Sepang Test 1 Thread

[Gaz]

Same track conditions every day. Rain then slowly drying track. Nothing different than the past days.

Tracks change every day so even from official day 1, to official day 2 you cannot say same track conditions but by all means may be able to say similar.

Just as a guide but just because the ambient temperature is the same it does not mean the same level of grip exists, nor that the wind is from the same direction, nor that the track has dried the same in all places, nor that the rubber laid down is having a positive/negative effect and so forth.

IMO here but a guy I have spoken with who has raced at high levels would always say that one of the pure fun aspects of testing is the constant changes that occur in behaviours of the track and bike, as just when you think you have it dialled, you become a chump.

I would be shocked if Stoner fan and the opposed didn't look at stoners times compared to yesterday. I don't understand why that alone is disrespectful. Nothing wrong with comparing.

Comparisons are absolutely fair and it is why one cannot determine a true or truly fair comparison as without insight into that the riders are actually testing and/or trying to achieve one is purely guessing the intent of the test.

For mine, CS would have been tasked to test a component or setting only not to test a race setup for, as we know each rider's race setup is different and thus any 'race setup' he tested would be as useless as is the wishes of those wanting him back.

The riders in the official tests would certainly have been testing some of the componentry that was tested by their team test riders (and despite all the ridicule, at least the Ducati test rider was close in times to his team riders as the other manufacturers languished behind) but moreso would have been testing whilst looking for a race pace setup. They may have done longer runs to test the performance on used rubber which may not have been done earlier in the week and so forth.

Personally, I reckon it would make ridiculously interesting reading (not that we would even find out) to know the test schedule and purpose for all riders so that we could sit and watch for ourselves. I suspect that knowing what was happenning and why would open our eyes to the way the teams work and how the different riders approach the same task.

We can all put sh*t on CS for testing and wonder 'what if', but as I have said a few times and elsewhere, the fact remains that he is irrelevant to the main game today as is our opinion of him.

 

[Gaz]

Agreed.

It looks like Rossi was correct about the 2017 concept being a mistake. He firmly redirected Yamaha's attention back towards evolving the 2016 concept. Great that MV will benefit from the old hand guiding the team's direction too.

Will it be enough? It looks like Ducati has made a huge step forward in terms of mid-corner turning.

But the question now is louder ............... who's direction was followed with the design of the 2017 bike that caused/led to so many issues or, was it a case of 'perfect storm' in that on it's day, it was magic but getting that day was tough?

IMO here, but Zarco will be a good tell tale.

 

[RCV600RR]

But the question now is louder ............... who's direction was followed with the design of the 2017 bike that caused/led to so many issues or, was it a case of 'perfect storm' in that on it's day, it was magic but getting that day was tough?

IMO here, but Zarco will be a good tell tale.

It was Mav who liked the 17 chassis. Mav was much quicker than Rossi immediately on the 17, so while Rossi complained about his feeling with the bike, he "went against his instinct" and persisted with the bike after Mav's domination of the entire pre-season. He started whining more and more while Mav kept destroying the opposition - even during the first few races.

Then, it all started coming apart at Jerez.

The positive thing is that they both agree on following the 16 direction now, so hopefully we will see two strong Yamahas. I feel like their presence was missed last year. Thankfully, Ducati was fantastic and filled the spot of the missing Yamahas.

 

[RCV600RR]

BTW - Dovi is raving about his feeling with the Ducati. Augurs well.

 

[Gaz]

It was Mav who liked the 17 chassis. Mav was much quicker than Rossi immediately on the 17, so while Rossi complained about his feeling with the bike, he "went against his instinct" and persisted with the bike after Mav's domination of the entire pre-season. He started whining more and more while Mav kept destroying the opposition - even during the first few races.

But the bike at initial test would have been designed around VR's feelings not MV as before test 1, MV was not able to ride the bike, thus the bike was either based on VR, JL (who had long signed to leave) or wild hunches back at the factory.

