Rossi was Ducatis 2nd choice??

Jumkie · Jan 24, 2011

ptk50 said:
Hey Jumkie,

You're doing a good job of coming across like a wannabe Machiavelli. Just because he didn't specifically repudiate some of your arrogant claims re JB, doesn't in any way mean he agrees with them - so put your "checks" where they belong. Oh and btw "lessor" is someone who leases something to somebody - so the connection - "lessor" to satellite teams is not quite as misunderstandable to the rest of us as it seems to be for you.

Thanks for pointing out my spelling error. You're doing a good job coming across like a wannabe grammar spell checker. Haha. I went back and edited my post, I meant to spell "lesser" but in my hurry to reply I spelled "lessor". But I'm sure you knew what I meant, and RCV spelled it correctly as "lesser". So does this change the gist of my post for you?

BTW, going back to read my post I realized I made several other mistakes, I said "day" meant to say "say". I misspelled "friend", I forgot to put a period in my second check list. Etc...

Is that "Machiavelli enough for you? Hahaha. Nah really, sorry about the tone, I was just reciprocating the cut-to-the-chase tone in which RCV600 replied.

So Burgess used the word "lesser", do you still want to say he [JB] meant "lessor" because I made the spelling error? You see what you just did with your logic?

Here is his quote:

I can watch some of these lesser riders on the Ducatis and you can see that the bikes are, in my opinion, unsuitably set for what they want to try and do with them. I’m not saying anybody’s doing a bad job. I see these things wobbling around. When I think, clearly, if we had that issue with Valentino it’d be fixed in 80 seconds, but some riders don’t like the hardness of the bike, because they don’t get the feel. But then when they’re riding around and it’s too soft they’re not going forward either. So you’ve got to be able to create the feel with the hardness to avoid all that sloppiness. I don’t think there are any issues in the bike that are a big worry to me. LINK

And this is what I said he said: "JB arrogantly said from a distance (after he took a dig at Stoner) that he could fix the Ducati in less than a minute."

So I did find my mistake in summarizing JB. I said "less than a minute", but he actually said "80 seconds", so I stand corrected, I should have said "less than two minutes."

But according to you and RCV, he meant "satellite"? Lets see, what reference did he make?: I found only two: He explicitly says "on the Ducatis" and "these things" wobble. So you also interpret "lesser" rider to mean 'satellite'? Lesser can be in reference to anything here, I know he thinks lesser of Stoner, perhaps he menat he thinks lesser of anybody not named Rossi, or he thinks lesser of anybody not named Stoner, which would include Hayden, a factory rider, etc. Not exactly a smoking gun, eh? So we disagree. No big deal buddy. Except, I'm right and your wrong.

Tom · Jan 24, 2011

Jumkie said:
Here is his quote:

And this is what I said he said: "JB arrogantly said from a distance (after he took a dig at Stoner) that he could fix the Ducati in less than a minute."

So I did find my mistake in summarizing JB. I said "less than a minute", but he actually said "80 seconds", so I stand corrected, I should have said "less than two minutes."

But according to you and RCV, he meant "satellite"? Lets see, what reference did he make?: I found only two: He explicitly says "on the Ducatis" and "these things" wobble. So you also interpret "lesser" rider to mean 'satellite'? Ok, I don't. So we disagree. Except, I'm right and your wrong.

The funny thing is that even if he was talking about the satellite riders, and even if he didn't mean a literal 80 seconds, he was still arrgant and wrong

Jumkie · Jan 24, 2011

Tom said:
I don't think many reasonable people would disagree with you there, J4rno is suggesting that the Ducati engineering department is so inferior that JB can do something with 2 days of Rossi's less than top ten testing that they couldn't do with 4 world champions over 4 years.

Oh, its so easy to get a rise out of certain people. When I posted Lorenzo's comments in the other thread stating who he thought his main competition was gonna come from Stoner I knew I'd net poor o'l J4rno twisting it as a slight on Rossi (surprised Talps has chimed in on JLo).

