Silverstone GP 2013: RACE (spoilers)

michaelm

3609841378979627

No team orders at Sachsenring 2012, or apparently at PI 2012 although it was perhaps too early to tell, both probably to the detriment of a riders' championship win by a Honda rider.


 


Without necessarily any reference to the recent Silverstone race, I think it is getting close to the point both in this year's championship and in terms of recent championship results (HRC one in the last 6 years) that the HRC riders will have been strongly encouraged not to take each other out, even if this has not applied from the get-go as you (very likely correctly) say. I think Nakamoto is just about up for seppuku if HRC don't win this year for any reason, let alone as a result of "friendly fire".   

Click to expand...

Interesting the revelation this week that in spite of this HRC were desperately trying make the Stoner Wild Card a reality at PI which would have IMO opinion taken points away from both Dani and Marc. That speaks for itself regarding the philosophy at HRC. As opposed to equating the possibly disasterous consequences of MM in particular trying to match Stoner's speed, Honda undoubtably regard Stoners presence as not only a way to subdue and nullify the opposition but also to make both their factory riders faster and to hell with the 'risk'. Also, I would add to this, they want the RCV213 to go as fast as possible in any given situation in front of the eyes of the racing world. Product over rider.


 


The comparisons between Casey and Freddie are largely derogatory on here and focus on a supposed weak mentality and a propensity to quit - not, in terms of raw talent. When Rossi left Honda there was a press conference in which the then head of HRC, was it Nakajima?, was asked directly if you could choose a replacement who would it be. Without hesitation he answered "we choose Freddie", a sentiment echoed many times throughout the company. There are two riders venerated in the halls of HRC and they're not Doohan or Rossi - (although this has much to do with Vale's defection I concede that). For a company like HRC to even pay lip service to a rider over the machinery was until Spencer unprecedented. Testament to the lasting legacy of both Freddie and Casey. Why? 'because they make Honda bike go fast' Regarding Marc, HRC adore him too - for the same reason. Make no mistake, he's been encouraged not deterred to give Pedrosa .... and up the ante.


 


The team order suggestion Jum? like I say re-visit the Catalunya race thread - it's there. To me, team orders are anathema to the HRC philosophy as it stands today. Nicky would most likely agree wholeheartedly.


 


To suggest that this was happening not only by the sixth round of the championship but imposed upon a rider that HRC not only believes can win the championship as a rookie..but also want to win the championship as a rookie, is indeed 'ludicrous'.

Arrabbiata1

3609851378980698



Interesting the revelation this week that in spite of this HRC were desperately trying make the Stoner Wild Card a reality at PI which would have IMO opinion taken points away from both Dani and Marc. That speaks for itself regarding the philosophy at HRC. As opposed to equating the possibly disasterous consequences of MM in particular trying to match Stoner's speed, Honda undoubtably regard Stoners presence as not only a way to subdue and nullify the opposition but also to make both their factory riders faster and to hell with the 'risk'.


 
.

Click to expand...

My view as well, but did not want to bring it up as a well known Stoner fanboy. No way would Stoner abide by team orders at PI if he had wild-carded, and this is the one track where he quite possibly would be competitive even with a year out given his record there even on a latter day Ducati.

Fanboy ism at its worst I'd say.....

Looking at this again I dont think he held back that much


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BlVP8nX2Nhw


 


He had a pretty good run back to Pedrosa's back wheel in the final lap too, allthough no pass was attepted...


 


Gotta say tho, it was still early in the season and he had just binned it from 2nd in Mugello, so maybe thats why there was less attack than expected, 3rd is better than 2 races in the gravel.


 


Apologys for crappy vid Quality, its not mine i just found it to make a point.

What I find frustrating is not so much the speculation that HRC told Marc to be cautious around Dani - which I doubt - (they may well have reiterated the consequences of taking out a team mate...maybe). It is the conclusion after Catalunya that this was reflected in his riding and that you could clearly see that he was holding back a reluctant to pass Pedrosa...even that he may have been under orders not to. (Revisit the thread Jum). Further, that he compromised his usual - shall we say - customary zeal and agression following a pep talk from Honda. I completely disagree.