Mav liking it initially does not mean that he had a say in it's development up until that point and nor going forward (although the going forward coudl be a fair bet that his performances influences Yamaha's thinking)

My take on it is that Yamaha listened in latter 2016, then again in 2017 but got it wrong or more likely, went to far one way then struggled because of the rules (limited testing and bike changes) to revert back to a workable bike


On a personal level, I find it very difficult to believe that Yamaha would not have listened to their golden goose .... they may well have gotten things wrong but I doubt that they did not listen

 

[synn]

You yourself would seem simultaneously to be an example of the type of fan he disdained, and to provide justification for him doing so.

As I said, those were the only times that were available to be discussed then, not that I personally discussed them anyway, and he has had times in testing competitive with the actual race riders frequently in the past including last year iirc when he was 4 years into his retirement, so if it is the case that he finally can't jump off his boat and run competitive times now that he is 5 years retired it is not a great knock on him I would have thought.

Interesting that those who agreed with you are 2 posters who always slated Stoner even when he was topping the time sheets and winning races and world titles in the actual show, reinforcing my point that there are posters who are as obsessed with Stoner in a negative sense at least as much as those who are obsessed with him in terms of rating or over-rating him positively, and you yourself seem to have little to say other than hooray Rossi, boo Stoner or whoever might be Rossi's threat de jour currently or was a threat to him in the past.

If your point is that posters on a fan forum are biased this is hardly grounds for stopping the presses, and you are rather obviously among those including me who are biased.

It’s hilarious when someone uses the “Biased” accusation in this forum. Really?

By the way, I am not the only “Kind of fan” Casey Stoner has a disdain for. Casey Stoner has a disdain for those who worship at his altar just as much. Maybe more. Casey Stoner was only in it for Casey Stoner and when Casey Stoner couldn’t handle the heat anymore, he took his ball and went home. And Unlike his contemporaries he couldn’t care less about supporting the next generation of riders either.

Being a great motorcycle racer is not just riding fast and not even winning a couple of championships. It’s about having the mental fortitude to show up and ride even when things are not exactly how you want them to be. And that’s why Nicky Hayden, with one championship less is a hundred times greater a racer than Stoner ever will be.

 

[michaelm]

It’s hilarious when someone uses the “Biased” accusation in this forum. Really?

By the way, I am not the only “Kind of fan” Casey Stoner has a disdain for. Casey Stoner has a disdain for those who worship at his altar just as much. Maybe more. Casey Stoner was only in it for Casey Stoner and when Casey Stoner couldn’t handle the heat anymore, he took his ball and went home. And Unlike his contemporaries he couldn’t care less about supporting the next generation of riders either.

Being a great motorcycle racer is not just riding fast and not even winning a couple of championships. It’s about having the mental fortitude to show up and ride even when things are not exactly how you want them to be. And that’s why Nicky Hayden, with one championship less is a hundred times greater a racer than Stoner ever will be.

You have accused me in the past of not reading your posts ( I do, but speed read them, your prose style not exactly being one to savour apart from anything else), but a major point of the post to which you replied was that everyone on a fan forum such as this obviously including me is extremely likely to be biased. I have no problem with anyone having a different opinon from mine btw and arguing it, my problem is with those who consider that only other people are biased, among whom I strongly suspect you number.

In any case as I have also said people were talking about Stoner's lap times when his were the lap times available to be talked about, and had moved on, it would rather seem to be you who is pre-occupied with Stoner. I guess motherhood statements as in this most recent post are at least an improvement on argumentum ad hominem towards other posters, your usual stock in trade.

Appropos the real testing, Ducati and Jack Miller are looking reasonably good thus far, which pleases me, supporting Ducati being my default position prior to Stoner, and Miller being both a compatriot and someone I followed avidly when he contended in moto 3, and it being difficult for me to continue to support Jorge Lorenzo now.

 

[RCV600RR]

But the bike at initial test would have been designed around VR's feelings not MV as before test 1, MV was not able to ride the bike, thus the bike was either based on VR, JL (who had long signed to leave) or wild hunches back at the factory.

