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Rossi was Ducatis 2nd choice??

I keep hearing all this talk about how good the Rossi crew are at developing a bike and that if there is not enough time or fitness to develop the 2011 bike then surely the 2012 bike we be a masterpiece. As a result I reflect back on the last time the Rossi crew developed a new bike for a new set of rules - 2007.



If I recall the 2007 Yamaha package was the reason why Stoner beat Rossi to the championship or so the boppers would have us believe and Rossi himself. Now I know the first response could well be that it wasn't the Yamaha but it was the Michelins. It is my understanding that Rossi was the lead Michelin rider and had the most input into the tyre development. So Rossi and crew developed the 2007 Yamaha package and it was somewhat of a disappointment.



Following the same line of thought it was also stated by the boppers that Ducati developed a bike that was far superior to the other bikes in 2007 and that Stoner had no contribution to its success, conclusion, it was all Ducati.



So if we put the 2 lines of thought together we have a manufacturer (Ducati) who is very successful at getting a new formula right and a rider/crew that last time they did it were not as successful. So if Ducati come out with a lump in 2012 who's fault will it be and if it is a rocket who should get the accolades?
 
Jumkie said:
Loved and feared. But nobody is fearing me buddy (or shouldn't be, if you do, you have no place cruising the internet). I think Ptk was just saying I sound like a ..... Its ok, it was fair, and I deserved it, wouldn't be the first or last. I suppose its the ill effects some experience when they disagree with my opinion. Its frustration that comes with losing a debate I guess. But like I said, I enjoyed his flustered reply so much that it made me start to like him, even though his post was technically, factually, and most importantly, logically, all wrong. I suppose the tickle comes from his Machiavelli reference, since the guy is obviously somewhat educated, the laugh of course is, education doesn't guarantee one can comprehend.
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You didn't bring up machiavelli because one of the princes with whom he was concerned was cesare borgia, commonly known as duke valentino?
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J4rn0 said:
Now they've hired the best team, all the guys with the best credit for sorting MotoGP bikes, earned over many years of exceedingly successful work. And they are doing something together in earnest. Personal "preferences" have nothing to do with what's going on.
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So despite giving feedback for 4 years Stoner doesn't have the credit for Ducati to bother listening to him (and their other highly successful riders) because he only got one world title. Right.
 
Mental Anarchist said:
So if we put the 2 lines of thought together we have a manufacturer (Ducati) who is very successful at getting a new formula right and a rider/crew that last time they did it were not as successful. So if Ducati come out with a lump in 2012 who's fault will it be and if it is a rocket who should get the accolades?
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exactly my thoughts

adding to that,

what bums me out is that this bopper attitude is not only supportive to vale (laguna seca,jerez) but also adds extra pressure if something goes wrong and,god forbid, he finishes second.duc and rossi know very well that slow and steady progress (the realistic goal and attitude supporters should have) isn't enough for the media,so excuses must be readily availible (not implying his injury is fake,i know how a messed up shoulder feels , i'm just saying rossi is cursed and blessed to be able(and his whole crew obliged) to make a bigger deal out of anything compared to other riders/teams because of their obligation to be the best



sure ,there are many people so obsessed with rossi that they can not see things clearly enough to get that even the best might get beaten and as a result build up myths that as a result almost devalue the guy on the surface.kinda funny how its the same in any cultural context.but then most people sooner or later have this awakening that even being the goat does not imply being always the absolut best at anything and always have made the best choices.and on just a side note,how many people actually work on a bike?now matter how big the role of one individual in that,one person couldn't possibly be responsible for the resulting bike
 
Mental Anarchist said:
Following the same line of thought it was also stated by the boppers that Ducati developed a bike that was far superior to the other bikes in 2007 and that Stoner had no contribution to its success, conclusion, it was all Ducati.
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We keep seeing the case put forward that Ducati didn't listen to Stoner, his front end complaints have been ignored for three years. So why should we believe that any of his other input was taken on board?
 
Goatboy said:
We keep seeing the case put forward that Ducati didn't listen to Stoner, his front end complaints have been ignored for three years. So why should we believe that any of his other input was taken on board?
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First of all, you fail to accept that the current Ducati effort is extraordinary. Reality--NO. Validation of future points--UNLIKELY.

Second, I think you missed the logic in Mental's post. Hint: having it both way.
 
J4rn0 said:
That's too complicated. It's very simple... Credit is earned. Here we are not speaking just Rossi's credit, but that of his team as well, starting with JB. These guys have earned probably the best credit in MotoGP as the most capable in assisting with the development of a MotoGP bike. Any manufacturer would listen to them especially after what they've done with the Yamaha M1.



Stoner has earned incredible credit for being fast, he does not have any comparable credit when it comes to sorting out a bike. They of course listened to him attentively, but on the basis of his feedback (and that of all other Ducati riders) they were not able to sort out the problems in spite of massive changes like big bang engine and new chassis.



