Stoner critical of Hayden

chopperman · Jun 20, 2011

michaelm said:
I don't have any problem with any of the other incidents including the checa one; I don't think stoner's responses as opposed to that which provoked him had any significant safety implications (which the hayden one may not have had either), and rude gestures hardly count in comparison to the serious safety issue which stoner not only clearly believes is involved but actually is involved, and concerning which he claims to have exhausted all other channels which I also believe.

I have a problem with the nicky incident as reported for 2 reasons, firstly because he apparently hazed/blocked nicky; even for a couple of corners this takes it further than a rude gesture and too far. The other issue is because it is nicky, whom as far as I know has always shown respect to stoner and as a former world champion (actually the same number of world championships as stoner as it stands) deserves the same respect as stoner clearly thinks is his due. Also as far as I am aware hayden has not been a serial offender (in stoner's terms rather than anyone else's for those who wrongly don't believe this is a significant safety issue) and in view of their past association is someone stoner could have dealt with by a quiet word in the pits, and someone towards whom even an impolite gesture would have deserved condemnation.

I have no problem at all where rossi and stoner are concerned, even if rossi had 25 world championships, mutual disrespect where from my point of view rossi has at the very least been a major contributor having been ongoing for some years, and incidents where safety has not been merely a theoretical concern having occurred in which stoner has not been the offender. Their contretemps also really annoy talpa and those like him which is a bonus

.

Mike, i got to say mate that im astounded by your first sentence. To consider and rightly so cruising on the race line dangerous, but then go on to say kicking someone's bike while in motion or jabbing someone in the back while doing 100kpm is not dangerous.

michaelm · Jun 20, 2011

chopperman said:
Mike, i got to say mate that im astounded by your first sentence. To consider and rightly so cruising on the race line dangerous, but then go on to say kicking someone's bike while in motion or jabbing someone in the back while doing 100kpm is not dangerous.

They were essentially still gestures, particularly the checa episode, rather than anything involving actual risk, and the rdp incident particularly involved a rather significant provocation. However you aren't allowed to touch riders in any fashion, safely or not, and he was duly and correctly fined for it and should never deliberately contact another rider in anger in any fashion again.

You are correct that he doesn't need love, and I don't believe he seeks it, and the condemnation if not outright denial, rather than recognition, that he received in 2007 imo is at the root of his "bad attitude" as you see it in general, which in any case does not make the slow on the racing line thing not a safety issue. He dose clearly want respect for, or at least recognition of, his achievements and talent though, and hence it is impossible to defend him for disrespecting nicky who is similarly a world champion.

chopperman · Jun 20, 2011

michaelm said:
They were essentially still gestures, particulalry the checa episode, rather than anything involving actual risk, and the rdp incident particularly involved a rather significant provocation. However you aren't allowed to touch riders in any fashion, safely or not, and he was duly and correctly fined for it and should never deliberately contact another rider in anger in any fashion again.

You are correct that he doesn't need love, and I don't believe he seeks it, and the condemnation if not outright denial, rather than recognition, that he received in 2007 imo is at the root of his "bad attitude" as you see it in general, which in any case does not make the slow on the racing line thing not a safety issue. He dose clearly want respect for, or at least recognition of, his achievements and talent though, and hence it is impossible to defend him for disrespecting nicky who is similarly a world champion.

Maybe we can agree casey is hugely talented (hard to deny that after watching him at silverstone) but for whatever reason unprofessional and childish.

michaelm · Jun 20, 2011

chopperman said:
Maybe we can agree casey is hugely talented (hard to deny that after watching him at silverstone) but for whatever reason unprofessional and childish.

Certainly buzzing nicky as he reportedly did is childish.

I believe when it comes to real safety issues, and behaviour when it counts in races, as well as behaviour towards his teams/employers (not denigrating them while under contract etc), stoner is among the most professional. If he was really unprofessional honda probably wouldn't have signed him despite his talent, which has perhaps become clearer since that signing anyway.