BTW, correct me if I'm wrong, but I also remember Rossi saying his biggest competition before last season would be Stoner, maybe it was a slight at Lorenzo and Pedro, who turned out to be, at least in points, his main rivals, eh. I mean, c'mon, JLo is just speculating, and he did mention not to rule out the great Rossi. Which is correct because he's always managed to bounce back from a subpar year and/or machine, regardless that he's with a new manufacture.

Speaking of manufacture, lest be real here, Ducati is doing everything it can to make the bike suitable for a title contention. Why J4rno keeps downplaying this is amazing. Yes, he is correct in that they made major changes in the past, but like Mental said above, the difference was the delivery, here is what we got as oppose to, tell us what to make, sky is the limit.

J4rno, buddy, pal, amigo, dude, can we just accept Ducati is pulling out all the stops to "improve" the Ducati for Rossi like they were not motivated to do for their previous and current riders not with the initials VR? So they are making "radical" changes (as described by others in the know), good for them, its about time. I'm just pointing out the special attention VR gets in the sport as part of my argument that this should be combined with any analysis of the championship.

ptk50 · Jan 24, 2011

Jumkie said:
Thanks for pointing out my spelling error. You're doing a good job coming across like a wannabe grammar spell checker. Haha. I went back and edited my post, I meant to spell "lesser" but in my hurry to reply I spelled "lessor". But I'm sure you knew what I meant, and RCV spelled it correctly as "lesser". So does this change the gist of my post for you?

BTW, going back to read my post I realized I made several other mistakes, I said "day" meant to say "say". I misspelled "friend", I forgot to put a period in my second check list. Etc...

Is that "Machiavelli enough for you? Hahaha. Nah really, sorry about the tone, I was just reciprocating the cut-to-the-chase tone in which RCV600 replied.

So Burgess used the word "lesser", do you still want to say he [JB] meant "lessor" because I made the spelling error? You see what you just did with your logic?

Here is his quote:

And this is what I said he said: "JB arrogantly said from a distance (after he took a dig at Stoner) that he could fix the Ducati in less than a minute."

So I did find my mistake in summarizing JB. I said "less than a minute", but he actually said "80 seconds", so I stand corrected, I should have said "less than two minutes."

But according to you and RCV, he meant "satellite"? Lets see, what reference did he make?: I found only two: He explicitly says "on the Ducatis" and "these things" wobble. So you also interpret "lesser" rider to mean 'satellite'? Lesser can be in reference to anything here, I know he thinks lesser of Stoner, perhaps he menat he thinks lesser of anybody not named Rossi, or he thinks lesser of anybody not named Stoner, which would include Hayden, a factory rider, etc. Not exactly a smoking gun, eh? So we disagree. No big deal buddy. Except, I'm right and your wrong.

Hi Jumkie,

Maybe this would be the best reply to you:

0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000

and then you can rewrite it to mean what you want - just like you've done with the posts from RCV and me.

You are certainly carrying on like a Machiavelli -- here are some of your best wannabe's:

"You're doing a good job coming across like a wannabe grammar spell checker" - if I did this with your posts I'd never keep it down to the few lines I used last time

"You see what you just did with" - No, but I'm sure you'll tell me what I did

"But according to you and RCV, he meant "satellite" - I simply pointed out the possible connection between lessor and satellite - the rest of the claim is your subjective unilateral extrapolation

"So you also interpret "lesser" rider to mean 'satellite" - Machijumkie strikes again with subjective wordmongering

However, Satellite riders are LESS experienced, ride LESS fast, get paid LESS money, have LESS top level support, are LESS interesting. Because satellite riders are LESS valuable to the factories, they get LESS upgrades and as LESSEES have to pay for their bikes - So maybe there is some connection beteween satellite teams and LESSxx