Now they've hired the best team, all the guys with the best credit for sorting MotoGP bikes, earned over many years of exceedingly successful work. And they are doing something together in earnest. Personal "preferences" have nothing to do with what's going on.
wink.gif
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All true, but I think we are being pre-emptive on all sides of this debate without need, other than the need to have something to discuss in the off-season.



It is definitely true that rossi +/- jb have a fantastic record for developing/sorting bikes. However this has all been on intrinsically similar aluminium space frame chassis bikes. Whether this expertise is quickly transferable to the ducati, or whether the current ducati is sortable at all, remain to be seen, and the multiple changes underway at present will not constitute further evidence of development genius until they result in improvement of the bike in the hands of the race riders at race pace. If they can't sort it then I suspect nobody can, and stoner is off the hook as far as failure to develop the bike goes during his tenure.



In any case stoner needs to win a world championship for honda in the near future before his supporters including me can make much in the way of further claims for him; if he does whether he can develop ducatis or not will become a somehat moot point, and I suspect he will not care too much about how strongly valentino has developed the ducati in this eventuality.
 
Jumkie said:
First of all, you fail to accept that the current Ducati effort is extraordinary. Reality--NO. Validation of future points--UNLIKELY.

Second, I think you missed the logic in Mental's post. Hint: having it both way.
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I can't see any extraordinary changes so far, enlighten me please if i have missed something. Personally i think if Rossi is slow again in next test in one of his favourite tracks then we might see extraordinary effort from Ducati, but so far they are not doing any thing less or more compare to other manufacture's.



 
Jumkie said:
First of all, you fail to accept that the current Ducati effort is extraordinary. Reality--NO. Validation of future points--UNLIKELY.

Second, I think you missed the logic in Mental's post. Hint: having it both way.
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No I was focused exactly on the duality, the fact that it seems it is valid to only criticize one rider. & The common offence that has been taken because part of the development team for the RC211V, & the M1 seem to be held in such high regard by Ducati.



As to Ducati's current effort, I have about as much idea how large or small it is as you do, none. I must say it is fun to watch you try & cover all bases so that whatever happens this year you can quote yourself at season end & say "I predicted this"
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Pigsh, r u fing kiding? Haha, didnt u just preemtively giv VR a pass on the shoulder injury? Haha. Man, Im really believing the man does hav mind control over his parishioners.



About Ducatis effort, we both know the same, correct. The diff is u hav been singing in unison, a bopper choir, the hym, 'ducati isnt doing nothing special'. It truly is breathtaking to see the denial from such a public reality.
 
Jumkie said:
Pigsh, r u fing kiding? Haha, didnt u just preemtively giv VR a pass on the shoulder injury? Haha. Man, Im really believing the man does hav mind control over his parishioners.



About Ducatis effort, we both know the same, correct. The diff is u hav been singing in unison, a bopper choir, the hym, 'ducati isnt doing nothing special'. It truly is breathtaking to see the denial from such a public reality.
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I think you'll find I have said nothing of the sort on either count
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You have been playing the "Rossi is sandbagging" fiddle so that you can look smug at a later date for a few days now. Erecting sand bags to keep out the .... storm that will beseach your house should he indeed win. I call you out fatherfucker.
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michaelm said:
All true, but I think we are being pre-emptive on all sides of this debate without need, other than the need to have something to discuss in the off-season.



It is definitely true that rossi +/- jb have a fantastic record for developing/sorting bikes. However this has all been on intrinsically similar aluminium space frame chassis bikes. Whether this expertise is quickly transferable to the ducati, or whether the current ducati is sortable at all, remain to be seen, and the multiple changes underway at present will not constitute further evidence of development genius until they result in improvement of the bike in the hands of the race riders at race pace. If they can't sort it then I suspect nobody can, and stoner is off the hook as far as failure to develop the bike goes during his tenure.



In any case stoner needs to win a world championship for honda in the near future before his supporters including me can make much in the way of further claims for him; if he does whether he can develop ducatis or not will become a somehat moot point, and I suspect he will not care too much about how strongly valentino has developed the ducati in this eventuality.
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Agree.

As for Stoner winning another title, I think it is quite possible and surely I will be happy when that happens. He may not have been able to develop the Ducati into a "mainstream" MotoGP bike, but surely he's been able to ride it! And that's no small achievement.
 
J4rn0 said:
Agree.

As for Stoner winning another title, I think it is quite possible and surely I will be happy when that happens. He may not have been able to develop the Ducati into a "mainstream" MotoGP bike, but surely he's been able to ride it! And that's no small achievement.
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Won't you have to revoke your Bopper card? I don't think the Yellow Army will take kindly to you enjoying a Stoner win at the expense of Rossi.



Despite me liking Stoner and seeing his amazing ability to be fast, I'm still holding my breath. We talk about his speed on Honda as if its a new revelation sometimes, but frankly, he's been the 'fastest' guy for several years now. And he's managed only one title because of this issue with crashing. Now, I certainly put most of the blame at the foot of the PAST Ducati (as opposed to the NEW& IMPROVED more HIGHLY MOTIVATED Ducati), but even then, I worried Stoner will have some kind of crashing issues. The championship has been as much about who's fast as its been about who stays upright.
 