I don't think we want to get into the "mind games", long-term personal feuds," cursing" of other riders, criticism of his own teams etc sometimes indulged in by the very greatest

, for which I don't condemn valentino btw, being part of his whole persona and the entertainment in general, and criticism of yamaha for instance in 2007 having positive effects even for yamaha.

320IDave · Jun 20, 2011

OK, from a huge CS fan:

This thing about nicky and the Randy punch were both over the top, i can't deny it.

BUT, i can understand what goes through Casey's mind, specially this season all starting on a Rainy day at Jerez de la frontera. CS knew he had the edge this time around but some italian loco, just deliberatly blew his race and made his preciouss advandgte witch he had no intentions to abandon, drain with the rain water down the gutter only to watch how the cheif's aided (patted) Rossi and left him pushing on his own up the wet hill.

After that he's had a variety of unconfortable encounters during practise with various riders, everytime reacting in an angrier way up until this Nicky thing.

He's on a rage and i guess only time will cool him down, i'm just glad this rage translates into lightning fast (and bloody spectacular) riding wiith no crashes up to date.

chopperman · Jun 20, 2011

320IDave said:
OK, from a huge CS fan:

This thing about nicky and the Randy punch were both over the top, i can't deny it.

BUT, i can understand what goes through Casey's mind, specially this season all starting on a Rainy day at Jerez de la frontera. CS knew he had the edge this time around but some italian loco, just deliberatly blew his race and made his preciouss advandgte witch he had no intentions to abandon, drain with the rain water down the gutter only to watch how the cheif's aided (patted) Rossi and left him pushing on his own up the wet hill.

After that he's had a variety of unconfortable encounters during practise with various riders, everytime reacting in an angrier way up until this Nicky thing.

He's on a rage and i guess only time will cool him down, i'm just glad this rage translates into lightning fast (and bloody spectacular) riding wiith no crashes up to date.

yeah yeah yeah, we all get it. Yet another new member on a anti rossi cruisade. How original

320IDave · Jun 20, 2011

chopperman said:
yeah yeah yeah, we all get it. Yet another new member on a anti rossi cruisade. How original

You highlight the Rossi comment but you do not seem to bother seeing i'm being fair with your cause.

Maybe if i said Valentino Rossi instead of italian loco you wouldn'tr be offended? sorry then.

CS rage started that day, he's allways been edgy in practise but he's never lost it like he's been doing it as of late. And i don't blame him for hating Rossi, he earned the right to do so ages ago. just needs to calm down though.

michaelm · Jun 20, 2011

320IDave said:
OK, from a huge CS fan:

This thing about nicky and the Randy punch were both over the top, i can't deny it.

BUT, i can understand what goes through Casey's mind, specially this season all starting on a Rainy day at Jerez de la frontera. CS knew he had the edge this time around but some italian loco, just deliberatly blew his race and made his preciouss advandgte witch he had no intentions to abandon, drain with the rain water down the gutter only to watch how the cheif's aided (patted) Rossi and left him pushing on his own up the wet hill.

After that he's had a variety of unconfortable encounters during practise with various riders, everytime reacting in an angrier way up until this Nicky thing.

He's on a rage and i guess only time will cool him down, i'm just glad this rage translates into lightning fast (and bloody spectacular) riding wiith no crashes up to date.

You can defend him on the grounds that the loitering on the race-line thing is a serious safety issue (which it is and which seems to have been ignored by his detractors in this discussion) and that there is inconsistency in him being fined for accidentally doing what sounds very similar to what nicky did, when he was a nobody in 2006, and no-one subsequently being sanctioned for the same behaviour, although he is not a nobody now and could possibly let go of the injustice part of his attitude if that is still influential, and I think he has been justified in being angry on several occasions including with the jerez thing and randy thing, but rage due to minor infractions is hard to justify whether or not it doesn't affect or improves his riding.

