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That's funny. No apology needed friend, and no offense was taken. You didn't accuse me of "blatantly" misinterpreting your post, did you. hehehe (Joke)
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That's funny. No apology needed friend, and no offense was taken. You didn't accuse me of "blatantly" misinterpreting your post, did you. hehehe (Joke)
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That's funny. No apology needed friend, and no offense was taken. You didn't accuse me of "blatantly" misinterpreting your post, did you. hehehe (Joke)Either way would have been fine Stif. Whatcha drinkin? Maybe I need some of that old chap.
I wonder if we will bump into stoner again this year ,like we did in 08
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Stoner's attitude to this is entirely consistent, if overblown as david is saying. Whilst I am sure having nice laps ruined annoys him and is part of what underlies his attitude, and that his attitude was also partly formed because he got fined for accidentally blocking dani pedrosa's line when he (stoner ) was a nobody in 2006 when no other rider has to my knowledge been fined since, I am sure he genuinely thinks he is on a safety crusade. This is after all what he says when asked as david reports, and he is famous for saying what he thinks.
He also seems to have a scale for such things, with deliberately rather than accidentally being on the race line a worse offence, and riders seldom deliberately dawdle on the racing line in races, perhaps something to do with the rules. In a race if there is something wrong with your bike you immediately have to get off the racing line, and if you continue particularly if dropping oil or debris are blackflagged. I unfortunately (or fortunately depending on pov) don't remember back to when there were enough bikes and/or a sufficient performance differential for bikes to be lapped in this class, but in most forms of motorsport in this circumstance when riders/bikes are merely slow rather than disabled blue flags are waved to require them to get out of the way. I am not aware that practice kilometres per hour are in any way slower or less dangerous than race kmh either.
Not necessarily in your case, but from my biased stoner fan perspective this is mostly about there being few remaining avenues of attack on stoner, as illustrated by hawkdriver construing me pointing out that rossi had said something about being impeded by a slower rider in the warm-up at silverstone as an attack on valentino rather than an example that stoner's concern about the issue is not solitary. I didn't watch the warm-up but I think the incident may have resulted in valentino putting the bike down, which I would have thought rather makes stoner's point.
As far as the clear track thing, it seems pretty obvious now that the ducati needs clear track to be gotten through corners in any way fast, with valentino testifying that the thing just won't turn, so getting to the lead quickly and attempting to skeedaddle was stoner's only winning tactic on that bike, and winning seems to me to be what he is not unreasonably about. Now that he is on a bike that allows for mutiple tactical approaches he is relaxed about not being in the lead early, and sometimes bides his time for at least few laps before making clean, precise and decisive passes, often on corners and against identically equipped riders (seeing these are mainly the ones up with him) rather disproving previous contentions about his ability to pass as he is disproving so many other things.
You just admitted to not seeing any of these incidents? My point is that Stoner is a big hypocrite, to use safety as an excuse to go out and ride like an ........ He blocked and antagonized Hayden for an entire lap because because Hayden didn't get out of his way enough. All this after Casey says he can take multiple lines because the Honda can turn mid corner unlike the Duc. You seem to have the same attitude as him, two wrongs make a right. One safety violation makes it okay to commit another. I don't think it's right and I'll continue to comment on it as long as he keeps on doing it. It's racing, sometimes people are going to be in the way and incidents will happen, the other riders seem to understand this, but I don't see anyone else continually going after after other riders in a dangerous fashion when they get slowed up.
Lots of exaggeration in your post.
Neither Nicky's or Casey's actions were dangerous, regardless of how Stoner described it.
Stoner then got in Nicky's way for a couple of corners. (Hardly an entire lap is it?)
The turning ability of the Ducati is not a reason to be in someone's way on an outlap.
That really is stretching it. Look Hayden got in Stoners way.
But his reaction was way over the top. It was FP3, he wasn't on a pole run or anything.
As I said before he is great to watch ride, but his manners leave a lot to be desired.
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That's funny. No apology needed friend, and no offense was taken. You didn't accuse me of "blatantly" misinterpreting your post, did you. hehehe (Joke)Either way would have been fine Stif. Whatcha drinkin? Maybe I need some of that old chap.
