does need to do it, to see if he can hold pace or not.

I am not asking him to conform to someone else's way of doing practicing. They all do it different, he will never run practice like Lorenzo does. ...., lorenzo probably does more laps in a single weekend than CS does all year, well last year for sure. How could you not see the benefit of running some race sim? Where do you see any weakness in it?

I find it laughable that you find me to be a conformist. With my conformist views. But being different just for the sake of being an different, not staying true to what is best for you and others. Thats just plain stupid.

Did you get my pm?

#1 The fact that Stoner has won more races at Qatar than he's lost would be a good indication that he knows what works there. That he fell while pushing hard - does not not negate all the good results he's had doing things his own way. It's always the same. When Rossi falls - it's just a blip on the screen. But when Stoner falls - his detractors act as if it's the end of his career, he's victim to Rossi's mind games, etc.

#2 For all of Lorenzo's laps run - he's won less MGP races than Stoner and no MGP championships.

#3 I don't get what you're saying. Stoner sticks with his own council which has brought him more podiums in the last three years than anyone other than Rossi. That he's doing something just for the sake of being different - is based on what evidence? Stoner does things his way and has results to show for it.

Will check for your PM shortly.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MdubSTYLIE @ Apr 15 2010, 08:28 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>All of these statements are true, I can't deny that. But all I was trying to say is he would benefit from race sim. Not a change in what it is he does, but more of a addition to what it is he already is doing. Like I said, I just don't see how he wouldn't benefit. Well unless it's really hot that weekend.
Of course your right dubsta, they know it but won't admit it. How can it not be beneficial to do a race sim for your setup?

For whatever reason cs has a problem with it. You can't blame engine regs as he didn't do them before they were even thought of. You can't blame sickness for the same reason.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talpa @ Apr 15 2010, 12:11 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Of course your right dubsta, they know it but won't admit it. How can it not be beneficial to do a race sim for your setup?

For whatever reason cs has a problem with it. You can't blame engine regs as he didn't do them before they were even thought of. You can't blame sickness for the same reason.
This cannot be inferred from the information available to you. The only thing that can be inferred is that Stoner does not do race sims. The whys and wherefores are not clear, but I'd doubt its because he has "a problem" with doing them given his race record.

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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talpa @ Apr 15 2010, 12:11 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Of course your right dubsta, they know it but won't admit it. How can it not be beneficial to do a race sim for your setup?

For whatever reason cs has a problem with it. You can't blame engine regs as he didn't do them before they were even thought of. You can't blame sickness for the same reason.
He actually did race or near race simulations in 2007, which if anything reinforces your argument, although there was more practice time then.

The focus on this is because it has happened 2 races in a row both at times when he was on his own and didn't need to be pushing hard (certainly in the case of the valencia warm-up lap anyway although I don't see how a race simulation would have helped prevent that), and I would not argue there is no problem. However the valencia crash was his only one last year, and you guys said it would be meaningless if he won so I guess it is also meaningless that he crashed. It could be argued that he has only crashed twice in meaningful situations, laguna seca 2008 and qatar 2010 as the championship was pretty well gone after laguna seca 2008 and riding conservatively was only going to get him a closer second place.

Been trying to be good and stay out of the controversial stuff, but here goes.

Can someone please tell me what a race simulation is and how you do it?

I mean, yes certainly the idea is to go out there and cut a large number of laps at a consistent pace. A pace that is thought to be that required to provide a high placing with in the race.

But thet simulation cannot take into account a true race simulation were other riders are involved, or with dicing etc and as such the only real true simulation is a race itself is it not?

Certainly, I see the argument that were CS (in this case) to have cut a string of high 1:55 laps it may'qualify' as a race simulation to some, but there is no guarantee that it would have highlighted the problem either.

Let us also recognise that CS had front end issues which he tried to adjust and ride around (some he is often accused of NOT doing) and yet he crashed (for whatever reason people wish to believe). Yet, whilst CS had front end grip issues we were to find at the end that VR had rear grip issues so if a race simulation would have identified CS's problems, why then did VR not identify his?

The answer for me is circumstance and changes to conditions from minute to minute, day to day. Basically, no matter what they did today, tomorrow was different and both suffered - one staying upright and earning 25 points, the other playing in the desert sand.






