My problem is not with acknowledging Valentino, he will eventually retire and be rightly recognised as truly great as he would have been had he retired at the end of the 2005 season, but that yet another championship by a rider other than Valentino has been devalued, and yet another rival in MM (of whom I am not a particular fan btw) has been demonised, like every other significant rival VR has ever had.
My problem is not with acknowledging Valentino, he will eventually retire and be rightly recognised as truly great as he would have been had he retired at the end of the 2005 season, but that yet another championship by a rider other than Valentino has been devalued, and yet another rival in MM (of whom I am not a particular fan btw) has been demonised, like every other significant rival VR has ever had.
Bingo!
There's nothing Nietzsche couldn't teach ya'
'Bout the raising of the wrist...
Joined Oct 2006
25K Posts | 4K+
Your Mom's House
Hypothetical question: not sure how long you been intently watching GP, I'll assume you watched both Marquez championships in 2013-14. What if I told you Marc rode with special tires that were superior to others riders. Would his two titles seem legitimate?
Joined Oct 2006
25K Posts | 4K+
Your Mom's House
Please answer my hypothetical question, yes or no?
It can if the organizers allow it, but it did go on for several years, if it happened 1 year, is that title legit in your eyes?
Another hypothetical: next year they're going to a "standard ECU"; if say Honda were allowed go use a special electronic setting that allows tires to last 3 extra laps than others to complete a race distance, but that setting wasn't allowed by other teams, would that title seem legitimate to you?
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Hypothetically it's wrong and you strip Marquez of his 2 titles. So you mean to say MotoGP has been rigged for the last 20 years and that once Valentino Rossi leaves everything will be set right and fair till someone like Rossi comes again?
Joined Apr 2015
6K Posts | 5K+
NJ
I wanted to hit up both of your replies in one shot.
It's interesting that you stopped watching F1 during the Schumacher/Ferrari years because F1 was pretty much rigged in favor of Ferrari during that time period. The FIA had the nickname of Ferrari International Assistance because of how the FIA would bend, change, or outright ignore rules that could potentially help Ferrari and more specifically, Michael Schumacher win world titles. Max Mosley had a preoccupation with all things German during his reign of terror at the FIA. No real surprise when one considers his parents were good friends with old Adolf Hitler. As such, he wanted a German world champion as he thought that was best for the sport. Of course Max thought a lot of things were best for the sport even though they weren't. Max currently engages in a lot of revisionist history nowadays so as to portray his time, and more importantly, his administering of the sport as being impartial. But it most certainly was not. All sorts of technical innovations other teams found, were summarily banned as soon as it became obvious they gave the team a distinct technological engineering advantage over Ferrari. Does this all seem to sound rather, similar to MotoGP? It should.
Ferrari ran illegal barge boards in 1999 at Sepang, and they were ruled as legal in spite of the blatant rules violation. Ferrari won that race handily as could be expected.
In 2001, the FIA banned the beryllium V10's that were powering the McLaren's. Beryllium had elastic properties that helped generate more power output, and the Mercedes/Ilmor engines were easily the best engines on the grid during that time period. The result was their power levels dropped significantly, thus rendering the power output at a level that was identical to the 1998 season. Mika Hakkinen was done in 2001, and had no chance of even winning the title. Neither did any other team. Ferrari had their 2001 titles gifted to them by way of a nice convenient rule change that put their main opposition at a disadvantage. 2003 saw the FIA ban Michelin's tires which would expand to be wider when in use to afford more grip. That ban came when Ferrari protested the tires because all it really had to do with was that, Bridgestone/Ferrari were at a disadvantage in 2003. Ferrari barely won that title. And the real joke was, Ferrari and Bridgestone knew that the Michelin tires did this well before 2003, but it was only when their position was threatened that they acted on it. 2006 saw the Renault mass damper ban that had the nice occurrence of letting Schumacher back into the title hunt against Fernando Alonso.
F1 pretty much engaged in results rigging for years, and it made the overall product unwatchable. The hordes of red and the Schumacher fans however shouted down everyone who dared to offer the viewpoint that the championships were rigged, and were flagrantly violating all sense of decency and ethics as it pertains to sport. I'm sure this will sound even more familiar to MotoGP fans. You had a team and a driver protected by the FIA for years. When Bridgestone ...... up in 2005 with their tires, Ferrari was finished as Michelin had a superior tire to Bridgestone. The lone Ferrari victory that year was when all the Michelin runners pulled out in the Indianapolis debacle. Otherwise there would have been zero Ferrari/Schumacher victories.