Just some Riesling (German white wine), none of that high percentage window-cleaner you guys were apparently downing last weekend. But I can handle booze about as well as a five year old girl with an empty stomach, so that's more than enough for me.
I am starting to blatantly question the integrity of my sentences though....just typing this post has cost my about 10 minutes.
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My argument is that if Stoner is saying these guys aren't being safe by getting in the way and then doing the same exact thing. Standing guys up mid corner is dangerous.
It seems Nicky who was there would disagree with you about Casey going on for an entire lap. That isn't what the beef is about though.
I agree that the Duc not being able to turn isn't an excuse to be in the way and Nicky said he tried getting out of his way but maybe he didn't enough, so in a way he is apologising for being in his way. Either way yes Nicky got in his way, it happens every practice session and quali, someone is going to be in someone's way. I never used that to excuse Nicky being in his way or that Nicky was on an out lap as an excuse, it happens. My point is Casey is on a bike that he can easily change lines on, according to him, so why not just go round Nicky and not make a big fuss about safety. I get the other thing you're trying to tell me as well which is enough already, and I agree, I'll just STFU now and go on about my business, until the next race
It certainly has provided some interesting paradox's this thread. And Mickm, if you can't see the sarcasm in my fishing trip line-in regards to the ducks woes then I can't help you anymore
I have noted though that you are starting to come around......
The problem with the 'Pro-bone' argument attempting to marginalize this particular incident as something that is unique is 'history', are some really in that much denial? As I, and others have already pointed out, Stoner has a record for this type of behavior that stretches back for years, which is one of the primary reasons as to why this thread is now 13 pages long! Whilst some are only just coming out of there coma in regards to this as on this particular occasion it involved one N Hayden, its actually Nicky's involvement that makes the incident even more crucial in evaluating the bazaar mental state of one Casey Stoner.
As we all know Nicky is one of the best/Nicest guys in the field, with a work ethic unsurpassed and a 'No shortcuts' attitude, mind you so is Hiroshi. Stoner is more the opposite of this with his natural gifts allowing him the luxury of not having to be on track for so long, this is no doubt why Stoner gets increasingly pissed that one of his 'Fast' laps might be ruined by another rider, he doesn't want to be out there too long, even now on the incredible Honda Stoner seems to be out there less than most, its easy when your in front, but as that word again 'History' shows, staying in front is the hard part
Anyhoe, back to the point, the fact that Stoner can act like this towards the likes of Nicky, who as others have pointed out wasn't really doing too much wrong other than not being on Stoners 2-3 second superior pace-only to be baulked and gestured at dangerously by Stoner, means that its only a matter of time before Stoner has a problem with the entire field (which he almost does now anyway)-unless that is, someone can talk some sense into him-which it seems from his well documented history-may be impossible.
Once again, why did Casey not go into the pits afterwards and talk to his former teammate about the incident, why the need to carry on like a '....' and endanger others pointlessly? Surely he knows that Race direction don't take to kindly to his antics by now? Maybe not? The fair and decent, safety conscious, human being that so many of his fans are trying to convince us exists in Casey Stoner certainly would have done the right thing and gone into the pits instead of what ensued? But no, we all know, after Jerez how bad he minces his words with pit confrontations......what is clear in situations like this is the palpable anger written all over his face, which kropo has noted, like that of a pre-pubescent who has just been beaten up in front of a girl he is trying to impress.
What is clear, is that Stoner is using the word 'Safety' as a veil in an attempt to disguise his true state, which is one of disgust at being robbed of another fast lap, nothing to do with safety, just his disturbing obsession. The juxtaposition that undeniably exists here is, he is removing himself from the reality of the situation. I firmly believe that Stoner should be competing in 'Time trial' events, for one day he himself will once again be looking for a tow from a much faster and younger rider-and living this down will be near on impossible!
What I find actually quite sad, and some may find this hard to believe
, is that someone with so much talent-and now success, has time and time again self-inflicted a real distaste for himself publically. Now some may state that this doesn't matter, and that Casey probably doesn't care what anyone thinks, but sorry, this is simply untrue. The nature of Human beings disproves this argument, and like I've said before, it has to have a negative effect on your mindset, and Casey's unhealthy behavior seems to be now snowballing out of control, in the past at least he has offered apologies......now he is primed to receive a nice welcome at Mugello, San Marino, Laguna and Indy.