Gaz

To GAZ

Agree with your last point. However as you pointed out stoners problems came in the first half of the race rossis to the end. Now i don't know what VR does in warm up i never see that, but the way everyone has wrote on here he seems to run for longer. Which could explain why he had problems towards the end. No one will do a complete 22 laps or whatever that track requires cause of the fuel and tyres etc. Race simulation is hard but if you set yourself targets at certain points of the track. Maybe do the odd fast and wide run and a bend (to feel how the track is) then this is probably as close as you can get. No sport can do an exact race simulation. I was a pole vaulter and sometimes before a major competition in traing i would warm up as usuall do my usaul warm up vaults and then wait 1/2hour before i had my first vault, then wait another 20minutes and so on. Occassionally i would do 3 vaults 1 straight after the other to see what i need to do mentally if i was the only one left in at a height. It worked for me on occassion - but as you said it all depends on the day and the weather conditions. I could warm up in the bright sunshine nice and warm and finish a competion 3 hours later piss wet through cause it rained 2 hours in and had to sit around for ages for the rain to stop.

I get what you are saying, noone or team can simulate a race situation but they can get close.

what are Casey crash's are they mostly
Front-enders ?
cant recall

Race
Brno 08 Qatar 10 are two
wasn't Mugello race 06 a frontender ?

What are his practice Crash's

On the contrary gaz, the result suggests that vr made the most of his sliding issues-rode around them and won the race........whether or not his race sim helped him deal with this is impossible to say, but IMO checking the setup over race distance regardless of track/other rider circumstances, has to give the rider and team a great idea as to where they will be in certain stages of the race, which of course allows for strategies other than ride flat out over the limit all race.....and as we now know a rider like vr is happy to take the points if the win is unlikely

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Keshav @ Apr 14 2010, 08:34 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>#1 The fact that Stoner has won more races at Qatar than he's lost would be a good indication that he knows what works there. That he fell while pushing hard - does not not negate all the good results he's had doing things his own way. It's always the same. When Rossi falls - it's just a blip on the screen. But when Stoner falls - his detractors act as if it's the end of his career, he's victim to Rossi's mind games, etc.

#2 For all of Lorenzo's laps run - he's won less MGP races than Stoner and no MGP championships.

#3 I don't get what you're saying. Stoner sticks with his own council which has brought him more podiums in the last three years than anyone other than Rossi. That he's doing something just for the sake of being different - is based on what evidence? Stoner does things his way and has results to show for it.

Will check for your PM shortly.
Not according to stoner, He says he fell because he was backing off ! So do you agree with most of us that stoner is full of .....

In race simulations as in all else he falls short of the magnificence that is valentino (obviously).

Whether or not he should do race simulations is a question which can be asked; maybe he should, I don't personally have a strong opinion. An argument can possibly be made in regard to his mid-race crashes at brno and misano in 2008, although I can think of a few other factors which may also be relevant. I fail to see any relevance of race simulations to his crash on lap 6 of the last race, or to his crash in the warm up lap at valencia or for that matter to his laguna 2008 crash since it would be hard to simulate rossi blocking his line in every corner (as he was entitled to do) for 20 odd laps.

He mucked it up at qatar. He said he mucked it up, but obviously should have worn a hair shirt in the post-race interview or fasted for thirty days in the adjacent desert or something so it would be more satisfying for you guys. If he does it many (probably any) more times he won't win the world championship as I am sure he is aware.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talpa @ Apr 15 2010, 01:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>.....and as we now know a rider like vr is happy to take the points if the win is unlikely
Not the vr I watched for most of his career; you may have watched a different one.

Doesn't take the usual suspects long I see MDub


How you been anyway?


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MdubSTYLIE @ Apr 15 2010, 01:47 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Don't play dumb. Race simulation, not race reinactment. Beside isn't a normal race for Casey quite lonley. The most he see's of people is in practice when he is flippin the bird and giving the evil eye.

Removing the piss take from your reply (not bad by the way) let me ask this way.

Does a male thrusting his groin in the air in the direction of an attractive lady simulate ...?

I thought not so fast laps does not simulate a race.

Yes, a string of fast laps (and string means a good number here - Hayden style) could one suspects prepare a rider/bike/team better than a string of short burst runs (ie. 4 - 5 laps) as is Stoner style. But we cannot for certain tell can we as if we are now to deduce that he fell this time due to poor set-up then, as another poster mentioned earlier the same must be said of all riders who fall unaided.




<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MdubSTYLIE @ Apr 15 2010, 01:47 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>possibleSo you reenactmentslonelythink maybe doing more laps in practirecognizece, may also caused him to fall to? Dude, come on! The only thing that is going to do is get you more in touch with the bike. You stated it perfectly, Rossi had rear end issues(no pun intended), but still managed 25 points. Where Stoner picked up 0 with his obvious front end issues. Hmmmm, maybe his lack of running long stints is due to the ??? illness.

