Skeptical of the Alien Overlord

JPSLotus · Nov 30, 2015

Jumkie said:
Excellent description. Certainly it's become hyper sensitive, but in November 2006 to November 2007, giving credit to Hayden was like saying today to a bopper, Marquez didn't do anything wrong at Sepang & Valencia 2015. Then from November 2007 giving credit to Stoner was like saying to a bopper today Marquez didn't do anything wrong at Sepang & Valencia 2015. Get the picture? No seriously, if you're interested go back into the archives of this forum. You will see just how adamant Rossi fans were, very similar to members like Papabozzo--angry, emotional, delusional, and lacking any logic rationale to formulate a sane conclusion. However, imagine a forum where the Boppabozzos were the majority of members. Worse probably because back then Rossi’s status was unassailable to this ilk. It still is in their minds!-- however, back then there was no independent discerned pattern of petulant behavior, generally understood implications of exclusive advantages and the effect of favoritism to artificially inflate the records.

Rossi fans are already 'tired' of members discuss calling Rossi out on a month old meltdown, meanwhile they raged for years and years about how Rossi got "robbed" (sound familiar) in 06/07. Consider this, these two titles he lost to honest kids doing their best to navigate a stacked series and against the political and very real mechanical disfavor. Nicky was the number 2, to his rookie teammate even in 06, testing the evo to eventually realize the Pedrocycle for 07, meanwhile Stoner was the 4th choice for Ducati (after Rossi vetoed him to be his teammate). These are the types of real details that have had massive implications on the records going forward! Stoner would have suffered the same political obstacles that a cloutless Hayden dealt with at Repsol under Alberto Puig, who at the time had so much influence as to be a practical partner of Carmelo. Though with Stoner's talent, it would have been near impossible to deny on a factory Yamaha. If Rossi can summon Carmelo to his motorhome, Puig shared an office at Dorna, this should give u pause to understand Hayden's political work environment which would have had a undeniable impact on his results. It only took real Spanish clout and riding talent in Lorenzo that finally saw him get 'equal' status, a situation UNACCEPTABLE to Rossi! Consider this when analyzing Hayden's tenure at Honda, which was similar to the Rossi equivalent of having a teammate and manager who hated Nicky and would do anything with the ample political pull to prop up Pedrosa.

I've done some digging around in the forum archives. People were calling Hayden defenders, Haydenboppers. Mamola got vilified for saying positive things about Hayden. Heck, I even saw you educating the idiots on the finer points of why Nicky was in fact a worthwhile champion, contrary to prevailing thought that saw the need to immediately diminish his achievement.

Hilarious when one looks at the last 10 years of VR and VR fan behavior.

povol · Nov 30, 2015

It's not a coincidence that every time Stoner was set to go on a winning rampage that unexpected changes came along to stifle his surge in performance. The out of the blue changes weeks before 2012 :after Stoner had dominated testing and declared the 2012 RCV the best bike he had ever ridden: we're so obvious it set in motion the wheels of Stoners retirement. After 07 when Dorna forced Bridgestone to supply Rossi with tires Ducati spent years developing , the events of 2012 were more than he could take. It was obvious to him and anyone paying attention that Dorna was not going to allow Stoner to surpass Rossi as the face of GP. Even against those odds, he was still able to dominate Rossi in head to head competition and create debate as to who was the best rider to ever race Moto GP.

AntG · Nov 30, 2015

povol said:
It's not a coincidence that every time Stoner was set to go on a winning rampage that unexpected changes came along to stifle his surge in performance. The out of the blue changes weeks before 2012 :after Stoner had dominated testing and declared the 2012 RCV the best bike he had ever ridden: we're so obvious it set in motion the wheels of Stoners retirement. After 07 when Dorna forced Bridgestone to supply Rossi with tires Ducati spent years developing , the events of 2012 were more than he could take. It was obvious to him and anyone paying attention that Dorna was not going to allow Stoner to surpass Rossi as the face of GP. Even against those odds, he was still able to dominate Rossi in head to head competition and create debate as to who was the best rider to ever race Moto GP.

