Skeptical of the Alien Overlord

michaelm · Dec 1, 2015

moto vudu said:
Well the non-fiction narrative isn't as entertaining to them so they have come up with a fictional narrative.

Even though I am now an avowed Lorenzo fan?

Just come up with some arguments. Most people on here are not entirely serious and like a debate. Calling anyone who disagrees with you a "hater" doesn't really cut it.

Povol has said he thinks Rossi's early career statistics are exaggerated by weak opposition. That is an opinion, tell us why you disagree with it; I personally think Biaggi was not negligible based on his first year on a 500 anyway. Being called "only" as good as King Kenny, Wayne Rainey or Eddie Lawson (particularly the latter) is not exactly the most trenchant criticism ever made of a GP bike rider, btw, either.

Dr No · Dec 1, 2015

paparazzo said:
Basically if you're not an Anglo/American rider you are trashed on this forum. The bigger the success the harder they hate the more the excuses. This forum would have you believe every one of the 100+ wins and 9 titles was engineered by Dorna, while any Anglo/American rider was held back in a massive conspiracy to prevent from winning and Casey Stoner was forced out by Dorna and Nicky Hayden is a much better than Valentino Rossi...just preposterous.

By George!
You're onto something!
I've never seen Braddles get mocked on here. And Cal being called Cuntslow must have been a figment of my imagination. Stoner, no one has ever dissed him on this site, ever. Nor has Nicky been accused of a certain affection for his close family members.
Everyone hates on Haga, and the death of Abe is not commemorated, but celebrated. I haven't seen a single positive post about Lorenzo. Nor Pedrosa. Ever. Iannone is openly derided (especially by LSparrows) and JKD doesn't have a crush on Magical Mike.
Thank you for opening my eyes

Bern1 · Dec 1, 2015

paparazzo said:
Basically if you're not an Anglo/American rider you are trashed on this forum. The bigger the success the harder they hate the more the excuses. This forum would have you believe every one of the 100+ wins and 9 titles was engineered by Dorna, while any Anglo/American rider was held back in a massive conspiracy to prevent from winning and Casey Stoner was forced out by Dorna and Nicky Hayden is a much better than Valentino Rossi...just preposterous.

There is a problem with categorical statements like this.
That problem is that there is no way the statement can be correct.
Therefore there is a credibility issue with it.

It may surprise you to know who the current favorite rider is of this particular American forum member....hint, he's not American or Anglo.

povol · Dec 1, 2015

paparazzo said:
Basically if you're not an Anglo/American rider you are trashed on this forum. The bigger the success the harder they hate the more the excuses. This forum would have you believe every one of the 100+ wins and 9 titles was engineered by Dorna, while any Anglo/American rider was held back in a massive conspiracy to prevent from winning and Casey Stoner was forced out by Dorna and Nicky Hayden is a much better than Valentino Rossi...just preposterous.

I clearly said he was one of the best ever and clearly said only about 75% of his numbers were manipulated in his favor. Plus, I'm a Marquez fan, so that shoots your other theory down as well. Instead of just blindly defending Rossi, why don't you go about explaining his numbers since everyone started riding the same tire. I know it hurts to admit your idol is not what you built him up to be, but give it a shot anyway. Like I told you before, I come from a generation that has balls. The hater thing doesn't affect men with balls. We will tell you the truth no matter how much it hurts. Now that you know the ground rules, tell me how I'm wrong about Rossi since he started riding the same tires as everyone else

Gaz · Dec 1, 2015

moto vudu said:
I don't doubt he said it, but I don't see any other riders willingly jumping to a bike that's not as competitive as what they're currently riding. Rossi did it twice. His results at Ducati weren't great, but he took the risk and gave it a go. I think it was a risk worth taking.

The jump to Ducati was not a risk worth taking ............. it was an ego laden and driven need of VR's to prove to the world that he was both the development god as well as the adapatbility king of MotoGP.