Your finale - "Except, I'm right and your wrong" couldn't be LESS right

Anyway - to get back to the theme - maybe JB was too outspoken, but then after all he's from Oz and we should back off a little. The Duc was THE bike at the start of the 800 formula and has ImO suffered from lack of consequential development as 1st Yamaha and then Honda have caught up. I will conjecture that this was because they lacked a top rider who also understood the workings of the bike and a chief engineer who could direct that feedback to the development team. NH did his best, but he and Stoner were riding different bikes and Nicky didn't have the clout to get all he (thought) that he needed. That's exactly what they've corrected now with Rossi and JB and their proven track record. Just remains to be seen what they'll do with it in 2011 or 2012.

ptk50 · Jan 24, 2011

Jumkie said:
Oh, its so easy to get a rise out of certain people. When I posted Lorenzo's comments in the other thread stating who he thought his main competition was gonna come from Stoner I knew I'd net poor o'l J4rno twisting it as a slight on Rossi (surprised Talps has chimed in on JLo).

BTW, correct me if I'm wrong, but I also remember Rossi saying his biggest competition before last season would be Stoner, maybe it was a slight at Lorenzo and Pedro, who turned out to be, at least in points, his main rivals, eh. I mean, c'mon, JLo is just speculating, and he did mention not to rule out the great Rossi. Which is correct because he's always managed to bounce back from a subpar year and/or machine, regardless that he's with a new manufacture.

Speaking of manufacture, lest be real here, Ducati is doing everything it can to make the bike suitable for a title contention. Why J4rno keeps downplaying this is amazing. Yes, he is correct in that they made major changes in the past, but like Mental said above, the difference was the delivery, here is what we got as oppose to, tell us what to make, sky is the limit.

J4rno, buddy, pal, amigo, dude, can we just accept Ducati is pulling out all the stops to "improve" the Ducati for Rossi like they were not motivated to do for their previous and current riders not with the initials VR? So they are making "radical" changes (as described by others in the know), good for them, its about time. I'm just pointing out the special attention VR gets in the sport as part of my argument that this should be combined with any analysis of the championship.

Hey Jumkie,

don't fall into shock - I agree completely - Ducati is (and needs to) pull out all the stops to make a real and consistent package out of their powerhouse

dwoodhouse · Jan 24, 2011

Tom said:
The funny thing is that even if he was talking about the satellite riders, and even if he didn't mean a literal 80 seconds, he was still arrgant and wrong

Anyone got that pot/kettle picture?

Jumkie · Jan 24, 2011

Ptk50, im starting to like u.

dwoodhouse · Jan 24, 2011

ptk50 said:
Anyway - to get back to the theme - maybe JB was too outspoken, but then after all he's from Oz and we should back off a little.

Why should you back off because he is from Oz? Aussies are permanently taking digs at each other. I think it is JB's dry sense of humour coming through and it has been written up as a stab in Stoner's back.

Whether he meant it or not, I think it simply comes down to why on earth would JB take back his comment when pressed by Jumkie of all people? Maybe when asked about it by Jumkie, the look he gave was one of "this imbecile thought I was serious, there is nothing I can say to help him".

Tekniqs · Jan 24, 2011

"When I think, clearly, if we had that issue with Valentino it’d be fixed in 80 seconds"....anyone think he's talking about the then current m1 ride of rossi's and not the ducatis?

dwoodhouse · Jan 24, 2011

Tekniqs said:
"When I think, clearly, if we had that issue with Valentino it’d be fixed in 80 seconds"....anyone think he's talking about the then current m1 ride of rossi's and not the ducatis?

Well that would destroy a long line of arguing.

Gaz · Jan 25, 2011

J4rn0 said:
I say he is listened to more because he has that kind of credit, not because of "preferential treatment" as some like to make us believe. They listened to him and JB in the same way at Yamaha. Who wants to make us believe something here...

If it is indeed 'credit' as you assert, to me it does show the preference given to Rossi over and above other riders.

I say this as by listening to VR due to this credit, you therefore also imply that the other riders were not listened to as they had no credit, but how were they to obtain this 'credit' of which you speak if Ducati would not listen?

Ergo, by Ducati putting a higher credence on VR's comments over and above others, is that not preference irrespective of real or imagined credit?