Didn't Bridgestone change the tyres after Stoners 3 wins in a row in 2008 also? He went from blitzing everyone to crashing out in Misano and Brno which at the time the "experts" put down to Stoner cracking up when it was something like he was now having to run the same front tyre as the Yamaha?

JPSLotus · Nov 30, 2015

povol said:
It's not a coincidence that every time Stoner was set to go on a winning rampage that unexpected changes came along to stifle his surge in performance. The out of the blue changes weeks before 2012 :after Stoner had dominated testing and declared the 2012 RCV the best bike he had ever ridden: we're so obvious it set in motion the wheels of Stoners retirement. After 07 when Dorna forced Bridgestone to supply Rossi with tires Ducati spent years developing , the events of 2012 were more than he could take. It was obvious to him and anyone paying attention that Dorna was not going to allow Stoner to surpass Rossi as the face of GP. Even against those odds, he was still able to dominate Rossi in head to head competition and create debate as to who was the best rider to ever race Moto GP.

I believe this is why Ducati and Stoner are mum on whether we might see a wild card, or even a comeback in 2017. Rossi's contract is done at the end of this year, and I think Yamaha is going to sever ties with him at season's end.

While he could always ride for a satellite team, I don't see him being okay with it. Honda will never take him back, and without Yamaha, his MotoGP career would effectively be over.

Hence why Casey would come back in 2017. It would mean the end of the rigged MotoGP game in favor of VR. I feel Stoner wants to ride again, but doesn't want to compete in what amounts to a rigged sport that favors a guy that doesn't even have 3/4 the talent Stoner had. Losing to a guy because he has the ear of the sport's administrators is total ........, and has nothing to do with being a fair playing field.

If Rossi announces he is retiring at the end of 2016, I believe you will see Stoner on the Desmosedici at Losail 2017.

moto vudu · Nov 30, 2015

Stoner is done. If he had the heart to race he never would've quit. Wildcard ride for fun, maybe... full season.. No.

michaelm · Nov 30, 2015

moto vudu said:
Stoner is done. If he had the heart to race he never would've quit. Wildcard ride for fun, maybe... full season.. No.

I think he has finished as well, but not through lack of heart, of which he had enough to win 23 races on a Ducati 800 bike including wins even on the truly diabolical 2010 version ie arguably more than anyone else out there at the time.

michaelm · Nov 30, 2015

JPSLotus said:
I believe this is why Ducati and Stoner are mum on whether we might see a wild card, or even a comeback in 2017. Rossi's contract is done at the end of this year, and I think Yamaha is going to sever ties with him at season's end.

While he could always ride for a satellite team, I don't see him being okay with it. Honda will never take him back, and without Yamaha, his MotoGP career would effectively be over.

Hence why Casey would come back in 2017. It would mean the end of the rigged MotoGP game in favor of VR. I feel Stoner wants to ride again, but doesn't want to compete in what amounts to a rigged sport that favors a guy that doesn't even have 3/4 the talent Stoner had. Losing to a guy because he has the ear of the sport's administrators is total ........, and has nothing to do with being a fair playing field.

If Rossi announces he is retiring at the end of 2016, I believe you will see Stoner on the Desmosedici at Losail 2017.

Stoner's retirement was not quite as simple as that. He had raced with his whole family's financial future on his back since he was 14, he was having the kid, he got riled about the Japanese Grand Prix after the nuclear accident among other things, and reportedly wanted to retire after the 2011 championship in any case.

He certainly was of the belief that forces moved against him after championship wins, perhaps not unreasonably, but at the time of his retirement I doubt a specifically pro-Rossi conspiracy was his major concern. That said, a reduction in electronics and the circus surrounding Rossi being removed from the sport might make a return by him more likely, if still unlikely imo. He perhaps might see some justification in recent events nakedly revealing that VR can be petulant and manipulative, and it is difficult to see how VR's large following could accuse Stoner or any other rider of whinging about hard racing now.

Dr No · Nov 30, 2015

Cool Blue said:
Seriously, you guys need to read Nietzsche, and spend time living in a country where the culture and subtleties of the morality are totally different to what you were brought up with. And then another and yet another. And then you might start get that it's all quite arbitrary...

