I didn,t say he was ungracious. I have already given my explanation. I think both are partially right and both are partially wrong.
Whilst I also do respect Jumkies observations, I think he is unable to view incidents involving Hayden with total impartiality. I sometimes get the feeling that he sees his role as Nickys defender (which is fine to some degree), which leads to " me and Nicky against the world" seige mentality. Does he find any faults in Hayden? I see faults in Stoner and have freely agreed with certain criticisms of him. He does set very high standards for himself and his fellow riders, and this is what gets him into trouble. I think it is the perfectionism in him that leads to his greatest strength and his greatest weakness. Just as some great world leaders are alpha males with infidelity (.......) as a part of their personality, I take this as part of the package that also delivers great things when it comes to the big picture.
For Jumkie: if Stoners obsession with track safety, whilst leading to excessive reactions, were to lead to the avoidance of any serious injury or even death, then we would say that perhaps it was a "necessary evil" and give him a bit of credit for his persistent and pedantic attitude towards rider etiquette.
telling a guy to take charge in development is a compliment. basically saying, stop letting rossi have all his own way. its your bike too and you should have equal if not more input to the bike since youve been on it now for 3 years.... bunch of fucken whingers here
All fair comment. My view is unsurprisingly not very different from yours. After this latest incident if he genuinely believes in this as a safety issue, which it is and which I am sure he does, he should continue to prosecute his case but perhaps endeavour to be a little more proportionate in his approach and responses. I think he could let go of the possible part of his attitude relating to the unfairness of him being penalised for being accidentally guilty of such an offence when he was a nobody in 2006
Well yes it may appear to be constructive critisism but looking form the outside and telling a competitor what their problem is has never been a wise thing to do, and is rarely well recieved. In fact more often than not the comment is made a a kind of dig at either the rider or team in question. You can give Casey the benefit of the doubt if you want but perhaps he wasn't wise to make this comment, especially considering his displeasure when both Rossi and JB chimed in about Ducati's problems last year.
It's taken this thread achieving this point of irrelevance for you to feel this way ?
Lets put aside all the pontificating, posturing and proffesions of our undying love for particular riders and take a history lesson shall we.
They are all a bunch of sooks nowdays. politics, crying over who did what....it's/they're dangerous.blah, blah blah.
Please note the exceptionaly dangerous passing moves at around the two minute mark onward, on a track that more than one rider (one was more vocal than others) have decreed to be so slippery that in their opinion races should just not be held there.
I would also like to ask you take your memories back to the post race interviews ( not shown) and the distinct lack of tears, wailing and general gnashing of teeth.
If you have the intestinal fortitude to watch.
They're going faster now, so it's more dangerous, I hear you say ??......please also take note of the lack of traction control and other various electronic aids that make the faster lap times these days possible. Not to mention the savage nature of the power delivery, the ratio of bike mass to HP delivered ect ect ect.
comparisons between anything other than the lack of crying over passing moves is null and void.....it all balances out.
Real, non crying riders.
Also note that there are many womens magazines on sale that delve into important debates about what Brangellina are doing with their family, who's dating who and why they shouldn't/who they should be with ect,ect,ect.
...........they are all a buch of little cry babies............much wailing and gnashing of teeth at the slightest sense of injustice.
Ride the bikes girls.
Lets put aside all the pontificating, posturing and proffesions of our undying love for particular riders and take a history lesson shall we.
They are all a bunch of sooks nowdays. politics, crying over who did what....it's/they're dangerous.blah, blah blah.
Please note the exceptionaly dangerous passing moves at around the two minute mark onward, on a track that more than one rider (one was more vocal than others) have decreed to be so slippery that in their opinion races should just not be held there.
I would also like to ask you take your memories back to the post race interviews ( not shown) and the distinct lack of tears, wailing and general gnashing of teeth.
If you have the intestinal fortitude to watch.