Man, did you type and then re-edit this by chance - farken early here and i see word melding into words

And yep, the exact point is that one managed to ride around successfully, one did not, but by following the theorists in this place both should have identified their probably issues during practice if both followed the methods of our experts.

Did either identify the problem in practice - it would appear not and for two of the top guys to be caught out to me indicates that other factors, those that could not be envisaged reasonably played their individual parts.

Either that or there was a lolly shop at turn 6 and Casey needed a hit where as VR wouldn't share the joy





Gaz

By unlikely I mean if vr is dealing with large deficits he won't ride above himself and crash Mick.


Thanks for the stats dubsta, that's amazing! No doubt cs is seriously quick within a few laps on the bike. But it just seems to be nowhere near enough time on the bike at race pace.

IMO cs still has a lot to learn, raw speed he has no disputing that, but so do others. The difference being his chief competition just happens to be very, very good in all areas.

When vr retires it should be interesting for cs and Jorge but IMO while the goat stays fit and in the game he is going to come out on top......

Quit calling michael Mick ya ....... everytime ya do it I think I've said something!!!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mick D @ Apr 15 2010, 11:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Quit calling michael Mick ya ....... everytime ya do it I think I've said something!!!
i nearly made that mistake the other day Your mick he's mike

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (halfpint @ Apr 14 2010, 06:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>A marathon runner won't train each week for 26miles to get his fitness up and prepare for the race he will do over the miles.

Oh and the tyre thing he said - i know bugger all about the tyres. If he is saying he didn't push hard and this resulted in him coming off. Is it becasue as he doesn't push hard he doesn't lean into the bike as much his weight isn't over the front tyre as much (more the back tyre) therefore the tyre isn't sticking to the floor more like its hovering so in effect if he took the bend slightly too wide into the dust the tyre didn't have owt to grip on so it threw him off. But having said that i thought the ducati bike was heavier than the others and would have thought he would have a little more grip (and less tyre at the end of the race). Or is it cause of the force of the speed he is going it doesn't matter if the bike is heavy or not. I have not a clue what i'm asking so can some one explain to me why not pushing a bike can lead to somsort of tyre failure please

Well the time these guys have to set the bike up is different prep time that a marathon runner has avaliable to arrive in peak performance. A marathon runners prep will be aimed to make it to the start line in peak form. To do that they inevitably need to operate under the same peramiters in practice as they do in a race, the difference is they have x amount of months.

If Case had a 3 hour session or whatever and unlimited rubber then he may go out there and run 15 laps or whatever, however they have 1 hour (i think) and they need to still arrive at that optimum on the start line. They clearly feel to arrive at that optimum they will achieve it by varying set up, trying as many different things etc... the flip side is what if they decided to do a 15 lap stint and it meant that they could try 2 less things. ie they would not ahve the time to try a further 2 geometery set ups, swing arm settings, engine maps or whatever. What call would you make?

Lets say your Girusechi spelling?? (Suppos replament), would you decide that you require Casey, who has achieved what he has on your bike to date, to do an extra 10 laps on a stint to prepare for the race, or would you say, im going to rely in your talent/ability to run the race and lets devote this time to trying things to get the bike as easy/fast to ride as possible?

And as Casey you are always going to back your talent, im sure you would rather get the bike to an optimum set up than have it at 80% but have had more time to realise its only at 80%.

All that said mDub is also correct/resonable in his assesment that you would think it could not hurt to run a sim once in a while, its just the decision is not as easy for the team to sacrifice what they would have to sacrifice to let him run so many laps in a row.

I suppose the easiest way to explain not pushing hard/loading the front tyrer and loosing it is that the bike is set up to run in a certain peramiter, its spring/damp rate is set and so forth. So Casey was running in that, he found that with the full tank, track temp etc... he was having moments on the front end, presumably issues that had not occurred in practice. Even though it was still wihtin the 5 lap window he was running in practice, so you have to assume that it was a change in environment and in turn rider comfort/confidence. so he decided to err on the side of caution and back off, sector times were still great as fuel was burning off and sector 1 was a pretty simple sector. When Casey refers to backing off its not rolling out of it and only going 75%, its going from say 95% (race pace) to 90%, so its till pretty close to the edge of adhesion and lean angle, its probably one tenth earlier on the breaks, one tenth later on the gas etc...

But it was enough for the bike not to be in its window of operation, the tyre was not being stimulated enough and in turn would not yield the grip he required to make the corner.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MdubSTYLIE @ Apr 14 2010, 10:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Good stuff as usual, I have always amired the way you see around my ........ and have a good debate with me. Your a good man is200!


cheers Mdub, likewise mate its good to be able to discuss different points of view without people getting offended or aggressive.