Gaz

stiefel · Jan 25, 2011

ptk50 said:
Hi Jumkie,

Maybe this would be the best reply to you:

0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000

and then you can rewrite it to mean what you want - just like you've done with the posts from RCV and me.

You are certainly carrying on like a Machiavelli -- here are some of your best wannabe's:

"You're doing a good job coming across like a wannabe grammar spell checker" - if I did this with your posts I'd never keep it down to the few lines I used last time

"You see what you just did with" - No, but I'm sure you'll tell me what I did

"But according to you and RCV, he meant "satellite" - I simply pointed out the possible connection between lessor and satellite - the rest of the claim is your subjective unilateral extrapolation

"So you also interpret "lesser" rider to mean 'satellite" - Machijumkie strikes again with subjective wordmongering

However, Satellite riders are LESS experienced, ride LESS fast, get paid LESS money, have LESS top level support, are LESS interesting. Because satellite riders are LESS valuable to the factories, they get LESS upgrades and as LESSEES have to pay for their bikes - So maybe there is some connection beteween satellite teams and LESSxx

Your finale - "Except, I'm right and your wrong" couldn't be LESS right

Anyway - to get back to the theme - maybe JB was too outspoken, but then after all he's from Oz and we should back off a little. The Duc was THE bike at the start of the 800 formula and has ImO suffered from lack of consequential development as 1st Yamaha and then Honda have caught up. I will conjecture that this was because they lacked a top rider who also understood the workings of the bike and a chief engineer who could direct that feedback to the development team. NH did his best, but he and Stoner were riding different bikes and Nicky didn't have the clout to get all he (thought) that he needed. That's exactly what they've corrected now with Rossi and JB and their proven track record. Just remains to be seen what they'll do with it in 2011 or 2012.

I don't get your references to Machiavelli.

Goatboy · Jan 25, 2011

stiefel said:
I don't get your references to Machiavelli.

Playing a dirty political game.

& I'm getting lazy in my old age, from wikipedia:

"Niccolò Machiavelli’s best-known book concentrates on the possibility of a "new prince", rather than the more traditional subject of a hereditary prince. To retain power, the hereditary prince must carefully maintain the socio-political institutions to which the people are accustomed; whereas a new prince has the more difficult task in ruling, since he must first stabilize his new-found power in order to build an enduring political structure. That requires the prince being concerned with reputation but also being willing to act immorally. As a political scientist, Machiavelli emphasises the occasional need for the methodical exercise of brute force, deceit, and so on."

Yellow propaganda

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LnOtyUHLQ-k[/media]

ptk50 · Jan 25, 2011

Goatboy said:
Playing a dirty political game.

& I'm getting lazy in my old age, from wikipedia:

"Niccolò Machiavelli’s best-known book concentrates on the possibility of a "new prince", rather than the more traditional subject of a hereditary prince. To retain power, the hereditary prince must carefully maintain the socio-political institutions to which the people are accustomed; whereas a new prince has the more difficult task in ruling, since he must first stabilize his new-found power in order to build an enduring political structure. That requires the prince being concerned with reputation but also being willing to act immorally. As a political scientist, Machiavelli emphasises the occasional need for the methodical exercise of brute force, deceit, and so on."

Yellow propaganda

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LnOtyUHLQ-k[/media]

Yeah old Machi - was a non-biking Italian dude, who amongst other things liked to 'twist' other peoples' words - used things like "if you don't express your agreement with me - then you must be against me" aka if you are not (actively) my friend, then you must be my enemy. Or more related to the thread - If you don't say JB is not arrogant, then you are agreeing that he is arrogant. It was all meant to tweak Jum, but then he wrote something I completely agreed with - so because of that and last night's single malt - I'm going to drop the Machi line in this thread

Jumkie · Jan 25, 2011

Ptk50, u could've just said ".......".

stiefel · Jan 25, 2011

ptk50 said:
Yeah old Machi - was a non-biking Italian dude, who amongst other things liked to 'twist' other peoples' words - used things like "if you don't express your agreement with me - then you must be against me" aka if you are not (actively) my friend, then you must be my enemy. Or more related to the thread - If you don't say JB is not arrogant, then you are agreeing that he is arrogant. It was all meant to tweak Jum, but then he wrote something I completely agreed with - so because of that and last night's single malt - I'm going to drop the Machi line in this thread

Uhm, I've never read Il Principe, but I know about Machiavelli, and the general usage of expressions like machiavellianism, machavellian tactics, even macheavillian intelligence. I just found the reference in this context to be a bit, well, odd. But I get what where you're coming from.