They're going faster now, so it's more dangerous, I hear you say ??......please also take note of the lack of traction control and other various electronic aids that make the faster lap times these days possible. Not to mention the savage nature of the power delivery, the ratio of bike mass to HP delivered ect ect ect.
comparisons between anything other than the lack of crying over passing moves is null and void.....it all balances out.
Real, non crying riders.
Also note that there are many womens magazines on sale that delve into important debates about what Brangellina are doing with their family, who's dating who and why they shouldn't/who they should be with ect,ect,ect.
...........they are all a buch of little cry babies............much wailing and gnashing of teeth at the slightest sense of injustice.
Ride the bikes girls.
Imagine the tears these days if someone put this move on.....jeez......there'd be calls for blood..."He's crazy..dangerous, should be banned.........Simoncelli is being pilloried for much less.
...and all that was said afterwards by the bloke who came second was ..." I thought a 747 was landing next to me."
great move, no crying
No wonder racing is getting processional.
...and all that was said afterwards by the bloke who came second was ..." I thought a 747 was landing next to me."
great move, no crying
No wonder racing is getting processional.
Joined Apr 2008
7K Posts | 3K+
Out of Nowhere
[media]http://youtu.be/RtXI6Tjeiuc[/media]
Posted this about a year ago. Perhaps my favourite Schwantz move ever. Look at him closing on Rainey first time into the Melbourne loop and how late he brakes. You don't pass on the outside there, more to the point you don't pass Wayne Rainey around the outside. Wonderful!
Yeah. One of the great moves, for all those reasons. That first link I put up (two posts before yours) is a 7 minute highlight of that 91 race. Remember the move at the bottom of the craner curves ? tops.
the whole race was tops.
Anyway, back then, if someone got stiffed, the other person sucked it up, and gave back as good as they got.
Without being malicious, running people off, crying or moaning.
Remeber Schwantz slamming the door shut on Rainey at Suzuka 91 ?.......wasn't a nice move either!!!.........any whinging after the race ( which KS won) by Rainey......no..........the next time at the chicane he was smart enough to know Schwantz would no doubt do it again, better to hang back a bit, and see if he could stitch him up elsewhere.
couldn't....didn't moan.
Nowdays there would complaints, and possible fines/sanctions.
Not just Schwantz and Rainey either.
It's getting to the point where you almost need approval from some riders to be on the track at the same time as them, or put a pass on.
Where was that race when Rossi and Lorenzo went at it ? Japanese GP ?
Credit to Lorenzo for not moaning.
That was some good, hard racing. fairings rubbing, putting bikes into gaps that were only half there.
Thoroughly enjoyable viewing spectacle............and no post race detraction from the great show either.
tops.
the whole race was tops.
Anyway, back then, if someone got stiffed, the other person sucked it up, and gave back as good as they got.
Without being malicious, running people off, crying or moaning.
Remeber Schwantz slamming the door shut on Rainey at Suzuka 91 ?.......wasn't a nice move either!!!.........any whinging after the race ( which KS won) by Rainey......no..........the next time at the chicane he was smart enough to know Schwantz would no doubt do it again, better to hang back a bit, and see if he could stitch him up elsewhere.
couldn't....didn't moan.
Nowdays there would complaints, and possible fines/sanctions.
Not just Schwantz and Rainey either.
It's getting to the point where you almost need approval from some riders to be on the track at the same time as them, or put a pass on.
Where was that race when Rossi and Lorenzo went at it ? Japanese GP ?
Credit to Lorenzo for not moaning.
That was some good, hard racing. fairings rubbing, putting bikes into gaps that were only half there.
Thoroughly enjoyable viewing spectacle............and no post race detraction from the great show either.
tops.
Joined Jun 2007
10K Posts | 1K+
Norah Head
At least back then you had two guys trying like Stoner does
You forget how slow they were compared to today though
You forget how slow they were compared to today though
true.
though my point is, any of those moves put on nowdays would not be tolerated.
by most of 'em.
and that is my whole point.