This was not a risk worth taking, but a need of his for attention and credit to be given, as afterall he had been getting beaten somewhat regularly by a number of new riders and an ego of the size of VR does not accept that others are his equal

Of course the fact that VR despised Stoner and the results CS was achieving had given VR a false impression of the bike itself (something he admitted) and thus he went to Ducati because in his mind he could make the bike achieve the results that he felt CS was not riding hard enough to achieve

In the end, the egg fried nicely on his and Burgess' face such that they could not leave fast enough when the time was up.

Gaz · Dec 1, 2015

paparazzo said:
The beauty of it is that no one really cares what you or all the other paranoid irrational Rossi haters in here think. You're just another faceless hater on the internet. The numbers and records may not mean anything to you but they are always used to judge a potential GOAT.

And on numbers he is third.

Gaz · Dec 1, 2015

paparazzo said:
Basically if you're not an Anglo/American rider you are trashed on this forum. The bigger the success the harder they hate the more the excuses. This forum would have you believe every one of the 100+ wins and 9 titles was engineered by Dorna, while any Anglo/American rider was held back in a massive conspiracy to prevent from winning and Casey Stoner was forced out by Dorna and Nicky Hayden is a much better than Valentino Rossi...just preposterous.

Sh*t, you got me ............... my favourite rider is Miller (if I am to have a favourite) purely because he is an Aussie who happily calls himself ....... which is a bit self deprecating and something most Aussies enjoy in a person.

But now you lose ............. Vinales has greatly impressed me this year and I hope he does well next year (rate him better than Esparagaro).

Baz, another that was impressing on what was not a great machine.

Pedrosa, been a coset fan for a few years now, since Pig took a backward step and allowed Dani to somewhat come out of his shell and start being Dani.

As for your other assertion, given that there have been numerous disparaging comments about near all riders I greatly suspect that your perception is tainted by what you want to see, read or hear.

May I suggest that you review past history of this forum and see the 'hating' (your term) and scorn that has been poured on any number of Anglo/US riders by many who you are now calling 'haters' of Rossi.

povol · Dec 1, 2015

Gaz said:
And on numbers he is third.

But but no, he is the goat.

Just like Rossi's numbers, Ago's and Nieto's mean next to nothing to me. Ago's numbers were a result of an even larger advantage than Rossi enjoyed, and Nieto never won a big boy race.

moto vudu · Dec 1, 2015

Gaz said:
The jump to Ducati was not a risk worth taking ............. it was an ego laden and driven need of VR's to prove to the world that he was both the development god as well as the adapatbility king of MotoGP.

This was not a risk worth taking, but a need of his for attention and credit to be given, as afterall he had been getting beaten somewhat regularly by a number of new riders and an ego of the size of VR does not accept that others are his equal

Of course the fact that VR despised Stoner and the results CS was achieving had given VR a false impression of the bike itself (something he admitted) and thus he went to Ducati because in his mind he could make the bike achieve the results that he felt CS was not riding hard enough to achieve

In the end, the egg fried nicely on his and Burgess' face such that they could not leave fast enough when the time was up.

IMO it was definitely a risk worth taking. Best to take those chances instead of looking back at a career wondering "what if?" I can appreciate him taking the chance that other riders wouldn't take. BTW, every rider on the GP grid has an ego and VR's ego certainly isn't any bigger than Lorenzo's and Marc's.

kurre · Dec 1, 2015

paparazzo said:
The beauty of it is that no one really cares what you or all the other paranoid irrational Rossi haters in here think. You're just another faceless hater on the internet. The numbers and records may not mean anything to you but they are always used to judge a potential GOAT.

I care. I am not paranoid. I am not irrational. I do not hate Rossi.

I do hate being told to go F-myself simply for saying "Hey, it's possible that Rossi isn't, in fact, a god."

These threats of "You are just a faceless hater" used to pack more punch before Rossi displayed his own fallibility, in my opinion. Now, to just come out and say "None of you matter,".....maybe you should ask yourself the question, "Am I the problem?"

povol · Dec 1, 2015

bh84 said:
Riders earn their rides through their marketability. They earn them off the value of having their name associated with a company will bring. In that sense, Rossi will have a factory bike until he retires, deserved or not. If Yamaha drops him, Honda or someone will pick him up because of the hordes of fans who want to ride what he rides, do what he does, be just a little more like him. Believe it or not, factories don't care about race results that much, they care about sales, and they hire whichever rider will generate the most sales. How many R1s do you think have been sold to Rossi fans? How many would not have been sold had a less popular rider been on that bike? In the end, it comes down to money.

