Skeptical of the Alien Overlord

paparazzo said:

You are effin joking right? That hayseed has been on enough race winning factory machines and he has one fluke title to show for it. He has 3, THREE damn wins in motoGP. Yet this forum will have you believe he's some sort of riding god. Putting him in the same sentence as Valentino Rossi tells me you are totally delusional, not rational and can not be reasoned with.

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Once upon a time I thought it was a fluke title as you did.

Not so much anymore. He should have had a much bigger points lead going into Valencia, and would have had it not been for Pedrosa.

Nicky never was gifted anything the way VR was.

It could only be considered a fluke if the season was perhaps 3 or 4 races long. Anyone can get lucky over a shorter sample size. There were enough races, VR had his chance to win that title and couldn't do it.

Worthy champion, and far more worthy than the Cheat of Tavullia ever was.

paparazzo said:

It must be some sort of feat to able to stuff your face with a bunch of testicles belonging to Casey and Nicky. So when Nicky the hayseed under performs, it's the Ducati that's the problem, but when Rossi didn't win, it was 'well Casey won on that bike' and because Rossi is a poor rider? GTFO!

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Nice try Papa Bozo, but I didn't say anything of the sort.

paparazzo said:

You are effin joking right? That hayseed has been on enough race winning factory machines and he has one fluke title to show for it. He has 3, THREE damn wins in motoGP. Yet this forum will have you believe he's some sort of riding god. Putting him in the same sentence as Valentino Rossi tells me you are totally delusional, not rational and can not be reasoned with.

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Just for you, hope you understand but I shall put them both in a sentence, whether delusional or not is of course your call.

In 2006, Nicky Hayden won the World MotoGP championship beating Valentino Rossi who crashed out in the last round in Valencia.

I personally think that sentence is rational and not delusional.

See, it can be done

paparazzo said:

You are effin joking right? That hayseed has been on enough race winning factory machines and he has one fluke title to show for it. He has 3, THREE damn wins in motoGP. Yet this forum will have you believe he's some sort of riding god. Putting him in the same sentence as Valentino Rossi tells me you are totally delusional, not rational and can not be reasoned with.

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No doubt 1 is a lesser number than 7, and I personally wouldn't detract from any of Rossi's titles, all of which were well merited imo.

Detraction from Rossi's titles is not, however, where this all started, as even you must know.

In fact, detraction from Nicky's 2006 title is where this all started, and that title was arguably more rather than less meritorious than others, given it was probably the one year in the last decade or more when the bikes were most even and the number of individual race winners the greatest; it could have been even more so given Colin Edwards lost a race on the last corner, Casey Stoner lost a race on the last corner on a lowly satellite bike on remaindered tyres, and even KRJR on a home made bike went fairly close iirc; Troy Bayliss who hadn't ridden a MotoGP bike all year got off a plane and won a race. Nicky was hardly HRC's number one boy either. Valentino had every opportunity to win that title, even apart from throwing his bike down the track in the last race, he was in his 3rd year as Yamaha's unquestioned number 1 and leading "development" rider, and by all arguments from those of your ilk responsible for any deficiencies in the 2006 bike.

Even if Nicky only had 1 year at the very top in him rather than times and/or the GP bike racing formula turning against him he still had that one year, and it is the childish resentment by Valentino's fans of his championship win, a childishness which on the evidence of recent events may be shared by VR himself even at age 36, which started all the rancour, and perhaps also formed many of the remaining posters on this "Rossi Haters" forum.

Yeah and in 2006 if you remember, Nicky was testing testing testing, every opportunity he got. Where was Rossi? Driving rally cars and F1 Ferrari's thinking he had the title in the bag after his 2005 performance.

kurre said:

Not to belabor the point, but I think Hayden literally did have the worst title defense in MotoGP history in 2007. I wasn't using hyperbole. I'm pretty sure that's statistically true. I remember reading that on one of those lists of random facts on the motoGP.com website written by Dr. Martin Rains (or however you spell his name). I haven't checked but I think he had just over 100 points that season.