320IDave · Jun 20, 2011

michaelm said:
You can defend him on the grounds that the loitering on the race-line thing is a serious safety issue (which it is and which seems to have been ignored by his detractors in this discussion) and that there is inconsistency in him being fined for accidentally doing what sounds very similar to what nicky did, when he was a nobody in 2006 and no-one subsequently being sanctioned for the same behaviour, although he is not a nobody now and could possibly let go of the injustice part of his attitude if that is still influential, and I think he has been justified in being angry on several occasions including with the jerez thing and randy thing, but rage due to minor infractions is hard to justify whether or not it doesn't affect or improves his riding.

This i agree. I never said what he's doing was right nor excusable. I only said i understand what is going through his mind.

michaelm · Jun 20, 2011

320IDave said:
BUT, i can understand what goes through Casey's mind, specially this season all starting on a Rainy day at Jerez de la frontera. CS knew he had the edge this time around but some italian loco, just deliberatly blew his race and made his preciouss advandgte witch he had no intentions to abandon, drain with the rain water down the gutter only to watch how the cheif's aided (patted) Rossi and left him pushing on his own up the wet hill.

I think it goes back further to the lack of recognition, in fact vilification, he copped after winning the 2007 championship at a time when he was being humble as you would know if you are australian and read the local press, and compounded by the laguna seca thing when from his point of view he copped huge criticism when valentino made an out of control move that nearly took him out ; that he copped huge criticism when valentino not even arguably made an uncontrolled move which actually did take him out at jerez this year I am sure confimed his world view

.

All this doesn't justify him buzzing nicky now, in what sounds like a childish fashion as roger says, and even as a major fan I think he could do with reining things in a little particularly given his current position; it is bad karma apart from anything else.

Talpa · Jun 20, 2011

16 pages Kropo!!

This is testament to the fantastical world of the boner. Comatosed though some may still be, at least others have the intelligence to admit the obvious which has been apparent for years.

It all boils down to:

1) cruising on the racing line is dangerous but is accepted by most as a part of the sport in practice.

2) It is far more dangerous to react in the way that Casey Stoner does regularly to this apparent danger. Which makes him a '....' and a hypocrite, amazingly just like some of his fans

Once again, one is perceived and apparent danger-not deliberately contrived in most cases which has been happening since the dawn of racing, and the other is a deliberate act endangering others. Most level headed people can see the motivation in the latter is much more menacing and needs to be dealt with.

Stoner now has a long list of behavior like this this season alone, when will he be properly reprimanded? Hopefully before he causes a serious incident with his antics.

dwoodhouse · Jun 20, 2011

michaelm said:
I think it goes back further to the lack of recognition, in fact vilification, he copped after winning the 2007 championship at a time when he was being humble as you would know if you are australian and read the local press, and compounded by the laguna seca thing when from his point of view he copped huge criticism when valentino made an out of control move that nearly took him out ; that he copped huge criticism when valentino not even arguably made an uncontrolled move which actually did take him out at jerez this year I am sure confimed his world view

.

All this doesn't justify him buzzing nicky now, in what sounds like a childish fashion as roger says, and even as a major fan I think he could do with reining things in a little particularly given his current position; it is bad karma apart from anything else.

So you are effectively saying that he is attention seeking and acting up because he isn't getting the attention he wants?

Talpa · Jun 20, 2011

woody996 said:
So you are effectively saying that he is attention seeking and acting up because he isn't getting the attention he wants?

Time to call 'The Super Nanny!'

Fred Gassit · Jun 20, 2011

I know the speeds ( and therefore closing speeds) are vastly different, but being at the level of skill that they are.........