Lastly, I do also attribute this towing issue, although its mainly confined to one rider, and its increase in occurrence to the nature of the 800's, and its just another feather in the cap for the argument against the current electronics, tech regs and ridiculously limited tyre supply. The massive injury toll this season, and last season, is also surely resonating with the powers that be that the current philosophy is all wrong, is anybody paying attention?
The problem with the 'Pro-bone' argument attempting to marginalize this particular incident as something that is unique is 'history', are some really in that much denial? As I, and others have already pointed out, Stoner has a record for this type of behavior that stretches back for years, which is one of the primary reasons as to why this thread is now 13 pages long! Whilst some are only just coming out of there coma in regards to this as on this particular occasion it involved one N Hayden, its actually Nicky's involvement that makes the incident even more crucial in evaluating the bazaar mental state of one Casey Stoner.
As we all know Nicky is one of the best/Nicest guys in the field, with a work ethic unsurpassed and a 'No shortcuts' attitude, mind you so is Hiroshi. Stoner is more the opposite of this with his natural gifts allowing him the luxury of not having to be on track for so long, this is no doubt why Stoner gets increasingly pissed that one of his 'Fast' laps might be ruined by another rider, he doesn't want to be out there too long, even now on the incredible Honda Stoner seems to be out there less than most, its easy when your in front, but as that word again 'History' shows, staying in front is the hard part
Anyhoe, back to the point, the fact that Stoner can act like this towards the likes of Nicky, who as others have pointed out wasn't really doing too much wrong other than not being on Stoners 2-3 second superior pace-only to be baulked and gestured at dangerously by Stoner, means that its only a matter of time before Stoner has a problem with the entire field (which he almost does now anyway)-unless that is, someone can talk some sense into him-which it seems from his well documented history-may be impossible.
Once again, why did Casey not go into the pits afterwards and talk to his former teammate about the incident, why the need to carry on like a '....' and endanger others pointlessly? Surely he knows that Race direction don't take to kindly to his antics by now? Maybe not? The fair and decent, safety conscious, human being that so many of his fans are trying to convince us exists in Casey Stoner certainly would have done the right thing and gone into the pits instead of what ensued? But no, we all know, after Jerez how bad he minces his words with pit confrontations......what is clear in situations like this is the palpable anger written all over his face, which kropo has noted, like that of a pre-pubescent who has just been beaten up in front of a girl he is trying to impress.
What is clear, is that Stoner is using the word 'Safety' as a veil in an attempt to disguise his true state, which is one of disgust at being robbed of another fast lap, nothing to do with safety, just his disturbing obsession. The juxtaposition that undeniably exists here is, he is removing himself from the reality of the situation. I firmly believe that Stoner should be competing in 'Time trial' events, for one day he himself will once again be looking for a tow from a much faster and younger rider-and living this down will be near on impossible!
What I find actually quite sad, and some may find this hard to believe
Lastly, I do also attribute this towing issue, although its mainly confined to one rider, and its increase in occurrence to the nature of the 800's, and its just another feather in the cap for the argument against the current electronics, tech regs and ridiculously limited tyre supply. The massive injury toll this season, and last season, is also surely resonating with the powers that be that the current philosophy is all wrong, is anybody paying attention?
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Jum - you've replied to every post here except my last post. I feel left out.
Was it just too worthless to comment on? Or was it just so reasonable and rational
that it's acknowledgement would have made the continuation of this thread pointless?
Which is it?
Was it just too worthless to comment on? Or was it just so reasonable and rational
that it's acknowledgement would have made the continuation of this thread pointless?
Which is it?
Jum - you've replied to every post here except my last post. I feel left out.
Was it just too worthless to comment on? Or was it just so reasonable and rational
that it's acknowledgement would have made the continuation of this thread pointless?
Which is it?
Perhaps you're on his ignore list?
All good Jumkie.............(please don,t give a 3 paragraph dissection of the appropriateness and merit of these 3 words
), as you say , the lines between banter, discussion, provocation and enlightenment can be subtle and blurred and difficult to ascertain without the body language clues that Krops has available to him during rider interviews. I feel nothing is to be gained by line by line dissection of various sentences as this process becomes convuluted and possibly not a strength of mine ( as my literary/ artistic/language side is relatively underdeveloped compared with my factual analytical side, being a scientist). I feel that your postcript is either a smokescreen or a let-out clause (that perhaps we should all have)
.