Shut up, ride the bike, and toughen up.
As far as I'm concerned............what bloody incident ????? what the hell are they crapping on about ?? ( the riders that is)
Phillip Island, Stoner.1:28;777
...............Doohan, 1998, 1:33;162
Yep.......roughly four seconds........ I still reckon the ability to dial in electronics to determine the amout of wheelspin ect, plus the other aids....would have to add up to 1,........maybe 2.......but more like 1 second a lap vs the analogue method.....ie..brain is connected to the wrist,wrist is connected to throttle is connected to carby is connected to engine is conected to back wheel.
4 seconds in nearly 14 years.....you'd wanna hope so, wouldn't ya ?
Look at the IOM......M Hailwood 1978, average lap speed of 111 MPH on that crappy old Ducati.......now they're up to what....130-odd MPH.....19 -ish MPH in 30 -odd years....do you compare the rider, or the advance in technology ? (honest question/staement, not sarcasm........if you start debating the riders, it's all speculative....and we end up with another 14 pages of to and fro opinions....pointless.........at least with the IOM, the riders don't sook........ they are at least of similar ilk/decorum/bravery.It's probably less of a pointless argument to debate how a race between Hailwood and Cam Donald would turn out, than who is in the right/wrong over this little temper tantrum about "somebody was on my race track" type thing.....not to bash on Stoner other than this is the topic heading...........there are plenty of other equally childish instances occuring between other riders.)
though my point is, any of those moves put on nowdays would not be tolerated.
by most of 'em.
and that is my whole point.
Shut up, ride the bike, and toughen up.
As far as I'm concerned............what bloody incident ????? what the hell are they crapping on about ?? ( the riders that is)
Phillip Island, Stoner.1:28;777
...............Doohan, 1998, 1:33;162
Yep.......roughly four seconds........ I still reckon the ability to dial in electronics to determine the amout of wheelspin ect, plus the other aids....would have to add up to 1,........maybe 2.......but more like 1 second a lap vs the analogue method.....ie..brain is connected to the wrist,wrist is connected to throttle is connected to carby is connected to engine is conected to back wheel.
4 seconds in nearly 14 years.....you'd wanna hope so, wouldn't ya ?
Look at the IOM......M Hailwood 1978, average lap speed of 111 MPH on that crappy old Ducati.......now they're up to what....130-odd MPH.....19 -ish MPH in 30 -odd years....do you compare the rider, or the advance in technology ? (honest question/staement, not sarcasm........if you start debating the riders, it's all speculative....and we end up with another 14 pages of to and fro opinions....pointless.........at least with the IOM, the riders don't sook........ they are at least of similar ilk/decorum/bravery.It's probably less of a pointless argument to debate how a race between Hailwood and Cam Donald would turn out, than who is in the right/wrong over this little temper tantrum about "somebody was on my race track" type thing.....not to bash on Stoner other than this is the topic heading...........there are plenty of other equally childish instances occuring between other riders.)
Joined Oct 2007
4K Posts | 744+
Tuscany, Italy
So Stoner complained about Nicky this time? Wow, who cares. I feel sorry for Jum who seem to be devastated, but this is just Stoner's way of letting steam out -- he lashes out at other riders. Not the most elegant way of coping with pressure, but that's him. For me, what matters is Stoner's (fantastic) riding, not his typical and irrational outbursts. Like him or not he's truly great, the only rider after Doohan and Rossi with the potential of winning multiple championships. That's what matters about Casey Stoner. Nicky should try to answer on the track, if he can and the Ducati allows.
Racing is processional mainly because of the formula and electronics imo, and hence the fault of the msma, and ultimately FIM for ceding control of the sport to the msma and a bunch of merchant bankers.