With that said, it's rather naive to consider MotoGP has having operated on the up-and-up during Valentino Rossi's time here. Estoril 2006 was the turning point for seeing just how distinct Valentino Rossi's advantage was, and what that meant for the rest of the grid.
2007 was a divine revelation sent from the heavens...and the subsequent reaction for 2008 to try and tip the books back in favor of the Cryer of Tavullia, was more proof of how the administrators were desperate to preserve VR's status. Stoner was not welcomed by MotoGP because he was seen as ....... up the status quo on a level never anticipated. Rossi is big business, Stoner was not. So the deck was constantly stacked against Casey because let's be honest here, when things were working for Casey, the sort of gaps he was opening up on his opponents were devastating and could not be closed. He often was backing off to the point that he likely would have been winning races by +0:20 or more had he been pushing from start to finish. The so-called aliens could not even keep pace with him when he got onto the RCV. That's why the 2012 rules changes came because Dorna knew Stoner would have walked to the title, and possibly scored 400+ points. If Rossi had that sort of advantage on the GP12, there would have been zero rule change.
Yamaha saw the future in 2010, and let Rossi go because he wasn't worth it. Lorenzo was the future for them. If it wasn't for the backdoor effort to get him back in the team for 2013, I doubt we ever see VR back at Yamaha again. He would have suffered the same fate as aging stars such as Nicky Hayden, Colin Edwards, Loris Capirossi, and the many others who found their seats being moved slowly towards the back of the grid. Instead he was afforded a second chance that NEVER has been given to anyone.
Yes all of the riders are talented, which is why rule changes, and equipment changes can have a huge impact on the outcome of the season. Easiest way to stack the deck is to do funny things with tires first and foremost since most people have little idea of how easily a tire can make or break an entire season.
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Joined Oct 2006
25K Posts | 4K+
Your Mom's House
Thanx, I agree with your answer. No, I don't mean that at all. I don't think it's been rigged in a classical sense, though certainly the organizers and rules makers make the odds stacked, I do think it's important to understand the advantages and disadvantages that have a profound impact on the records.
Replying from a mobile so will not be able to respond to each and every point of yours. But let me ask VR was given an entry into Yamaha in 13 when Dorna would have known how bad Ducati would have been. They would have known a non-performing Rossi could negatively affect their profits. Why didn't they stopped it from happening? And why did Yamaha let him go if indeed he was a big deal? Now stretching this logic given how you chose to answer. Why didn't they put rules to get Honda on a disadvantage? Because of Honda-Repsol being a more important partner to them? Why did they allow tyre and ECU change if it will be a learning curve which will put the old riders at a disadvantage as their careers are about to get over so they will not have time to improve in case they get it wrong? Why did they give him 3 penalty point so that he will have to start at the back of the grid knowing once Lorenzo is out in front nobody can come close to him and that too in Valencia where Rossi was on the podium only once in ten years. They should have ensured that he would have become champion which would have attracted so much more of media attention and potential viewership for the coming years. They would have ensured given he was leading the points table. Why did they move on with awards ceremony with full vigour?Why do MotoGP have ten other things apart from Rossi displayed on their website. They should just keep it yellow and talk only Rossi.
Apart from that after your post I only have to say that Rossi is a cheat and a liar who doesn't deserve a single title he won and that entire MotoGP and Dorna ensured he won some titles.
Can we move on and talk something meaningful now that you have been proven and accepted to be right?
JPS my point was only that over the past whatever number of months I have followed this forum and finally joined, I believe Rossi hate has reached its nadir. I agree that there would have been some bias sometime but to term it that it has been a sham through and through would be unfair..won't it be? We all have our likes and dislikes but I believe we can move on and look at newer things.
Why I am saying all this is because it's been either Rossi hate or kitchens here lately.
This forum would be our tow for 3 months before we once again move onto races and gossip.