So what you are saying is Rossi will become the Danica Patrick of MotoGp

Gaz · Dec 1, 2015

moto vudu said:
This forum has members that claim they hate Rossi "boppers", but they're blind to see that they're just as bad at the opposite end of the spectrum as a Rossi "hater". Rossi boppers think Rossi can do no wrong and worship everything he does, while the haters blindly think everything he does is wrong and hate everything about him.

To be totally fair here Moto, the forum generally does not 'hate' the Rossi Boppers but they are certainly intolerant of the rabid nonsensical postings that have occurred from time to time (with an increase since Sepang) as these very posters are unable or unwilling to either debate or even entertain an opposing view.

Just because someone has an opposing view it does not make one a hater although of late the word is thrown around to freely and seemingly almost as a means to try to 'shame' the other participant into accepting a view or opinion with which they have opposition and wish to freely and openly debate. In short, the term hater is being used as a means of essentially closing ones eyes, blocking their ears and going lalalala until it all goes away.

You want to see true stifled debate, go to Crash, some of the Reddit forums and so on where any view that does not fit the main flow of the forum is deleted or attacked even when the view is presented in well written format and is not abusive

This place has for years accepted opposing views (.... Rog, Talps and I have had some belter discussion), but only of late has the level of personal abuse (both sides) seemed to increase where opinions differ which is grossly unfortunate and seemingly able to be tracked to specific instances.

You have shown that even as a bopper (not a yellow glassed fanboi) that well presented and debated opinions are welcome in this place and you have done so without stooping to any personal level. This alone shows that the place is not 'anti Rossi' or full of 'Rossi haters', just that in many cases we may not accept some views and will debate them vigorously if we feel there is reason.

Gaz · Dec 1, 2015

moto vudu said:
IMO it was definitely a risk worth taking. Best to take those chances instead of looking back at a career wondering "what if?" I can appreciate him taking the chance that other riders wouldn't take. BTW, every rider on the GP grid has an ego and VR's ego certainly isn't any bigger than Lorenzo's and Marc's.

Please read my previous posts and you will see that I readily admit that ALL riders have high egos (all top flight athletes do, as it is this ego that allows them to achieve the heights they do)

But I will heavily and happily argue that VR/MM/JL have matching sized egos.

MM/VR I reckon are similar but VR has a more 'self important' ego (an air of entitlement because of who he is and what he has achieved), where MM just has an ego of a smartass young upstart. Both very strong on self entitlement and both very much seeking the publicity and attention, afterall they are creating a brand

JL has a more petulant ego, seeking of recognition for what he has achieved in his career and personally, he is entitled to the recognition as he is often overlooked but is second only behind VR in terms of World Titles (all classes) amongst the active riders.

And FWIW, I have a number of second hand anecdotes of these riders (second hand being told to me by the person who experienced the interaction) from riders, fans, officials (flaggies through to paid FIM officials), medics at a number of MotoGP events that have formed my opinions

Gaz · Dec 1, 2015

povol said:
So what you are saying is Rossi will become the Danica Patrick of MotoGp

Please no ...... shots (of Rossi of course, Danica seems more suited)

Gaz · Dec 2, 2015

povol said:
But but no, he is the goat.

Just like Rossi's numbers, Ago's and Nieto's mean next to nothing to me. Ago's numbers were a result of an even larger advantage than Rossi enjoyed, and Nieto never won a big boy race.[/QUOTE]

He never tried, but that is more a discussion of the time when the 'tiddlers' were far more highly regarded than the other classes are of today.

Hell, I recall the 50cc, 80cc days or a swarming pack of mosquitos on a brisk summer evening.

IMO only here, but I agree, it is not a numbers game for me as my personal GOAT is, was and always will be Doohan (obvious bias reasons), followed by Rainey as I simply admired both riders, the mental application and fortitude that both had.