Critical points: I agree Stoner overreacted, but you either don,t acknowledge that or play it down. I do think there are mitigating circumstances though, if you are prepared to listen. Obviously track safety is not only a high priority , but it seems, an obsession with him. That may be a good characteristic to have when viewed from a particular perspective, but less so from others.
Can I give an analogy.........
You have 16 pet dogs and you live on a busy street ( and in this city fences don,t exist). You keep asking your neighbours not to drive too fast , because when they do, they run over and kill one of your dogs. This has been happening for a few years and your dogs keep getting hit and killed. Your best mate Nicky , who lives next door has been careful and not harmed any of your dogs to date. Finally you only have one dog left. One day you come home and you find your last dog has been run over and killed by Nicky. How do you think you are going to behave with Nicky. Are you going to go easy on him? Of course not........."I mean Nicky, you of all people, I can,t believe it...........................shheesh you must have done it deliberately!! " You get crankier with your mates because you DO expect better from them and the shock and disappointment is greater. Can,t you see that???
God-bothering..............any time any sportsman gets up on stage and thanks devine intervention, they are really saying that they were favoured because they were worthy, over the other competitors because they were not as worthy.(The arrogance!)
Just because this happens a lot, doesn,t diminish the offence implied to the vanquished. Theperpertrators don,t realise that it is offensive,only because they never stop to think about what they are saying. Is that any different to Casey? Of course you will say that there was intent to offend, but that is a proposition that you cannot prove and to which I disagree. Krop also disagrees, and he was there to read the body language. I trust his assessment more than yours.
I still enjoy your impassioned posts, even when they lead you astray............
Critical points: I agree Stoner overreacted, but you either don,t acknowledge that or play it down. I do think there are mitigating circumstances though, if you are prepared to listen. Obviously track safety is not only a high priority , but it seems, an obsession with him. That may be a good characteristic to have when viewed from a particular perspective, but less so from others.
Can I give an analogy.........
You have 16 pet dogs and you live on a busy street ( and in this city fences don,t exist). You keep asking your neighbours not to drive too fast , because when they do, they run over and kill one of your dogs. This has been happening for a few years and your dogs keep getting hit and killed. Your best mate Nicky , who lives next door has been careful and not harmed any of your dogs to date. Finally you only have one dog left. One day you come home and you find your last dog has been run over and killed by Nicky. How do you think you are going to behave with Nicky. Are you going to go easy on him? Of course not........."I mean Nicky, you of all people, I can,t believe it...........................shheesh you must have done it deliberately!! " You get crankier with your mates because you DO expect better from them and the shock and disappointment is greater. Can,t you see that???
God-bothering..............any time any sportsman gets up on stage and thanks devine intervention, they are really saying that they were favoured because they were worthy, over the other competitors because they were not as worthy.(The arrogance!)
Just because this happens a lot, doesn,t diminish the offence implied to the vanquished. Theperpertrators don,t realise that it is offensive,only because they never stop to think about what they are saying. Is that any different to Casey? Of course you will say that there was intent to offend, but that is a proposition that you cannot prove and to which I disagree. Krop also disagrees, and he was there to read the body language. I trust his assessment more than yours.
I still enjoy your impassioned posts, even when they lead you astray............
Jum - you've replied to every post here except my last post. I feel left out.
Was it just too worthless to comment on? Or was it just so reasonable and rational
that it's acknowledgement would have made the continuation of this thread pointless?
Which is it?
Well he,s argued with all the reasonable people here, Krop, Michael, me........................he wants to have one friend left.
You seem to have a problem with comprehension as well as argument. I said I didn't see the recent hayden incident, as I have said previously, which I haven't seen replayed anywhere or discussed much elsewhere either, one reason I had assumed it was minor. I have seen most of the others live and not in replay. But whilst I bow to few in terms of fanaticism as a motogp fan , my fanaticism is not such that I will refuse social engagements to watch free practice.
Your argument is again spurious, and your prime motive is fairly clearly to have an excuse to bash stoner, with this being currently your only line of attack. Again, find me an example of any criticism by riders of stoner's riding in a race. The fact remains that both the laguna move and the jerez torpedo, racing incidents or not, were both actually rather than theoretically dangerous.