557953

3609901378987258

Looking at this again I dont think he held back that much


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BlVP8nX2Nhw


 


He had a pretty good run back to Pedrosa's back wheel in the final lap too, allthough no pass was attepted...


 


Gotta say tho, it was still early in the season and he had just binned it from 2nd in Mugello, so maybe thats why there was less attack than expected, 3rd is better than 2 races in the gravel.


 


Apologys for crappy vid Quality, its not mine i just found it to make a point.

Click to expand...

I made that point too on the raqce thread at the time.


 


MM is fast from the moment the lights drop - we know that. Like Stoner he is also - contrary to belief quite measured - although his style does not always necessarily betray that. These bikes have tyre temp indicators - MM is quite prepared to play a waiting game before he pounces. He was primed to pass Dani by the end of the race - but perhaps left it too late knowing that he had the requisite speed.

Arrab, I did say I am used to watching racing from F1 and that in my opinion Marc held back from making a rash move. I did say the team had probably told him not to do anything that would take out his team mate. I still can't really see why that is such an outrageous idea. Given Marc's reputation from motogp 2 it's hardly shocking to think someone in the team might have a quiet word with him and warn him that what he got away with beofre wouldn't be welcomed against his own team mate in this series.


 


I may only be an armchair fan, but I have been watching motor sports long enough that I feel I can recognise what I have seen before and my opinion was that Marquez was holidng back slightly, I took it that he would only do so because he'd been warned against his usual 'do or die' barging moves that I'd read so much about, if I am proved wrong then I'd be happy to say so. In this matter it's all about opinions, yours if different to mine, but we can live with it I am sure. We're never going to know exactly what was or wasn't said but I still stand by what I think unless you or anyone else can prove otherwise to me, that's all.

Lyria

3609941378988357

Arrab, I did say I am used to watching racing from F1 and that in my opinion Marc held back from making a rash move. I did say the team had probably told him not to do anything that would take out his team mate. I still can't really see why that is such an outrageous idea. Given Marc's reputation from motogp 2 it's hardly shocking to think someone in the team might have a quiet word with him and warn him that what he got away with beofre wouldn't be welcomed against his own team mate in this series.


 


I may only be an armchair fan, but I have been watching motor sports long enough that I feel I can recognise what I have seen before and my opinion was that Marquez was holidng back slightly, I took it that he would only do so because he'd been warned against his usual 'do or die' barging moves that I'd read so much about, if I am proved wrong then I'd be happy to say so. In this matter it's all about opinions, yours if different to mine, but we can live with it I am sure. We're never going to know exactly what was or wasn't said but I still stand by what I think unless you or anyone else can prove otherwise to me, that's all.

Click to expand...

We are for the large part all of us 'armchair fans' - not a derogatory dig at you, merely an acknowledgement of the the fact that these are all armchair observations. Like I say, perhaps there was a caveat from someone...you say 'the team' - who precisely? because I very much doubt it came out of Marc's garage. "Not to do anything that might take out his team mate" - this is bike racing Angel., in other words, - don't race against Dani if you can help it?


 


Talking F1 then, (which I stopped following in about 1984 so you are eminently more qualified to pass comment than I) I can think of several drivers off the top of my head who were renowned for flagrantly ignoring team directives and even made a career out of doing so. Hunt being a prime example. Not suggesting that Marc is one of those but I really do not believe the hesitancy you perceived at Catalunya was anything to do with words of caution from "the team" in respect of his team mate.I don't think there as any due call for this at the time and I don't think that it'd necessarily make the slightest difference. You consistently have ignored the point I keep making  - contrary to your belief - that Marquez has probably been told to by HRC to attack Pedrosa and race him like anyone else. Completely the opposite. "Slightly held back" because it was Dani...c'mon, that's ridiculous. Furthermore, show me your OP in which you and others ever said "slightly". Over the last few months It's gone from a serious directive from The Honda Racing Co orporation, to a quiet word in his ear concerning the racing wisdom of 'team mate ettiquette' (which actually is simply not a concept in the HRC paradigm) which lead him to, ha, wait for it - "slightly hold back" from attacking Dani, meaning he couldn't ultimately make the pass. Read the thread again, watch the race again, that's all.