If you want to get indignant or offended or excited or whatever, it's your choice. But you need to realise it is a choice, an arbitrary one, not a position based on fact. These are your choices, at the end of the day there are only four:

1. I'm Not Ok-You're Ok
2. I'm Not Ok-You're Not Ok
3. I'm Ok-You're Not Ok
4. I'm Ok - You're Ok

Wake up and smell the money guys: MotoGP is a TV show first and a sport second and I think Rossi gets that better than any of his competitors ever did - I would guess that he gets that instinctively rather than intellectually, by dint of his personality, but it doesn't matter. So, the combination of Rossi's incandescent charm his talent for racing motorcycles and the platform offered by MotoGP, was a perfect storm that was always going to be undeniable. It's a chemical reaction. My advice: get over it.

It's just another trip to the zoo: oh look, there's the misogynist, teenage boy, there's the rich sociopath, there's a herd of political idealists, there's the super-salesman, there's the analytical, introverted genius, look at the narcissist!... they're all there in their climate controlled glass enclosures. And they can't agree on anything, because they're values are unconsciously constrained by their personalities and their culture, but they're not quite self aware enough to realise it. Not yet... Watch this space.

They've been developing Grand Prix motorcycles for how long? Since 1949 right? And they keep getting better as a result of all that trial and error, mental and physical graft, and the odd moment of brilliant inspiration. Imagine how good they would be if they'd been at it for three million years. There'd be perfect right? Well, that's who we are: three million years of evolution later, here we all are. Perfect in every way. And that's why we are all always absolutely correct, even when we violently disagree.

.... Nietzsche, a bit of Kant wouldn't go astray.

michaelm · Nov 30, 2015

JPSLotus said:
I've done some digging around in the forum archives. People were calling Hayden defenders, Haydenboppers. Mamola got vilified for saying positive things about Hayden. Heck, I even saw you educating the idiots on the finer points of why Nicky was in fact a worthwhile champion, contrary to prevailing thought that saw the need to immediately diminish his achievement.

Hilarious when one looks at the last 10 years of VR and VR fan behavior.

Notwithstanding all this including recent events, Valentino was still a great, great rider at his peak, and is not exactly terrible even now at age 36 as running someone as good as Lorenzo so close on the same bike demonstrates.

What recent events demonstrated to me was that he is fully complicit in the campaigns of vilification against his rivals waged by the crazy element among his fan base which I had previously blamed purely on that fan base, that "that's racing " only works one way, and that he does have a very healthy sense of entitlement. His die hard fans will continue to find no fault with him regardless, but I do think he has trashed his legacy to some extent, a legacy which was untouchable/beyond questioning by anyone 10 years ago and which certainly did not require further justification by a 10th title.

Jumkie · Nov 30, 2015

michaelm said:
Stoner's retirement was not quite as simple as that. He had raced with his whole family's financial future on his back since he was 14, he was having the kid, he got riled about the Japanese Grand Prix after the nuclear accident among other things, and reportedly wanted to retire after the 2011 championship in any case.

He certainly was of the belief that forces moved against him after championship wins, perhaps not unreasonably, but at the time of his retirement I doubt a specifically pro-Rossi conspiracy was his major concern. That said, a reduction in electronics and the circus surrounding Rossi being removed from the sport might make a return by him more likely, if still unlikely imo. He perhaps might see some justification in recent events nakedly revealing that VR can be petulant and manipulative, and it is difficult to see how VR's large following could accuse Stoner or any other rider of whinging about hard racing now.