My 2 cents. Don't know where propagandhi is. He would have surely shared some nice pics coz of all this gyaan I gave
Joined Feb 2007
11K Posts | 2K+
Tennessee
Here is the deal. Without the advantages heaped on him, Valentino Rossi is not the record breaking Valentino Rossi who is worshipped and idolized around the motorcycle world.Riding the first half of his career against mediocre competition and a tire advantage created numbers that i could see how less knowledgeable GP fans could be conned into believing they were watching something unearthly.Then, when that advantage was overcome through the hard work of others, he was given that advantage as well. In a strange twist of fate though, Rossi's 2008 demand and Dorna's obedience to that demand is what brought down the veil, pardon the pun. Although he won 2 more championships in 08 and 09, [which to me are 2 of the most tainted and illegitimate titles in the history of sport, especially 08] he was exposed as just another very good rider with numbers that would have been more in line with the likes of Rainey, Schwantz, Roberts, Spencer, Lawson etc etc instead of the gaudy numbers recorded. Once everyone was on the same tires starting in 2009, Rossi's numbers are very Pedrosa like. Actually minus the title in 2009, Rossi has been out performed by Pedrosa 20 wins to 15, by Lorenzo 42 wins to 15, 3 titles to 1, By Stoner 22 wins to 15 and a title apiece, by Marquez 24 wins and 2 titles, to 7 wins and 0 titles in their 3 years competing. Since the beginning of 2009, Rossi has averaged a 2.1 wins per year, not the numbers of which Gods are born.`
Totally agree with you.
What do you think about Rabat in MotoGP? Will he get factory team to realise his potential in the future?
Joined Oct 2006
25K Posts | 4K+
Your Mom's House
Well his crew chief is a real Renaissance genius being both an architect and a mastermind team principal, might even be a dentist in his spare time. Unfortunately for Rabat there are 4 contender bikes, 3 of those seats are locked up for a few years, and depending on how the new tires and standard ECU shakes out will have an impact on that 4th seat. There are at least two Spanish riders ahead of Rabat (Viñalez and Pol Espargaro) for those coveted seats that allow riders "to realise their potential".
Now consider these other riders: Smith, Miller, Dovi and Iannone, which I rate better than Rabat. And Redding, Crutchlow, Bautista, Barbara, and A.Espargaro, who I rate at least as good if not better than Rabat. Maybe Rabat can attract a "factory bike" with KTM in 2017.
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Joined Apr 2015
6K Posts | 5K+
NJ
You call it Rossi hate, I don't.
What you're seeing is a place that hasn't succumbed to the breathless airs of yellow-clad fanboys who believe Rossi is the GOAT, and see a more accurate reflection of history.
Elsewhere on the internet, no such critical analysis and discussion even takes place when it concerns VR. Those who dare to even utter anything critical about The Doctor find themselves under fire by his cult, suffering personal attacks. Even the journalists continue writing yellow-tinted pieces about the awful fate VR suffered all because MM supposedly formed a Spanish mafia to deny the chosen one his 8th premier class title.
Valentino Rossi was the absolute worst thing to ever happen to MotoGP.
While you may think that's hate, or hyperbole, it's not.
There are years upon years of endless drivel written about the supposed greatness of Valentino Rossi. A few months of being critical of VR doesn't even come close to balancing out all of that.
I think Tito can hang in there with Dovi /Iannone/Smith. Redding has not been consistent but has good talent. Aleix is over-rated with his antics and aggression. I mean look at his younger more talented and mature. Barbera and Bautista are the seniors of the class in terms of age but not talent.
Problem with a Tito or a Rabat is these people are joining the premier class quite late. Think that being in form and racing in the premier class early plays a crucial role in winning MotoGP titles.
Joined Oct 2006
25K Posts | 4K+
Your Mom's House
Isn't "Tito" & "Rabat" referring to the same person? What do you mean by "form" seems to me the most "crucial" aspect of one's performance? Seems to me performance in the top class has more to do with how competitive is the machine one rides. Do u think Marquez wins the title on a satellite bike as a rookie?
Sorry I meant Tito and Zarco. With form I meant the bike and the rider both producing good results. Sometimes the bike will be really good but rider will not be at his best but still will be able to produce good results. 3-4 years of decently successful run in lower classes at an early stage in your career and you land a seat in one of them factory teams - which obviously matters a lot.
Obviously the machine will be a limiting factor but rider talent shines through and a little later you become part of a less established factory or top satellite team. Positions in Yamaha or Honda factory team is like top job offers in MBA colleges - very few and far in between-only lucky few get the opportunity.