Jumkie said:
Won't you have to revoke your Bopper card? I don't think the Yellow Army will take kindly to you enjoying a Stoner win at the expense of Rossi.



Despite me liking Stoner and seeing his amazing ability to be fast, I'm still holding my breath. We talk about his speed on Honda as if its a new revelation sometimes, but frankly, he's been the 'fastest' guy for several years now. And he's managed only one title because of this issue with crashing. Now, I certainly put most of the blame at the foot of the PAST Ducati (as opposed to the NEW& IMPROVED more HIGHLY MOTIVATED Ducati), but even then, I worried Stoner will have some kind of crashing issues. The championship has been as much about who's fast as its been about who stays upright.
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Ah crap - been missing the posts - maybe Jumkie had my email notification turned off. Maybe it was just as well - I was getting concerned with Stiefel and Jum's quasi pleasantness which was sort of difficult to comprehend - almost sounded like they were blowing sweet stuff in some orifice. But Jum - I would never call you an ....... or a .... - at least not so directly - I only reply to your posts because they're so outrageously illogical - but then thats why they're so LoL. Anyway - getting back to the theme of the posting - Rossi & JB very successfully (re-) developed the 990 Yam, were no doubt at least partly to blame for the initial faults of the 800 in 2007, and equally to be praised for the developing the bike that has won the most races and every WC since. Now they - the most successful develoment and race winning team - are at Ducati - it cannot be a surprise that the Motivation level there has increased. The only times Ducati has looked like a good successful and motivated team were back in Capi's days, again in 2007 when they had by far the best & fastest bike on the grid and since then sporadically when Stoner has had a good weekend Aragon & PI being amongst the best. It's also a double edged blade for both VR/JB and Ducati - if they don't start winning WC's then their charisma will wane and equally Ducati will suffer and lose the "no good feedback from rider" excuse. As for the remark someone threw in about Stoner winning a season on the Honda and never having to look back on his yearlong inabillity to develop the Ducati - well let's wait for a season where he keeps it (the bike) upright - something that before and after the exception of 2007 he's not been so good at. Oh crap - agreed with Jumkie again that should get quasi-Stiefel's attention
 
ptk50 said:
As for the remark someone threw in about Stoner winning a season on the Honda and never having to look back on his yearlong inabillity to develop the Ducati - well let's wait for a season where he keeps it (the bike) upright - something that before and after the exception of 2007 he's not been so good at. Oh crap - agreed with Jumkie again that should get quasi-Stiefel's attention
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I guess you are referring to me, and I had thought I had been reasonably moderate in this debate, but I have never claimed to be without my own bias.



Rossi and jb are great developers, and the only riders I would compare to valentino in this regard are eddie lawson and mick doohan, both also true greats of the sport; I don't know enough about the riders prior to them.



Just on first principles it would be unlikely for stoner to be a comparable developer to rossi, and certainly no evidence exists for the proposition that he is. However the possibilities do exist that the ducati is not sortable with its current design, and also that ducati did not allow him to sort it as he wished; stoner has made comments to this effect concerning the latter which may be self serving, but your boy valentino also has said this in regard to not joining ducati in the past. My point is mainly that it might be a good idea to wait to see whether valentino can sort the thing first, and that the multiple changes being made have to be seen to work first before criticising stoner for not making them even if was able to.



If stoner becomes a multiple championship winner, I can live with him not being as good a developer as rossi, and I suspect he will be able to as well.
 
I have been considering reasons to support my hypothesis that Rossi and JB are not good developers of a new bike under new rules.



My attention was brought back to one of my first posts on here which even drew accolades from Talpa believe it or not. In this post I raised a view that JB in particular likes to eliminate faults rather than develop in advantages. Through eliminating faults they end up at an advantage by having a bike that is so damn easy to ride that it takes little effort (comparatively) to ride fast and as has been pointed out ... fast and mistake free wins championships.



Now how does this impact new bike under new rules? If Rossi and JB lead development of a new bike which they clearly did at Yamaha for 2007 and will do at Ducati for 2012 it seems reasonable that they would take this same approach - no faults but no individual strengths. Sounds good no? But what if this approach is too conservative in the first year or 2 of new rules? Ducati surely came out with a bike that was far from conservative in 2007 and in the hands of Stoner it was an absolute weapon. Maybe the conservative approach does not pay dividends until the rules are more mature and the manufacturers close the gaps on individual advantages leaving a well rounded package the one to be on.
 
Mental Anarchist said:
I have been considering reasons to support my hypothesis that Rossi and JB are not good developers of a new bike under new rules.
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That's a tough premise to start from, hence the difficulty to find support. I'd say they are good enough at dev under new rules, I just wouldn't say they are divine about it as some would like to believe.
 
Goatboy said:
I think you'll find I have said nothing of the sort on either count
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You have been playing the "Rossi is sandbagging" fiddle so that you can look smug at a later date for a few days now. Erecting sand bags to keep out the .... storm that will beseach your house should he indeed win. I call you out fatherfucker.
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very well put and farrrrkkking funny to watch isn't it
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