Mav liking it initially does not mean that he had a say in it's development up until that point and nor going forward (although the going forward coudl be a fair bet that his performances influences Yamaha's thinking)

My take on it is that Yamaha listened in latter 2016, then again in 2017 but got it wrong or more likely, went to far one way then struggled because of the rules (limited testing and bike changes) to revert back to a workable bike


On a personal level, I find it very difficult to believe that Yamaha would not have listened to their golden goose .... they may well have gotten things wrong but I doubt that they did not listen

Definitely the 17 bike sought to address the weakpoints which Rossi told Yamaha to fix. My point was that Rossi was skeptical of the 17 bike after its debut (his contemporaneous comments suggest that), whereas Mav was extremely fast which caused Rossi to doubt his initial sensations.

When Rossi rode the bike more, he grew increasingly unconvinced but Mav's immense speed meant that he wasn't confident enough to throw the toys out of the pram looking for changes.

 

[synn]

You have accused me in the past of not reading your posts ( I do, but speed read them, your prose style not exactly being one to savour apart from anything else), but a major point of the post to which you replied was that everyone on a fan forum such as this obviously including me is extremely likely to be biased. I have no problem with anyone having a different opinon from mine btw and arguing it, my problem is with those who consider that only other people are biased, among whom I strongly suspect you number.

In any case as I have also said people were talking about Stoner's lap times when his were the lap times available to be talked about, and had moved on, it would rather seem to be you who is pre-occupied with Stoner. I guess motherhood statements as in this most recent post are at least an improvement on argumentum ad hominem towards other posters, your usual stock in trade.

Appropos the real testing, Ducati and Jack Miller are looking reasonably good thus far, which pleases me, supporting Ducati being my default position prior to Stoner, and Miller being both a compatriot and someone I followed avidly when he contended in moto 3, and it being difficult for me to continue to support Jorge Lorenzo now.

Buddy, if you wanted a prose style the author devotes hours on, you should subscribe to Reader’s Digest, not be on a forum.

 

[Gaz]

By the way, I am not the only “Kind of fan” Casey Stoner has a disdain for. Casey Stoner has a disdain for those who worship at his altar just as much. Maybe more. Casey Stoner was only in it for Casey Stoner and when Casey Stoner couldn’t handle the heat anymore, he took his ball and went home. And Unlike his contemporaries he couldn’t care less about supporting the next generation of riders either.

Suggest you research a little on this point as he helped a number of riders of smaller capacity classes greatly when in the paddock and even made mention of the disparity in treatment between these same riders in his farewell/retirement speech.

He certainly has not started a junior academy or anything of similar nature just as many riders who have been and gone have not, and nor do they have the responsibility to do so either.

As for CS, well I know people who have met him (at and away from the track) and funny thing is, those that had dealings when in race mode call him a 'prick' (to soften it a little - pun intended) but outside of race mode (and some are the same people) say that he is an incredibly likable guy, albeit a total 'introverted' character.

You are however correct in that he took his ball and went home ......... and should be admired for it as over the years we have heard many people spit a dummy and suggest that if X does not happen then I may as well quit, only to stay as the bluff is called or X happens.

IMO here, but to threaten to quit and do so is a very admirable trait

 

[Gaz]

Definitely the 17 bike sought to address the weakpoints which Rossi told Yamaha to fix. My point was that Rossi was skeptical of the 17 bike after its debut (his contemporaneous comments suggest that), whereas Mav was extremely fast which caused Rossi to doubt his initial sensations.

When Rossi rode the bike more, he grew increasingly unconvinced but Mav's immense speed meant that he wasn't confident enough to throw the toys out of the pram looking for changes.

My wonder or point is that the bike would have been primarily based on VR's feedback at day 1 as JL was running out the door.

The fact that it went to sh*t is what I find most interesting and wonder how much was Rossi having a bad moment and Yamaha listening, Yamaha doing their own thing, tyres, spec electronics or, as I suspect a major combination of all which in the end meant a very small operational window that was hard to meet.