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I think Kenny Jr. had a worse defence in 2001.

paparazzo said:

You are effin joking right? That hayseed has been on enough race winning factory machines and he has one fluke title to show for it. He has 3, THREE damn wins in motoGP. Yet this forum will have you believe he's some sort of riding god. Putting him in the same sentence as Valentino Rossi tells me you are totally delusional, not rational and can not be reasoned with.

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A fluke that Rossi cracked under pressure? Hayden had his own problems that year, a couple of races he had issues with a new clutch and another one he got bowled out by his teammate.

Everyone makes out that only Rossi suffered bad luck that year, who knows what would have happened if Loris Capirossi hadn't been injured in that incident at Catalunya, he may well have won it himself.

We can all go on about "ifs and buts" however if you are top of the championship at the end of a 16-17-18 race season then you deserve to be there.

I wouldnt go as far as saying Rossi was an outright cheat UNTIL Sepang when he cheated unquestionably.

But, before that then yes I think he has just played the numerous advantages he's been given. However with the definition of cheating, it's open to interpretation:

cheat
tʃiːt/
verb
verb: cheat; 3rd person present: cheats; past tense: cheated; past participle: cheated; gerund or present participle: cheating

1.
act dishonestly or unfairly in order to gain an advantage.

noun
noun: cheat; plural noun: cheats

1.
a person who behaves dishonestly in order to gain an advantage.

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michaelm said:

No doubt 1 is a lesser number than 7, and I personally wouldn't detract from any of Rossi's titles, all of which were well merited imo.

Detraction from Rossi's titles is not, however, where this all started, as even you must know.

In fact, detraction from Nicky's 2006 title is where this all started, and that title was arguably more rather than less meritorious than others, given it was probably the one year in the last decade or more when the bikes were most even and the number of individual race winners the greatest; it could have been even more so given Colin Edwards lost a race on the last corner, Casey Stoner lost a race on the last corner on a lowly satellite bike on remaindered tyres, and even KRJR on a home made bike went fairly close iirc; Troy Bayliss who hadn't ridden a MotoGP bike all year got off a plane and won a race. Nicky was hardly HRC's number one boy either. Valentino had every opportunity to win that title, even apart from throwing his bike down the track in the last race, he was in his 3rd year as Yamaha's unquestioned number 1 and leading "development" rider, and by all arguments from those of your ilk responsible for any deficiencies in the 2006 bike.

Even if Nicky only had 1 year at the very top in him rather than times and/or the GP bike racing formula turning against him he still had that one year, and it is the childish resentment by Valentino's fans of his championship win, a childishness which on the evidence of recent events may be shared by VR himself even at age 36, which started all the rancour, and perhaps also formed many of the remaining posters on this "Rossi Haters" forum.

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2006 was a great season if you are a motorcycle racing fan.

Not so good a season if you are a VR fan.

I think what is understated with regards to Hayden is that it was obvious HRC was shifting to Pedrosa as their main focus. Nicky did well in spite of not having that de factor number 1 status some have enjoyed over the years.

I don't think he's a "cheat" as such however he has a talent of swaying peoples opinions.

For example, when he was winning 5 straight titles, everything was cool, then when the likes of Lorenzo, Stoner and Pedrosa came along and challenged him like nobody had before, the spiel about all the electronics and rider aids suiting the 250 riders was spouted, I think Rossi himself called them the "playstation generation" and so the myth was born these guys were only winning because of the likes of traction control etc. and don't get any credit for it and most people aren't knowledgeable enough to know that traction control has been around on production bikes since at least the late 80's so it must have appeared on a race bike before that. However according to the church of Rossi it's only been around since 2006.

kurre said:

I'm glad that statement came up because it's related to the original questions I had at the beginning of this thread.

Do you guys actually think Rossi is a cheater somehow? I have a hard time believing that. I think that Rossi is himself like a corporation, a branch of the "MotoGP" family that makes up a large portion of their overall profits. Because of that, decisions related to him are very political. Also, he has so much brand power that he can say something like "Lorenzo and Marquez are cheaters" and 100 million people or whatever believe him. To me, he doesn't seem so much like a cheater as he does like a 19 year old son of an important politician who can crash his car into you then threaten to have you jailed if you report him.