The top riders of any era are just that, the top riders, and I expect the current top riders would be very competitive with the riders you mention of whom I was also a fan, and race in whatever way was required to be so. Out of control rather than hard passes would also likely attract ire in any era, not that I disagree with you about the simoncelli pass or sanction, and that this is unlikely to be contributory to what racing there remains. Mick doohan arguably the toughest of all as we have discussed also complained all the time.
I can't think of a single rider at this level who has managed to deal with pressure elegantly, perhaps Nicky Hayden in 2006, although there was little elegance to his reaction at Portugal 2006. Of course they all feel the stress sometimes and being like they need to be in this kind of competition, it is understandable that Stoner, Rossi, Lorenzo and all the others are prone to outbursts when it all gets the better of them.
Agree ..........one exeception ( I'm not 100% sure though).............Rainey.
Gentleman.........immensly driven, but a quiet acheiver.
That's not to say I haven't seen an angry look on his face........
Gentleman.........immensly driven, but a quiet acheiver.
That's not to say I haven't seen an angry look on his face........
Joined Oct 2006
25K Posts | 4K+
Your Mom's House
Has Jumkie put the wind up you?
Interesting, you'v acted all the ........ that Stoner's outburst displayed. (Ad Hominem) You've deployed every possible fallacy on this thread. Bunny, with very little thought except to say that when Hayden said "good things happen to good people" you got "offended" and equated it to Stoner's thoughtless childlike outburst. Lame. Why you questioning Michaelm, I suppose you'd like him to be fused to your lack of logic too? Is it because he hasn't blindedly defended Stoner's comments by equating it to common statement of relief when Hayden won his title? Your appeal to authority (another fallacy), even Kropo agreed Stoner was being a ..... (Though he added his take on what he "really meant"...). Stoner had a .... take, 14 pages later (as Kropo protests) is a result of defenders of his comments taking two forms: people desperate to convince us what he 'actually said' wasn't what he 'actually' meant (not sure how this is a good thing, as adults we usually are expected to say what we mean), which is the point, don't say stupid .... in public as it make you look like a .... if its an attack; and 2, what's the problem, all riders are dicks (which I guess makes his comments ok?)--genius reasoning folks. Continue defending it as 'stoner being stoner', based on your poor reasoning, its obvious you don't understand why that is uncomplimentary. Stoner made a declarative statement, its you crusading mindlessly that its ok or tantamount to something you've got zero support (equating it as offensive to Nicky's relief when he won the title saying "good things happen to good people", hahaha that sure make you look stupid! Take a poll Bunny, find out how many people were offended by that, or would equate it to Stoner accusing people in every corner out to get him--you sound as paranoid as him) Shall I look up quotes from Rossi you've .... all over? Would you like to go back and retract your statements every time he said something unbecoming about Stoner? You know why Boppers get so much ....? Because they can never distinguish between right wrong myth or reality logic or fallacy. They blindly worship. You have demonstrated that here by trying to gloss over what clearly was a ........ childish verbal outburst. I've never accused Stoner of being a whiner, never, my point here has been consistent, that his lashing out was uncalled for and had the emotional equal of a 13 year old girl. That's what you are defending. You've defended Stone's comments as oh its ok, not that bad. Sure, you've mildly covered your bases, but its a tactic to qualify it to advance your own mindless agenda. Bunyip, I wouldn't be arguing with the Bopper, you're no better or you're mind has taken a vacation on this thread.
You haven,t read closely. I agreed Casey overreacted...............
..................... but how do you excuse Nicky killing Caseys dog?
ps : Just because I disagree with you, you categorise me as a bopper-lookalike.
Very unfair and unwarranted. I only use facts. Its just that you want all of us to condemn Casey in the way that you do.
Just so as to make yourself clear, I want you to , without going over the incident and spoken words again, say exactly what your current assessment of Stoner is ; his character, and what it means to you specifically, so that we have a starting point for future discussions. Are you still capable of defending him against unfair criticism and misinformation, as you implied, or will you give the Talpas of this world free reign from now on? Is there a cathartic change within you.
Is there a 15th page of rage within you............