 


Since the first race this season I think we have all seen a rider who has not only come of age, but his move to the big class may well have been a rite of passage. You claim he held back from amking a'rash move' on Dani, actually, throughout the season so far,  I can't think of many of those 'rash moves' that made him so renowned in Moto 2 - he's made rookie mistakes, but not as many as people anticipated - and it certainly wasn't expected that he'd win so many races, irrespective of Jorge's absence and injury. People forget that Jorge Lorenzo himself was extremely wild in his 125 and 250 days and that his move to the top class combined with his new management saw him emerge as a completely different sportsman in all respects. The change came from within. As Jumkie says - there is no doubt that Dorna and possibly HRC did read the riot act to MM pre season, but I believe that a line was drawn on that conversation. I also believe that not only would HRC be highly unlikely to have even informally warned him prior to Catalunya about the possible ramifications of taking out his team mate (as to now no one has suggested why at this particular juncture in the season there was even a need to do this), but also that your assertion that Marc was "holding back slightly" is nonsense. Firstly, my response isn't singularly levelled at you, but I can assure you "holding back slightly" was not the original contention. Secondly - in racing parlance, how exactly do you "hold back slightly?"  particularly when your name is  Marc Marquez Alenta. New one on me. The idea of MM holding back - but only slightly, is...absurd. You are using the term 'slightly' to backtrack and temper your original assertion, which you are now "holding back slightly". I don't need to continue my defence on this because the original assertions (I stress by many other members, not just yourself) are in the original race thread for everyone to read.


 


Any caution that you detected was far more likely to be attributed to the fact that an over zealous Marc had crashed the race before at Mugello. He's a clever kid - as a rookie his leaning curve has been phenomenal, but after Indy both Jorge and Dani opined that he is absolutely on the limit and neither are prepared to take the risks that his riding currently entails.


 


So, I maintain that it's far more likely that if anything Alzamora et al. told him to cool it after he binned it the race before at Mugello as was mentioned in the race thread and on here by by '557'. I really, passionately do not agree that Marc ....... Marquez held off attacking Dani because he'd been told to ..... foot around him. Once again, Catalunya is a damn hard circuit to make a clean pass and MM had crashed out of the previous round. If there were any thoughts of collecting Dani crossing his mind at the time, they IMO owed as much to the latter than any pep talk from the team about caution towards and around his team mate. Furthermore any 'caution' came from within, ie -his judgement as a racer out there on the track amid a race situation as opposed to a "quiet word" pre race from "the team" in his garage, concerning respecting the collective team and individual championship interests of Dani Pedrosa.

Oh Christ, I can see that the Kraken awakes and is about to post a response to my railings.


 


I'm sorry Jum...I take it all back.


 


I'm off

Okay Arrab, you're right, even when there are team orders they can be ignored. Only this year in F1 at Sepang both Red Bull drivers were expected to turn down their engines and get to the end of the race. Vettel however chose not to do that, he decided to pass his team mate before doing so and it caused all kinds of hell to break loose all over the web. Mostly people felt he was unfair even though from experience Webber had tried the exact same move before that (more than once) and not managed to make it stick. My argument is that trying the move and failing is no better than actually pulling it off, but that's another story.


 


I never at any time suggested that before that particular race they had a word in Marc's ear, for me it was more of a general you're a rookie in the sport and this is what we expect of you type of thing, including (maybe) something like don't take out your team mate if you know what's good for you. You agree yourself that something like that could have happened so we're not disagreeing there. Good to know.


 


I have read most of the relevant stuff from the old thread, sorry, can't sit and read too much in one go especially when it involves scrolling down several pages to find the relevant thread and then relevant page etc. I said 'he tip toed around to avoid taking out his team mate'. Well having watched part of it again (once again, sorry, can't sit and watch racing on the computer for long either sadly) I stand by it. That is not (in my opinion) the way Marquez usually sits behind someone in that situation. I know, you're going to tell me again how Catalunya is a hard track to pass on and Dani is master of the art of not being passed, I acknowledge that, I really and truly do.  