Wouldn't he have seen that Hayden was going alot slower than him ? I haven't seen the footage, and what I am asking clearly doesn't apply to the DePuniet incident (although I would have thought upon exiting the corner he also would have seen that Randy was not proceeding at the pace he was, and taken a less aggresive stance/reaction to the issue......didn't he already have a pole, or a front row time in the bank when he came up on Randy?..anyway....moot point) but, couldn't he have slowed down, missed Hyden (as he did), and then gone and had a friendly chat to Nicky in private ? you know, be grown up about it.

Failing that, take it up with race control ?

To get mucked up, and then play ... for tat seems rather childish.

I seem to think he just gets the ..... at having his lap mucked up.

Perhaps he should plan around slower riders, and try to time his runs more to his advantage........... In saying that, I know it's a monumental task, but given his form, he seems to only need to do an out lap, fast one, and an in lap, compared to others who spend much more time circulating to get the same result.

At the end of the day there will always be others on the track, and people being people, somewhat unpredictable in their movements/speed.

I'm positive this an old problem, and sure as ...., Hayden (as well as everyother rider/racer in the world) has gone back to the garage, thrown and kicked his helmet over some numptie wrecking what he's sure would have been a "pole" time..........might have even exchanged unpleasanties in the confines of a garage or motorhome (as in the Toesland incident).

Being a prima-donna about it is unbecoming, and does not help him gain the recognition that he is after.

Just makes people think "......".........and gives them excuses to have a shot at him.

Will this topic make 20 pages ?

ScottP · Jun 20, 2011

chopperman said:
Maybe we can agree casey is hugely talented (hard to deny that after watching him at silverstone) but for whatever reason unprofessional and childish.

chopper casey is not dangerous even at the speed that he chopped rdp hes just trying to make a point and outline his line which is 'dont mess with me' cauz im going to bite you...and he has all the reasons to so..hes the fastest and the most talented and he sets the rules from now on!!!

didnt all the champs before do this

??? well anyway he has all the rights to do so cauz the rest are slower than him!!!

Bunyip · Jun 21, 2011

Scotty said:
chopper casey is not dangerous even at the speed that he chopped rdp hes just trying to make a point and outline his line which is 'dont mess with me' cauz im going to bite you...and he has all the reasons to so..hes the fastest and the most talented and he sets the rules from now on!!!

didnt all the champs before do this

??? well anyway he has all the rights to do so cauz the rest are slower than him!!!

Scotty, this line in reasoning doesn,t really help a lot..............................................

michaelm · Jun 21, 2011

woody996 said:
So you are effectively saying that he is attention seeking and acting up because he isn't getting the attention he wants?

Unexpectedly insubstantial from you woody.To go along with jumkie's admonitions of bunyip, this tactic in debate is known as the "straw man " approach, ie pararaphrasing my argument to what you would like it to be to facilitate your own. I am not saying that at all, I am saying that it was widely not acknowledged that stoner actually won the 2007 world championship and largely on his own merit cf those still posting that he had an unfair bike advantage then and has again now (talpa knows who I mean

).

michaelm · Jun 21, 2011

Fred Gassit said:
I know the speeds ( and therefore closing speeds) are vastly different, but being at the level of skill that they are.........

Wouldn't he have seen that Hayden was going alot slower than him ? I haven't seen the footage, and what I am asking clearly doesn't apply to the DePuniet incident (although I would have thought upon exiting the corner he also would have seen that Randy was not proceeding at the pace he was, and taken a less aggresive stance/reaction to the issue......didn't he already have a pole, or a front row time in the bank when he came up on Randy?..anyway....moot point) but, couldn't he have slowed down, missed Hyden (as he did), and then gone and had a friendly chat to Nicky in private ? you know, be grown up about it.

Failing that, take it up with race control ?

To get mucked up, and then play ... for tat seems rather childish.

I seem to think he just gets the ..... at having his lap mucked up.

Perhaps he should plan around slower riders, and try to time his runs more to his advantage........... In saying that, I know it's a monumental task, but given his form, he seems to only need to do an out lap, fast one, and an in lap, compared to others who spend much more time circulating to get the same result.