I suppose I'm making a distinction between "someone who tries to take advantage of his obvious advantages" and "someone who outright cheats."

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As 22 said about Sepang that was all about cheating to gain an advantage.

Your analogy of Rossi as a corporation and so on is more of an ethics issue than anything. I'd argue he's both an unethical competitor as well as a cheat.

Call me an ......., but while no one can take his titles away from him, they are suspect on some level to me because of the advantages he was given, that no other competitor had a chance of gaining.

Sure you can say well he was only taking advantage of what was presented to him, but it veers into an unethical area that I feel he needs to be judged on no matter what. Others saw their advantages taken away because their team happened to do a better job than the rest, meanwhile Rossi was GIVEN advantages to try an alleviate shortcomings of his own team.

That is disgusting.

So Rossi finishes 2nd this season by merely a few points and 2nd last year in the top 4 of "aliens" and doesnt deserve his seat?

Please! Pedrosa finised 4th the last 2 season, he should definitly lose his seat right?

The Rossi hate on this forum is so deep it's funny, please return under your bridge until the next season start. This is getting old.

The only time rossi is a good sportsman is when he is winning. This is when he is at his best with the subtle mind games in the press conferences and other interviews. If he is losing, he unfailingly turns into a petulant child, whining and crying and making fun of or otherwise ridiculing the winner. And yes, when he is in the process of losing, he unquestionably also turns into an outright cheat.

In the early years, he won more than lost, so we saw more of the former behavior rather than the latter. These days, it's the other way around and we are getting to see what he is really made of. It's not attractive.

Anybody ever see a fake smile on Lawson, Rainey, Hailwood? (I know there are many others we could mention.) Those guys were hard, but had character. This boy from Tavulia, if I went to dinner with him, I'd be wondering when I was going to get stabbed in the back.

APEX said:

So Rossi finishes 2nd this season by merely a few points and 2nd last year in the top 4 of "aliens" and doesnt deserve his seat?

Please! Pedrosa finised 4th the last 2 season, he should definitly lose his seat right?

The Rossi hate on this forum is so deep it's funny, please return under your bridge until the next season start. This is getting old.

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Of course he deserves his seat.

However any hate for Rossi on here is miniscule, and I mean by multiple orders of magnitude, in comparison with the recent widespread hatred of MM by Rossi partisans, and past hatred including to some extent on here of many of his former rivals, not that calling critics of Rossi's recent behaviour "haters" is a viable defense of the indefensible on any case.

APEX said:

So Rossi finishes 2nd this season by merely a few points and 2nd last year in the top 4 of "aliens" and doesnt deserve his seat?

Please! Pedrosa finised 4th the last 2 season, he should definitly lose his seat right?

The Rossi hate on this forum is so deep it's funny, please return under your bridge until the next season start. This is getting old.

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You're missing the point.

Being on the M1 or the RCV guarantees a top 4 finish every year if you run all of the races. Rossi also was put back on one of those bikes because him battling it out for P5-10 on the Ducati was not attractive to Dorna...since it had the nasty habit of really putting Stoner's accomplishments into true perspective. That perspective was not good for the VR fanbase at large.

Second, there are no aliens on the grid. Stoner was the last true alien out there.

APEX said:

The Rossi hate on this forum is so deep it's funny, please return under your bridge until the next season start. This is getting old.

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And yet you keep coming back....

Bern1 said:

Anybody ever see a fake smile on Lawson, Rainey, Hailwood? (I know there are many others we could mention.) Those guys were hard, but had character. This boy from Tavulia, if I went to dinner with him, I'd be wondering when I was going to get stabbed in the back.

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Ahh like in Goodfellas, when Joe Pesci thought he was getting made, and he got dead...

kurre said:

There's been a big line drawn in the sand, and you're either "for Rossi" or "against him," and logic and reason have been thrown out the window. I don't mean to harp on an old subject or beat a dead horse or whatever, but I'm under the impression that this event and your opinion about it will effect future discussions in the next few seasons about any issue.