Again, IMO only but for all the riders whinging these days of 'hard' riding I often think that they should just thank their lucky stars that they were not racing in the era between 1985 - 1999.

#22 · Dec 2, 2015

JPSLotus said:
Yeah see that's ....... ridiculous.

I'm only one person, and in a minuscule minority at that, but I'd never buy a Yamaha as long as VR continues to ride there. I'd buy a Honda, Suzuki, or Kawasaki before buying Yamaha at this point.

No Ducati?

moto vudu said:
I don't doubt he said it, but I don't see any other riders willingly jumping to a bike that's not as competitive as what they're currently riding. Rossi did it twice. His results at Ducati weren't great, but he took the risk and gave it a go. I think it was a risk worth taking.

The only reason Rossi went to Ducati was because he bluffed to Yamaha that if he he didn't get undisputed number 1 status at Yamaha (and thus demote the at-the-time WC leader to number 2 status) he would leave and Yamaha simply called him on it. He had nowhere to go other than Ducati. Personally I think he'd have been more successful on the Suzuki, but they weren't willing to pay his salary.

paparazzo said:
The beauty of it is that no one really cares what you or all the other paranoid irrational Rossi haters in here think. You're just another faceless hater on the internet. The numbers and records may not mean anything to you but they are always used to judge a potential GOAT.

And therefore we don't care about you?

No-one here is denying the numbers, but it's funny how when the numbers from 2007-2015 are compared with the likes of Stoner, Lorenzo and Marquez, the period of which they are directly comparable, people like you cannot admit that other riders are better, you simply become offensively defensive with crap like "Well he's 36, lets see ... do that age 36".

So lets compare Rossi with like for like WC's between 2007 and 2015:

Wins:
Lorenzo - 39
Stoner - 38
Rossi - 28
Marquez - 24

Podiums:
Lorenzo - 96
Rossi - 84
Stoner - 69
Marquez - 39

Poles:
Stoner - 39
Lorenzo - 34
Marquez - 30
Rossi - 16

Fastest Laps:
Marquez - 30
Stoner - 29
Lorenzo - 25
Rossi - 24

Points:
Lorenzo - 2342
Rossi - 2312
Stoner - 1815
Marquez - 938

Statistically, for that period, Lorenzo is better than Rossi and arguably in a field of more competitive factory riders. "Numbers don't lie".

moto vudu said:
This forum has members that claim they hate Rossi "boppers", but they're blind to see that they're just as bad at the opposite end of the spectrum as a Rossi "hater". Rossi boppers think Rossi can do no wrong and worship everything he does, while the haters blindly think everything he does is wrong and hate everything about him.

At the beginning of last season this forum was 80% Marquez hate, so I guess there's a need to jump to a different rider to hate to keep entertained.

Oh yes, Arrabiata is full of Rossi hate..despite praising him with "one of the best wet weather rides in history" in Donington Park 2005 amongst other things. Compare that to Rossi boppers who joined post Sepang like Harryjones05 who simply posted expletive filled insults at other posters if they didn't suck Rossi off, and even wished serious injury on another rider.

paparazzo said:
Basically if you're not an Anglo/American rider you are trashed on this forum. The bigger the success the harder they hate the more the excuses. This forum would have you believe every one of the 100+ wins and 9 titles was engineered by Dorna, while any Anglo/American rider was held back in a massive conspiracy to prevent from winning and Casey Stoner was forced out by Dorna and Nicky Hayden is a much better than Valentino Rossi...just preposterous.

No, if you're a ........ you're trashed.

Gaz said:
In the end, the egg fried nicely on his and Burgess' face such that they could not leave fast enough when the time was up.

I'd have loved to have seen his final moments after Valencia 2012 in the garage. I bet he got off the bike and went straight out!

povol said:
So what you are saying is Rossi will become the Danica Patrick of MotoGp

I despise that woman...

povol · Dec 2, 2015

#22 said:
I despise that woman...

misogynistic hater

Seems as if the luster is finally wearing thin as she just got her 3rd crew chief in 3 years assigned for next season. Read an article yesterday that finally just came out and said it. She cant drive at a competitive level and is around to sell t shirts for Tony Stewarts team.

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