I have to disagree with you Mike. I think Stoner retired because he was privy to the Rossi centric entertainment pseudo competition Carmelo orchestrated, as there were many specific details supporting this starting with the 2nd tier Michelins, and the consistent systematic sapping of his enjoyment and rubbishing of his dedication to the authenticity of a sport. I think he slowly and painfully realized that GP under the Carmelo Rossi brand was increasingly a farce and decided it wasn't worth competing in a sport whose overwhelming fandom considered him an unworthy competitor and worse, a villain and pawn on a personal level. We can sit here and discuss all this .... from the proverbial comfort of our lazy boy, but Casey was out their waking up at the crack of dawn to train, cycling, MXing, risking, watching his diet, press commitments (whose questions often put him on defensive because hey, this guy will speak his mind and making himself look bad, great sound bite, unlike the softball questions boppers disguised as "journalists" would task VR), all this away from his family, etc. to then have all his accomplishments tainted, booed, unappreciated, and worse, rules tampering and GP vendor manipulated to make his efforts handicapped in favor of the Golden Goose. Even when he got taken out by Rossi he became the villain and Rossi the victim of an "ungracious" Casey Stoner by weak ... journalists and paddock-boppers ( of which should have been astonishingly clear there are a lot who were filtered out from the recent Sepang Val - Qaeda incident where even today experts and even racers lining up to side with VR). Who thinks that was a Rockstar lifestyle that he couldn't hack? Nobody accusing him of it would stand for it.

michaelm · Nov 30, 2015

Jumkie said:
I have to disagree with you Mike. I think Stoner retired because he was privy to the Rossi centric entertainment pseudo competition Carmelo orchestrated, as there were many specific details supporting this starting with the 2nd tier Michelins, and the consistent systematic sapping of his enjoyment and rubbishing of his dedication to the authenticity of a sport. I think he slowly and painfully realized that GP under the Carmelo Rossi brand was increasingly a farce and decided it wasn't worth competing in a sport whose overwhelming fandom considered him an unworthy competitor and worse, a villain and pawn on a personal level. We can sit here and discuss all this .... from the proverbial comfort of our lazy boy, but Casey was out their waking up at the crack of dawn to train, cycling, MXing, risking, watching his diet, press commitments (whose questions often put him on defensive because hey, this guy will speak his mind and making himself look bad, great sound bite, unlike the softball questions boppers disguised as "journalists" would task VR), all this away from his family, etc. to then have all his accomplishments tainted, booed, unappreciated, and worse, rules tampering and GP vendor manipulated to make his efforts handicapped in favor of the Golden Goose. Even when he got taken out by Rossi he became the villain and Rossi the victim of an "ungracious" Casey Stoner by weak ... journalists and paddock-boppers ( of which should have been astonishingly clear there are a lot who were filtered out from the recent Sepang Val - Qaeda incident where even today experts and even racers lining up to side with VR). Who thinks that was a Rockstar lifestyle that he couldn't hack? Nobody accusing him of it would stand for it.

My point was that I don't think he was too worried about Rossi as a rival in 2011 or 2012, and I doubt would have foreseen another close run at the title from him; I think his mindset was more that he was of the belief Dorna would attempt to stymie him regardless of who his current rivals were. As I said, he may feel somewhat justified by recent events where attempted manipulation of the racing by off track means was nakedly apparent.

Cool Blue · Nov 30, 2015

Dr No said:
.... Nietzsche, a bit of Kant wouldn't go astray.

Cool, seems like you know something about this stuff, thanks for the suggestion!
I'm a complete hack on the topic: I just recently discovered that poor old Fredrik's theories line up pretty well with mine (belief is the death of reason?). I like his objectivity, seems like it was pretty courageous at the time.

Anyway, I'm just trying to offer some distraction from all stuff

So why do you suggest Kant by the way? Isn't that winding the clock back 100 years?

I checked him out and it seems like he did a pretty fair job of applying a systematic and disciplined logic to the whole morality/ethics thing but he doesn't land it for me. He's a bit like that joke about the mathematician who is on a desert island and is asked to solve the problem of opening a can of beans and his reply starts with "Assume we have a can opener...".

The thing I like about Nietzsche is that he puts the whole thing in context: it's all made up. And if you put that together with the concept of social evolution, it all makes perfect sense.

Hmm... thinking about it, maybe Sun Tzu is our guy here, or The Black Prince of course.

kurre · Nov 30, 2015

michaelm said:
Notwithstanding all this including recent events, Valentino was still a great, great rider at his peak, and is not exactly terrible even now at age 36 as running someone as good as Lorenzo so close on the same bike demonstrates.