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Excellent description. Certainly it's become hyper sensitive, but in November 2006 to November 2007, giving credit to Hayden was like saying today to a bopper, Marquez didn't do anything wrong at Sepang & Valencia 2015. Then from November 2007 giving credit to Stoner was like saying to a bopper today Marquez didn't do anything wrong at Sepang & Valencia 2015. Get the picture? No seriously, if you're interested go back into the archives of this forum. You will see just how adamant Rossi fans were, very similar to members like Papabozzo--angry, emotional, delusional, and lacking any logic rationale to formulate a sane conclusion. However, imagine a forum where the Boppabozzos were the majority of members. Worse probably because back then Rossi’s status was unassailable to this ilk. It still is in their minds!-- however, back then there was no independent discerned pattern of petulant behavior, generally understood implications of exclusive advantages and the effect of favoritism to artificially inflate the records.

Rossi fans are already 'tired' of members discuss calling Rossi out on a month old meltdown, meanwhile they raged for years and years about how Rossi got "robbed" (sound familiar) in 06/07. Consider this, these two titles he lost to honest kids doing their best to navigate a stacked series and against the political and very real mechanical disfavor. Nicky was the number 2, to his rookie teammate even in 06, testing the evo to eventually realize the Pedrocycle for 07, meanwhile Stoner was the 4th choice for Ducati (after Rossi vetoed him to be his teammate). These are the types of real details that have had massive implications on the records going forward! Stoner would have suffered the same political obstacles that a cloutless Hayden dealt with at Repsol under Alberto Puig, who at the time had so much influence as to be a practical partner of Carmelo. Though with Stoner's talent, it would have been near impossible to deny on a factory Yamaha. If Rossi can summon Carmelo to his motorhome, Puig shared an office at Dorna, this should give u pause to understand Hayden's political work environment which would have had a undeniable impact on his results. It only took real Spanish clout and riding talent in Lorenzo that finally saw him get 'equal' status, a situation UNACCEPTABLE to Rossi! Consider this when analyzing Hayden's tenure at Honda, which was similar to the Rossi equivalent of having a teammate and manager who hated Nicky and would do anything with the ample political pull to prop up Pedrosa.

Seriously, you guys need to read Nietzsche, and spend time living in a country where the culture and subtleties of the morality are totally different to what you were brought up with. And then another and yet another. And then you might start get that it's all quite arbitrary...

If you want to get indignant or offended or excited or whatever, it's your choice. But you need to realise it is a choice, an arbitrary one, not a position based on fact. These are your choices, at the end of the day there are only four:

1. I'm Not Ok-You're Ok
2. I'm Not Ok-You're Not Ok
3. I'm Ok-You're Not Ok
4. I'm Ok - You're Ok

Wake up and smell the money guys: MotoGP is a TV show first and a sport second and I think Rossi gets that better than any of his competitors ever did - I would guess that he gets that instinctively rather than intellectually, by dint of his personality, but it doesn't matter. So, the combination of Rossi's incandescent charm his talent for racing motorcycles and the platform offered by MotoGP, was a perfect storm that was always going to be undeniable. It's a chemical reaction. My advice: get over it.

It's just another trip to the zoo: oh look, there's the misogynist, teenage boy, there's the rich sociopath, there's a herd of political idealists, there's the super-salesman, there's the analytical, introverted genius, look at the narcissist!... they're all there in their climate controlled glass enclosures. And they can't agree on anything, because they're values are unconsciously constrained by their personalities and their culture, but they're not quite self aware enough to realise it. Not yet... Watch this space.

They've been developing Grand Prix motorcycles for how long? Since 1949 right? And they keep getting better as a result of all that trial and error, mental and physical graft, and the odd moment of brilliant inspiration. Imagine how good they would be if they'd been at it for three million years. There'd be perfect right? Well, that's who we are: three million years of evolution later, here we all are. Perfect in every way. And that's why we are all always absolutely correct, even when we violently disagree.