This doesn't mean stoner wasn't over the top in the recent incident with hayden. The evidence from jumkie (a credible source for me anyway as opposed to some others) which was compelling for me was that nicky was significantly pissed off. If nicky was pissed off then stoner was in the wrong. QED.
You seem to have a problem with comprehension as well as argument. I said I didn't see the recent hayden incident, as I have said previously, which I haven't seen replayed anywhere or discussed much elsewhere either, one reason I had assumed it was minor. I have seen most of the other incidents live and not in replay. But whilst I bow to few in terms of fanaticism as a motogp fan , my fanaticism is not such that I will refuse social engagements to watch free practice.
Your argument is again spurious, and your prime motive is fairly clearly to have an excuse to bash stoner, with this being currently your only viable line of attack. Again, find me an example of any criticism by riders of stoner's riding in a race. The fact remains that both the laguna move and the jerez torpedo, racing incidents or not, were both dangerous while none of stoner's behaviour has been.
This doesn't mean stoner wasn't over the top in the recent incident with hayden. The evidence from jumkie (a credible source for me anyway as opposed to some others) which was compelling for me was that nicky was significantly pissed off. Knowing nicky's character, if he was really pissed off then stoner was in the wrong. QED.
It certainly has provided some interesting paradox's this thread. And Mickm, if you can't see the sarcasm in my fishing trip line-in regards to the ducks woes then I can't help you anymoreI have noted though that you are starting to come around......
The problem with the 'Pro-bone' argument attempting to marginalize this particular incident as something that is unique is 'history', are some really in that much denial? As I, and others have already pointed out, Stoner has a record for this type of behavior that stretches back for years, which is one of the primary reasons as to why this thread is now 13 pages long! Whilst some are only just coming out of there coma in regards to this as on this particular occasion it involved one N Hayden, its actually Nicky's involvement that makes the incident even more crucial in evaluating the bazaar mental state of one Casey Stoner.
As we all know Nicky is one of the best/Nicest guys in the field, with a work ethic unsurpassed and a 'No shortcuts' attitude, mind you so is Hiroshi. Stoner is more the opposite of this with his natural gifts allowing him the luxury of not having to be on track for so long, this is no doubt why Stoner gets increasingly pissed that one of his 'Fast' laps might be ruined by another rider, he doesn't want to be out there too long, even now on the incredible Honda Stoner seems to be out there less than most, its easy when your in front, but as that word again 'History' shows, staying in front is the hard part
Anyhoe, back to the point, the fact that Stoner can act like this towards the likes of Nicky, who as others have pointed out wasn't really doing too much wrong other than not being on Stoners 2-3 second superior pace-only to be baulked and gestured at dangerously by Stoner, means that its only a matter of time before Stoner has a problem with the entire field (which he almost does now anyway)-unless that is, someone can talk some sense into him-which it seems from his well documented history-may be impossible.
Once again, why did Casey not go into the pits afterwards and talk to his former teammate about the incident, why the need to carry on like a '....' and endanger others pointlessly? Surely he knows that Race direction don't take to kindly to his antics by now? Maybe not? The fair and decent, safety conscious, human being that so many of his fans are trying to convince us exists in Casey Stoner certainly would have done the right thing and gone into the pits instead of what ensued? But no, we all know, after Jerez how bad he minces his words with pit confrontations......what is clear in situations like this is the palpable anger written all over his face, which kropo has noted, like that of a pre-pubescent who has just been beaten up in front of a girl he is trying to impress.
What is clear, is that Stoner is using the word 'Safety' as a veil in an attempt to disguise his true state, which is one of disgust at being robbed of another fast lap, nothing to do with safety, just his disturbing obsession. The juxtaposition that undeniably exists here is, he is removing himself from the reality of the situation. I firmly believe that Stoner should be competing in 'Time trial' events, for one day he himself will once again be looking for a tow from a much faster and younger rider-and living this down will be near on impossible!
What I find actually quite sad, and some may find this hard to believe, is that someone with so much talent-and now success, has time and time again self-inflicted a real distaste for himself publically. Now some may state that this doesn't matter, and that Casey probably doesn't care what anyone thinks, but sorry, this is simply untrue. The nature of Human beings disproves this argument, and like I've said before, it has to have a negative effect on your mindset, and Casey's unhealthy behavior seems to be now snowballing out of control, in the past at least he has offered apologies......now he is primed to receive a nice welcome at Mugello, San Marino, Laguna and Indy.