What recent events demonstrated to me was that he is fully complicit in the campaigns of vilification against his rivals waged by the crazy element among his fan base which I had previously blamed purely on that fan base, that "that's racing " only works one way, and that he does have a very healthy sense of entitlement. His die hard fans will continue to find no fault with him regardless, but I do think he has trashed his legacy to some extent, a legacy which was untouchable/beyond questioning by anyone 10 years ago and which certainly did not require further justification by a 10th title.

Exaaaaaaaaaactly what I was thinking. But a lot of the discussion in the last few pages of this thread have gone back to the concept of "things have always been that way" in relation to the vitriol that comes from Rossi fans. That may be true, but I never felt that way...at least, not quite. When people criticized Hayden 8 or 9 years ago, it didn't sound so hateful to me as the criticism of Marquez and Lorenzo sounds now. Maybe because around that time, Rossi really had been "untouchable." The "Stoner the Moaner" criticisms were really the beginning of the irrational hate, at least for me. And now after Rossi displayed his fallibility on the Ducati, the "Rossi can do no wrong" attitude seems a lot more detached from reality than it used to.

Actually, the thing that just popped into my head as I'm typing this is the race where Rossi took Stoner out while trying to overtake him in the rain...in Jerez? I suppose I could go and check, but I want to say that was in the first season where Rossi was on the Ducati and Stoner was on the Honda. Rossi came from waaaaaaay back trying to overtake Stoner in the wet and he ended up taking him out. Then the marshals clearly helped Rossi get back on the bike and Stoner was left there holding his junk. Stoner said something then....."Rossi's ambition outweighs his talent." Something like that. That incident, for me, was the moment where the rope that tethered the hot-air-balloon of Rossi fans to the ground was severed and they took off, floating in the air away from reality. Stoner was pretty bold to make that comment.....but Rossi was clearly at fault. The fact that Rossi made a mistake seemed to be something that no Rossi fan could admit. They couldn't just say, "Yeah, well, that was a bad move there." So they had to all unite to tear down Stoner's image. Then they behaved as if Stoner's comments were a bigger transgression than the crash caused by Rossi, and therefore Stoner's "reckless daring" to even make such a statement actually vindicated Rossi in their minds.

povol · Nov 30, 2015

Nicky was sparred to some extent because the horde looked at his championship as an anomaly, a good guy who got lucky. There was plenty of ribbing but not much hate. Stoner on the other hand was a different ball of wax . This cocky kid just kicked the .... out of Rossi and as I said way back then, this is not a Rossi lap dog, this one bites. The hate heaped on Stoner moved Dorna to make a move that would virtually guarantee the golden goose got his advantage back. Stoner was ...... worse than anyone I can remember in sports.

Dr No · Dec 1, 2015

Cool Blue said:
Cool, seems like you know something about this stuff, thanks for the suggestion!
I'm a complete hack on the topic: I just recently discovered that poor old Fredrik's theories line up pretty well with mine (belief is the death of reason?). I like his objectivity, seems like it was pretty courageous at the time.

Anyway, I'm just trying to offer some distraction from all stuff

So why do you suggest Kant by the way? Isn't that winding the clock back 100 years?

I checked him out and it seems like he did a pretty fair job of applying a systematic and disciplined logic to the whole morality/ethics thing but he doesn't land it for me. He's a bit like that joke about the mathematician who is on a desert island and is asked to solve the problem of opening a can of beans and his reply starts with "Assume we have a can opener...".

The thing I like about Nietzsche is that he puts the whole thing in context: it's all made up. And if you put that together with the concept of social evolution, it all makes perfect sense.

Hmm... thinking about it, maybe Sun Tzu is our guy here, or The Black Prince of course.

Maybe a bit of Hume Is-Ought applies in these interminable threads as well?