 


Maybe you're right in some of what you say, maybe the crash in Mugello was more of a reason for Marquez to hold back, maybe it was down to the track and the fact he just couldn't get by, maybe he was already thinking of the championship and being wary so he didn't throw away good points, we'll never know for sure what went through his mind at that point as I've said before. I just can't recall having seen that kind of caution from him behind anyone else other than his team mate,  I put two and two together and perhaps I can't count and my version adds up to five. One thing I do know for sure, you and I are never going to completely agree on this, we both have our own way of seeing it and as much as you think I'm wrong, I think you are too. It's fine not to agree Arrab and we keep discussing it over and over all we're going to do is end up really annoying one another,  I so don't want to do that. You're a hell of a nice guy who has probably forgotten more about motogp than I'll ever know and understand and I truly do respect your opinion, I just can't share it on this occasion I'm afraid, sorry.

I didnt see the sarcasm but then again Brits are a bit odd. Their sense of humor makes no sense. Have you ever seen a Mel Brooks movie Lyria?

That's British humor at its finest.( or worst) It's not funny or smart at all.

Arabb is just being condescending and arrogant. He tries to confuse you with his big vocabulary to show us how smart he is. You missed it but Barry Machine used to turn the tables on him and make him look like a fool. He takes his angst out on others because he's probably still angry about that

Hes nothing but a mind bully. Dont give in to him. Tell him to go mind .... himself

Besides his theory is totally wrong. There are no team orders or team meetings between HRC riders

Theres no way HRC has ever spoke to Marc or told him how he should race. Arabb is off his rocker thinking otherwise

Sloth_27

3609621378964293

Ouch! Haha, but I feel the same everytime people try to suggest that Rossi or Crutchlow's pace is "as good as the leaders" in the closing stages. Who cares, the race is well and truly over by that stage. You could probably cruise for the entire race and then use your tyres to put in the fastest lap right at the end - but I doubt the guys on the podium will care.

Click to expand...

That is the common theme amongst boppers. Because Rossi runs down Bautista a couple of times late in a race, they run with the idea that he has front runners pace. In fact, he is nowhere near the fron t runners times. Silverstone is just one example that this has happened. At the half way point of Silverstone, He was 6+ seconds behind the leaders and dropped on the average a 1/2 second per lap the rest of the way to finish 11+ seconds behind.. Bops must have never heard of race analysis.

MotoChick

3610361379028166

I didnt see the sarcasm but then again Brits are a bit odd. Their sense of humor makes no sense. Have you ever seen a Mel Brooks movie Lyria?
That's British humor at its finest.( or worst) It's not funny or smart at all.

Arabb is just being condescending and arrogant. He tries to confuse you with his big vocabulary to show us how smart he is. You missed it but Barry Machine used to turn the tables on him and make him look like a fool. He takes his angst out on others because he's probably still angry about that

Hes nothing but a mind bully. Dont give in to him. Tell him to go mind .... himself

Besides his theory is totally wrong. There are no team orders or team meetings between HRC riders

Theres no way HRC has ever spoke to Marc or told him how he should race. Arabb is off his rocker thinking otherwise

Click to expand...

Mel Brookes is British, priceless.

Arrabbiata1

3609851378980698

Interesting the revelation this week that in spite of this HRC were desperately trying make the Stoner Wild Card a reality at PI which would have IMO opinion taken points away from both Dani and Marc. That speaks for itself regarding the philosophy at HRC. As opposed to equating the possibly disasterous consequences of MM in particular trying to match Stoner's speed, Honda undoubtably regard Stoners presence as not only a way to subdue and nullify the opposition but also to make both their factory riders faster and to hell with the 'risk'. Also, I would add to this, they want the RCV213 to go as fast as possible in any given situation in front of the eyes of the racing world. Product over rider.