Just to deal with the most egregious among your usual factual errors/web of supposition, none of these incidents as far as I am aware involved riders going at their usual pace which just happened to be 3 seconds less than his ( if stoner is 3 seconds faster than the field then he really is the goat and better than rossi btw). All including the recent hayden incident involved riders being genuinely slow, nicky being so because he was on his out lap though. Being unable to find inconsistency in stoner's actual behaviour, you then proceed to accuse him of hypocisy on the basis of clairvoyance; you apparently have foreknowledge of him seeking tows in the future. Stoner is also not to my knowledge especially notable for frequenting bazaars, particularly now that turkey no longer has a gp.
The rest of your post is cod psychology as is commonly the case with you, and which for reasons which mystify me you appear to think both has some relevance to reality and is of some interest to others.
Have you considered that stoner's attitude, such as it is, is a consequence of the ridiculous and unfounded criticism/ bashing by the likes of you seeking to detract from his meritorious championship and subsequent achievements? The bashing very definitely came first, and its basis has now been proven to be almost entirely erroneous,with much of the disproving done by one valentino rossi, leaving you nothing but attacks on stoner's character/personality, unsurprisingly since argumentum ad hominem is usually a very early tactic for you in any discussion on here.
Should I list the obvious truths which were being promulgated as to why he hadn't really won the championship at a time when stoner was humbly telling the australian press that his success was beyond his wildest dreams and he had hoped for perhaps 5th in the 2007 world championship at best, and wearing t-shirts proclaiming rossi as one of his idols along with the other greats of motogp on the day he clinched the championship?. Off the top of my head these included the 2007 ducati having an obvious, profound and unfair advantage, that any advantage the bike had required no effort or talent on his part to extract, that the electronics on the bike were such that it rode itself, that he used more electronics than anyone else, that he rather than the ducati could only win from in front, that he rather than the ducati could not overtake in corners (all this while he of all people knew the bike was rather difficult) and despite being the second youngest premier class world champion in history (by a few months) that if he really had any talent it would have been exhibited at an earlier age. How unreasonable for a 21 year old to think his treatment was unfair in the face of all this.
I now have absolutely no need to dwell on the past as you have frequently accused me of doing previously, but you seem to have taken up the habit, for reasons concerning which I could easily speculate. What does stoner's illness in 2009 have to do with the price of fish (so to speak), or anything else including the poor performance of the current ducati, the explanation of which is fairly obviously your underlying problem. That episode was another example of vicious and unfounded criticism ("vicious gloating" as someone, I think geonard, aptly put it), to the extent that it was believed by marlboro and nearly derailed his career; he doesn't look particularly mentally broken by valentino, as you proclaimed with glee at the time, just now.
Thats a big assumption, and not necessarily logical. You can be a little naughty and then after being chastised, be cranky because the response seemed excessive. But you were naughty all the same, and the chastisement was partly valid.
Has Jumkie put the wind up you?
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Neighbours...everybody needs good neighbours, with a little understanding........Oh sorry........mistook this topic for an early evening TV soap.
Thats a big assumption, and not necessarily logical. You can be a little naughty and then after being chastised, be cranky because the response seemed excessive. But you were naughty all the same, and the chastisement was partly valid.
Has Jumkie put the wind up you?(I know he,s on his latest 'take no prisoners' crusade, but there is no need to stand aside so quickly. ) There is still yet time for the Diplomat to make his mark..................
I haven't seen the incident, or nicky's response to it; have you? I am going with jumkie's take because I respect him and generally have found that if fond of winding people up on occasion (not a criticism btw) he is truthful, as opposed to the world of fantasy inhabited by the likes of talpa.
As to my assessment of hayden's character, please provide examples of ungracious behaviour by him. He even kept his temper when infamously take out by pedrosa.
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Neighbours...everybody needs good neighbours, with a little understanding........Oh sorry.......
Neighbours...everybody needs good neighbours, with a little understanding........Oh sorry........mistook this topic for an early evening TV soap.
Hit the nail on the head mate