Rafa · Dec 1, 2015

There is too much Rossi hate going on here to the extent that the forum is losing its balanced approach with two sides battling it out. Seems everyone is better than Rossi like even Karel Abraham can be in the run for MotoGP title if he is on an M1 or an RCV. I am not die hard Rossi fan. In fact Mika Hakkinen got me into motorsports in (lost interest in F1 during Schumi and Ferrari's monopoly years). Then I moved over to Motogp and liked Rossi's antics. However I would go all out for the new crop when a Casey or a Pedrosa or a Lorenzo would win the race and two of them did win the championship. However, minus the drama Rossi deserves his improvement from nowhere in Ducati to fighting for championship. He had to change his riding style. He came from an era when lean angles were just slightly better than knee downs. We can't be so biased

michaelm · Dec 1, 2015

Rafa said:
There is too much Rossi hate going on here to the extent that the forum is losing its balanced approach with two sides battling it out. Seems everyone is better than Rossi like even Karel Abraham can be in the run for MotoGP title if he is on an M1 or an RCV. I am not die hard Rossi fan. In fact Mika Hakkinen got me into motorsports in (lost interest in F1 during Schumi and Ferrari's monopoly years). Then I moved over to Motogp and liked Rossi's antics. However I would go all out for the new crop when a Casey or a Pedrosa or a Lorenzo would win the race and two of them did win the championship. However, minus the drama Rossi deserves his improvement from nowhere in Ducati to fighting for championship. He had to change his riding style. He came from an era when lean angles were just slightly better than knee downs. We can't be so biased

No doubt he did extraordinarily well this year, and without the drama concerning the last 3 rounds even a close 2nd at age 36 would have added yet further lustre to a career beyond remarkable many years ago.

Where is the bias in regard to his late season antics though? The argy bargy was of VR's own creation.

Cool Blue · Dec 1, 2015

Dr No said:
Maybe a bit of Hume Is-Ought applies in these interminable threads as well?

A lovely little thinker but a bugger when he's pissed?

Well... Yes: that was the whole point of my original post.

In the classical, empirical sense...
I was (albeit unknowingly) applying Hume's guillotine to the normative bleating on both sides.

In the modern, ethical naturalist sense...
If Rossi IS to win 7 championships then he OUGHT to manage the ....... media. Like, really ....... manage... the ....... media...

But yeh... Hume's my guy now. Thanks for the steer.

(Thank you Wikipedia, for the illusion of pompous erudition)

michaelm · Dec 1, 2015

Cool Blue said:
A lovely little thinker but a bugger when he's pissed?

Well... Yes: that was the whole point of my original post.

In the classical, empirical sense...
I was (albeit unknowingly) applying Hume's guillotine to the normative bleating on both sides.

In the modern, ethical naturalist sense...
If Rossi IS to win 7 championships then he OUGHT to manage the ....... media. Like, really ....... manage... the ....... media...

(Thank you Wikipedia, for the illusion of pompous erudition)

Yes, the Pythons were prescient.

"David Hume could out-consume" is quite relevant to your argument.

Rafa · Dec 1, 2015

michaelm said:
No doubt he did extraordinarily well this year, and without the drama concerning the last 3 rounds even a close 2nd at age 36 would have added yet further lustre to a career beyond remarkable many years ago.

Where is the bias in regard to his late season antics though? The argy bargy was of VR's own creation.

But if you see folks here have started claiming that he has been like this all through and how entire MotoGP was behind him to win championship year after year which is utter ........ IMO. I do not have a track near my home so I do not have track days. But clearly when we go out on the twisties some people do it better than others on the same bike despite riding for years. Some juniors doing better than people riding for donkeys years. Point is talent plus opportunity creates success and that's what he did. He had some opportunity and he created some. Most of us here veg out in front of a t.v. while these guys push bikes to the limits so we can have some respect than such scathing biased statements and calling everything black or white. Rossi or Casey or Lorenzo or Marquez deserved some and made some. And that's what competition makes these people. Focussed on the job and doing whatever they can in their means.
Again it may sound like Yellow fan but that's the truth. Don't be so much of a hater that only thing we speak is hate and better discussions and analysis that some of the good guys do here gets overshadowed.
P.S. Rooting for a citizen of our erstwhile ruler - Scott Redding

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