So Jumkie, is it better to be loved or feared?

Jumkie · Jan 25, 2011

stiefel said:
Uhm, I've never read Il Principe, but I know about Machiavelli, and the general usage of expressions like machiavellianism, machavellian tactics, even macheavillian intelligence. I just found the reference in this context to be a bit, well, odd. But I get what where you're coming from.

So Jumkie, is it better to be loved or feared?

Loved and feared. But nobody is fearing me buddy (or shouldn't be, if you do, you have no place cruising the internet). I think Ptk was just saying I sound like a ..... Its ok, it was fair, and I deserved it, wouldn't be the first or last. I suppose its the ill effects some experience when they disagree with my opinion. Its frustration that comes with losing a debate I guess. But like I said, I enjoyed his flustered reply so much that it made me start to like him, even though his post was technically, factually, and most importantly, logically, all wrong. I suppose the tickle comes from his Machiavelli reference, since the guy is obviously somewhat educated, the laugh of course is, education doesn't guarantee one can comprehend.

stiefel · Jan 26, 2011

Jumkie said:
Loved and feared. But nobody is fearing me buddy (or shouldn't be, if you do, you have no place cruising the internet). I think Ptk was just saying I sound like a ..... Its ok, it was fair, and I deserved it, wouldn't be the first or last. I suppose its the ill effects some experience when they disagree with my opinion. Its frustration that comes with losing a debate I guess. But like I said, I enjoyed his flustered reply so much that it made me start to like him, even though his post was technically, factually, and most importantly, logically, all wrong. I suppose the tickle comes from his Machiavelli reference, since the guy is obviously somewhat educated, the laugh of course is, education doesn't guarantee one can comprehend.

It's ok Jumkie. I can react overly allergic when people resort to such quasi-intellectual language, especially if improperly used. But no worries, Ptk explained why he used his reference and although I personally wouldn't use it in this context, I can see his reasoning.

J4rn0 · Jan 26, 2011

Gaz said:
If it is indeed 'credit' as you assert, to me it does show the preference given to Rossi over and above other riders.

I say this as by listening to VR due to this credit, you therefore also imply that the other riders were not listened to as they had no credit, but how were they to obtain this 'credit' of which you speak if Ducati would not listen?

Ergo, by Ducati putting a higher credence on VR's comments over and above others, is that not preference irrespective of real or imagined credit?

Gaz

That's too complicated. It's very simple... Credit is earned. Here we are not speaking just Rossi's credit, but that of his team as well, starting with JB. These guys have earned probably the best credit in MotoGP as the most capable in assisting with the development of a MotoGP bike. Any manufacturer would listen to them especially after what they've done with the Yamaha M1.

Stoner has earned incredible credit for being fast, he does not have any comparable credit when it comes to sorting out a bike. They of course listened to him attentively, but on the basis of his feedback (and that of all other Ducati riders) they were not able to sort out the problems in spite of massive changes like big bang engine and new chassis.

Now they've hired the best team, all the guys with the best credit for sorting MotoGP bikes, earned over many years of exceedingly successful work. And they are doing something together in earnest. Personal "preferences" have nothing to do with what's going on.

Jumkie · Jan 26, 2011

stiefel said:
It's ok Jumkie. I can react overly allergic when people resort to such quasi-intellectual language, especially if improperly used. But no worries, Ptk explained why he used his reference and although I personally wouldn't use it in this context, I can see his reasoning.

You've been quite the guerilla droll lately.

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