 


The comparisons between Casey and Freddie are largely derogatory on here and focus on a supposed weak mentality and a propensity to quit - not, in terms of raw talent. When Rossi left Honda there was a press conference in which the then head of HRC, was it Nakajima?, was asked directly if you could choose a replacement who would it be. Without hesitation he answered "we choose Freddie", a sentiment echoed many times throughout the company. There are two riders venerated in the halls of HRC and they're not Doohan or Rossi - (although this has much to do with Vale's defection I concede that). For a company like HRC to even pay lip service to a rider over the machinery was until Spencer unprecedented. Testament to the lasting legacy of both Freddie and Casey. Why? 'because they make Honda bike go fast' Regarding Marc, HRC adore him too - for the same reason. Make no mistake, he's been encouraged not deterred to give Pedrosa .... and up the ante.


 


The team order suggestion Jum? like I say re-visit the Catalunya race thread - it's there. To me, team orders are anathema to the HRC philosophy as it stands today. Nicky would most likely agree wholeheartedly.


 


To suggest that this was happening not only by the sixth round of the championship but imposed upon a rider that HRC not only believes can win the championship as a rookie..but also want to win the championship as a rookie, is indeed 'ludicrous'.

Click to expand...

 


They did pay Hailwood not to ride the year they left GPs. I would think he was up there in the rider pantheon for Honda.

MotoChick

3610361379028166

I didnt see the sarcasm but then again Brits are a bit odd. Their sense of humor makes no sense. Have you ever seen a Mel Brooks movie Lyria?

That's British humor at its finest.( or worst) It's not funny or smart at all.

Arabb is just being condescending and arrogant. He tries to confuse you with his big vocabulary to show us how smart he is. You missed it but Barry Machine used to turn the tables on him and make him look like a fool. He takes his angst out on others because he's probably still angry about that

Hes nothing but a mind bully. Dont give in to him. Tell him to go mind .... himself

Besides his theory is totally wrong. There are no team orders or team meetings between HRC riders

Theres no way HRC has ever spoke to Marc or told him how he should race. Arabb is off his rocker thinking otherwise

Click to expand...

Strange little rant there. 


 


Especially as Arrabb is arguing that no-one spoke to Marques about how he should race wrt to Dani, not the other way around.


 


Maybe the "big vocabulary" has you confused


 


Arrabb has always come across as polite to those are polite to him.  Lyria is unfailingly polite, BM less so.

Arrabbiata's logic is 100% sound.


 


And Jum sending his "....." forward to reply for him... wow, that's farce redefined.

Jumkie

3611961379184579

I agree, Arrabi's logic is sound (always is). However given we are both actually speculating, logic to the contrary can be equally sound. Until there is confirmation one way or the other, either assertion is reasonable. Given we are speculating what the kid was "thinking", then proving either way is difficult. So...we assert a reasonable logic for and against. Now lets examine your infamous take for example, for two years u asserted that Ducati were doing nothing particularly special for Rossi. Despite ur "sound" and "reasonable" logic, the actual evidence, well documented overwhelming and repeatedly confirmed u were laughably wrong. I also feel Motochick's post was odd, and I can assure u I had nothing to do with it. In fact, lets make a deal (extended to anybody). If u can prove that is me, I will send Kropos site $1,000.00. If I (or anybody) prove its not me, u send an equal amount. Deal? Put ur money where ur mouth is buddy.

Click to expand...

 


Jum, you must be deaf (but on purpose). Repeating forever that I was "denying" Ducati made any effort during Rossi's stay, is lunatic. I always said they didn't make any special effort in the beginnig (fact - Preziosi was hoping Rossi would ride the existing bike fast), and when they did (GP11.1 or whatever) my contention with you was that they didn't make the effort "for Rossi", as you insisted, but they made it "for Ducati". Just as whatever they do now is certainly not "for Dovi".


 


Compare this to your masterpiece prediction of a "NASA developed Ducati" for Rossi, that would be a threat to a "level playing field", and you'll have a better idea on who's laughably wrong around here. 


 


<span style="font-size:14px;Got it now? No? When you don't get it don't be ashamed, ask. Don't come again six months later like a broken record with always the same, lame stories.


 


<span style="font-size:14px;Ah, and thanks for not using your "....." tor reply to me. Have a beer, cheers!