At the end of the day there will always be others on the track, and people being people, somewhat unpredictable in their movements/speed.

I'm positive this an old problem, and sure as ...., Hayden (as well as everyother rider/racer in the world) has gone back to the garage, thrown and kicked his helmet over some numptie wrecking what he's sure would have been a "pole" time..........might have even exchanged unpleasanties in the confines of a garage or motorhome (as in the Toesland incident).

Being a prima-donna about it is unbecoming, and does not help him gain the recognition that he is after.

Just makes people think "......".........and gives them excuses to have a shot at him.

Will this topic make 20 pages ?

It is old ground, but with the randy incident randy was with another rider, I think bautista, and moved across the track at the last minute whilst the other rider stayed put which left little room between casey and a concrete wall, and this was near the exit of a blind corner; I have seen the video of that incident but as you know it is hard from video footage to get an impression both of the speed and the perspective of the riders. Stoner contends that he has repeatedly taken this up through all the usual channels including race control and the riders' safety committee, but he appears to remain the last rider to have been fined for the offence (in 2006 for accidentally blocking dani pedrosa).

I as I have said from my first post in this thread haven't seen the hayden incident either but from what is said by reliable sources your argument concerning that incident is correct, and stoner's reaction was over some length in time and distance.

michaelm · Jun 21, 2011

Talpa said:
1) cruising on the racing line is dangerous but is accepted by most as a part of the sport in practice.

2) It is far more dangerous to react in the way that Casey Stoner does regularly to this apparent danger. Which makes him a '....' and a hypocrite, amazingly just like some of his fans

Once again, one is perceived and apparent danger-not deliberately contrived in most cases which has been happening since the dawn of racing, and the other is a deliberate act endangering others. Most level headed people can see the motivation in the latter is much more menacing and needs to be dealt with.

Amazing. So waving trackside is more dangerous than actually losing your bike in front of another rider in a race and likely only avoiding being run over by evasive action by the following rider after a move which whilst deserving the benefit of the doubt given the offending rider's identity, apology and explanation could under the kindest interpretation be called optimistic in the conditions.

Repetitive statements aren't any more true on subsequent occasions than they were intially talpa, as demonstrated by all your previous animadversions about stoner's riding deficiencies, unfair advantages, and mental destruction by valentino. I am still waiting for your exposition of a behaviour particularly associated with bazaars and exhibited by casey stoner warranting you using the term bazaar in a perjorative sense when accusing him of bazaar behaviour. When engaging in cod psychology it is probably a good idea to at least get your terminology/spelling correct.

#22 · Jun 21, 2011

320IDave said:
BUT, i can understand what goes through Casey's mind, specially this season all starting on a Rainy day at Jerez de la frontera. CS knew he had the edge this time around but some italian loco, just deliberatly blew his race and made his preciouss advandgte witch he had no intentions to abandon, drain with the rain water down the gutter only to watch how the cheif's aided (patted) Rossi and left him pushing on his own up the wet hill.

........, I'm not Rossi's biggest fan but no-one goes out there to deliberately blow another riders race. In the words of the late great Ayrton Senna "We are racing, we are competing to win and if you don't go for a gap that exists, you are no longer a racing driver" Rossi saw a gap (either because he misjudged his braking point or saw the opportunity) and went for it to pass Stoner, NOT to take him out.

Its because of the raft of opinionated one track minded 'Fans' post on here that I hardly visit anymore. In the olden days you could have a sensible discussion with the likes of Rog, Jumkie, Krop and Pidg to name a few but now its full of armchair experts pushing their own opinions as facts. How many of you have actually RACED? I don't mean a traffic light GP either, but actually raced in any competitive championship? You have no idea of the physical and mental effort that goes into driving a machine on the edge against the best competitors let alone the preparation that goes into it, a world most of you can't imagine where the edge between success and massive failure is so fine most could not even see.

Kropotkin said:
15 ....... pages.

Amen brother

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