No doubt Mav's speed gave Yamaha a similar sensation to Ducati of the CS era in as much as 'if one can do it then the bike is fine' but likewise, the fact that Mav got slower and less consistent points to something progressive which for me begs the question

 

[Gaz]

Trying to get confirmation but have just seen a report that Lorenzo has cut the fastest time ever of the track on a bike.

Will likely get bettered again but this is getting to be fun and his times seem to show that he may be feeling better with the bike ........... but again, testing is testing and not a race so time will tell but early signs are good

 

[michaelm]

Trying to get confirmation but have just seen a report that Lorenzo has cut the fastest time ever of the track on a bike.

Will likely get bettered again but this is getting to be fun and his times seem to show that he may be feeling better with the bike ........... but again, testing is testing and not a race so time will tell but early signs are good

The tyre with which Vinales had his early season success was withdrawn if you recall, but that still means the 2017 bike had a narrow operating window dependent on one rider’s riding style and one particular tyre I guess, while the 2016 bike still seemed to be pretty good for the Tech 3 riders.

 

[Gaz]

The tyre with which Vinales had his early season success was withdrawn if you recall, but that still means the 2017 bike had a narrow operating window dependent on one rider’s riding style and one particular tyre I guess, while the 2016 bike still seemed to be pretty good for the Tech 3 riders.

Had forgotten about that Mike so appreciate the reminder, but yes, it does just further reinforce the narrow operating window which, for any bike in where Rossi has played a part in development is unusual.

If we look at history, the Honda's were quite rideable no matter who was on then when he was there and as we know, all Yamaha's in his first visit were very competitive. Even the Ducati had an even level of competitive ness whilst he was so employed and on his return to Yamaha again (or still is a better word), all bikes were similarly competitive.

Up until 2017 which just further gets my inquisitive mind working as to what it was, or what the combination of things was that caused such a small operating band.

Yes, we can say that JL left and his input may have helped produce a good product (heck, look at Ducati now but that is to do a disservice to Dovi and the factory changes).

Perhaps 2017 was an abomination of a year where Yamaha tried the HRC approach of engineers know best only for them to be slapped by a #46 glove.

Time will tell I guess but it was an unusual year in that aspect

 

[libby]

Jorge just set a new lap record 158.830 he's on it like a car bonnet lol

 

[michaelm]

Had forgotten about that Mike so appreciate the reminder, but yes, it does just further reinforce the narrow operating window which, for any bike in where Rossi has played a part in development is unusual.

If we look at history, the Honda's were quite rideable no matter who was on then when he was there and as we know, all Yamaha's in his first visit were very competitive. Even the Ducati had an even level of competitive ness whilst he was so employed and on his return to Yamaha again (or still is a better word), all bikes were similarly competitive.

Up until 2017 which just further gets my inquisitive mind working as to what it was, or what the combination of things was that caused such a small operating band.

Yes, we can say that JL left and his input may have helped produce a good product (heck, look at Ducati now but that is to do a disservice to Dovi and the factory changes).

Perhaps 2017 was an abomination of a year where Yamaha tried the HRC approach of engineers know best only for them to be slapped by a #46 glove.

Time will tell I guess but it was an unusual year in that aspect

I agree with you, I think the Yamaha engineers probably got too clever a la Honda. In my previous incarnation as a Lorenzo fan I thought his departure might have something to do with it as well.

 

[synn]

Looks like most teams and riders are doing tyre degradation and other visually non exciting things today. But we might see a flurry of fast laps in the last 20 minutes or so.

 

[Barbedwirebikerr]

Years past the tests were played on foxtel. Nothing at All for this test. At least they have started to play some older races.

Today i watched the czech gp 1996. Epic race.

 

[michaelm]

As someone on crashnet opined, Miller’s and Rabat’s times do make you wonder about the quality of the Honda equipment provided to Marc VDS last year.

 

[synn]

As someone on crashnet opined, Miller’s and Rabat’s times do make you wonder about the quality of the Honda equipment provided to Marc VDS last year.

Miller said multiple times that MarcVDS always got the bottom of the barrel. Updates take ages to arrive and factory support was marginal.

Them and Tech 3 seem to be prime candidates to make a switch when KTM is ready with their satellite program.