Rossi was Ducatis 2nd choice??

J4rn0 said:

Yes, the media are confusing things a lot in the frenzy of headlines Rossi's arrival at Ducati has generated. The most significant change announced so far for example (the new big bang engine with a revised flatter torque curve) has nothing to do with Rossi, it is part of the 2011 spec bike that was tested at Valencia -- that bike, which has been further worked on after the test, is the natural 2011 evolution of the Desmo16 and is exactly the same bike Stoner would have tested, had he stayed on.



Regarding the changes made in order to make the bike easier for riders that are not Stoner, that is a story that has begun 3 years before Rossi's arrival. One can't say they are trying to make the Duck easier "for Rossi". Rather, Rossi (and JB) are supposed to help Ducati in reaching this objective towards which they've been struggling since 2008.

Click to expand...

Agreed. I believe, on the one hand, Ducati have their panties in bunch and it shows. But despite their hectic appearance, they don't seem to be doing anything that probably wasn't planned before Rossi first threw his leg over the bike.



I'm sure Ducati would love to focus all their energy on moving heaven and earth to create something Rossi can be competitive on. Yet I don't believe they can do much yet, because I seriously doubt that he could provide them with much significant imput yet, considering how the Valencia test went.



I know Preziosi praised Rossi's feedback, but I don't really buy it. How can Rossi and JB have enough understanding of the bike yet to really help with anything except basic setup, considering how idiosyncratic the duc is?

stiefel said:

Agreed. I believe, on the one hand, Ducati have their panties in bunch and it shows. But despite their hectic appearance, they don't seem to be doing anything that probably wasn't planned before Rossi first threw his leg over the bike.



I'm sure Ducati would love to focus all their energy on moving heaven and earth to create something Rossi can be competitive on. Yet I don't believe they can do much yet, because I seriously doubt that he could provide them with much significant imput yet, considering how the Valencia test went.



I know Preziosi praised Rossi's feedback, but I don't really buy it. How can Rossi and JB have enough understanding of the bike yet to really help with anything except basic setup, considering how idiosyncratic the duc is?

Click to expand...

That's exactly the point. Before Ducati can move heaven and earth, Rossi has to move the Ducati fast enough. I think he can, if he can go back to those body memories of his two years with the old 500s and re-discover the feeling of a more physical ride with point and shoot cornering. He knew how to do that... unless all the years spent on the sweet Yamaha have permanently changed his style, and/or unless age is taking its toll. I'm curious...

I don't know... BUT I have friends who can pick up an instrument, any instrument - string, brass, percussion, keyboard, woodwind, hell I saw my one buddy pick up this bizarre 3 stringed six foot long Japanese instrument we had never seen nor heard of and play it (almost as well as the Japanese guy who was demonstrating it to us). Some people are "naturals" and maybe the to a "natural" the huge differences that we see in bikes recede to become "just another instrument"...

Mick D said:

I don't know... BUT I have friends who can pick up an instrument, any instrument - string, brass, percussion, keyboard, woodwind, hell I saw my one buddy pick up this bizarre 3 stringed six foot long Japanese instrument we had never seen nor heard of and play it (almost as well as the Japanese guy who was demonstrating it to us). Some people are "naturals" and maybe the to a "natural" the huge differences that we see in bikes recede to become "just another instrument"...

Click to expand...

I have a friend who is just like that. Can play anything you put in his hands. I tried to teach him how to play the guitar, and he was better than me in about two weeks. \



.....but I still have to intonate his guitar for him.

J4rn0 said:

Yes, the media are confusing things a lot in the frenzy of headlines Rossi's arrival at Ducati has generated.

Click to expand...

Ah, so its just a media creation? Like a mirage? So the two test and statements that they must improve, and the long list of .... that they have already turned to, which Motomatters described was business as usual? I seem to have missed the last two years when they said "Ducati must improve for Stoner to be Stoner."

stiefel said:

Agreed. I believe, on the one hand, Ducati have their panties in bunch and it shows. But despite their hectic appearance, they don't seem to be doing anything that probably wasn't planned before Rossi first threw his leg over the bike.



I'm sure Ducati would love to focus all their energy on moving heaven and earth to create something Rossi can be competitive on. Yet I don't believe they can do much yet, because I seriously doubt that he could provide them with much significant imput yet, considering how the Valencia test went.



I know Preziosi praised Rossi's feedback, but I don't really buy it. How can Rossi and JB have enough understanding of the bike yet to really help with anything except basic setup, considering how idiosyncratic the duc is?

Click to expand...

That hectic appearance is NOT a mirage as J4rno would like you to think. Its real, and its because Rossi sucked on his first test (which was real too).



JB arrogantly said from a distance (after he took a dig at Stoner) that he could fix the Ducati in less than a minute. So it appears he does know a thing or two, like Babel, he assessed it with his extraordinary vision. Now imagine just how much more he learned from two days of testing with Rossi? Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but Burgess is not banned from working with Ducati since that Valencia test. I'm pretty sure he's set up camp at Bolognia.



If anybody thinks that Ducati's preseason work is business as usual, after securing sponsorship from everybody but Jesus Christ himself, and after pulling their engineers from every possible involvement around the globe to work on this project, then you are delusional.

Jumkie said:

JB arrogantly said from a distance (after he took a dig at Stoner) that he could fix the Ducati in less than a minute.

Click to expand...

He didn't say that. He was discussing the satellite riders' problems, the 'lesser' riders who he thought had a set up that was way too soft. I assure you that he did not say such a thing; I would suggest you go and review that interview again.

RCV600RR said:

He didn't say that. He was discussing the satellite riders' problems, the 'lesser' riders who he thought had a set up that was way too soft. I assure you that he did not say such a thing; I would suggest you go and review that interview again.

Click to expand...

EDIT: Edited to soften tone. (Ptk50 pointed out I sound "Machiavelli") So, I added a few smilies-- Also, I misspelled 'lessor', but you correctly spelled "lesser".



Well buddy, pretty bold to say he did not say what I propose. Is what you quoted of me above incorrect? Yes or No?



I said: "JB arrogantly said from a distance (after he took a dig at Stoner) that he could fix the Ducati in less than a minute."



You're not disputing my characterization of JB, check.

You're not disputing that he had previously taken a dig at Stoner, check

You're not disputing the time frame of less than a minute, check.

You're not disputing that he made his assessment from a distance, check.

You're not disputing that he said he fix a Ducati, check.



What's left to dispute about my statement friend? But you start with, "he didn't say that."?



He certainly DID say what I proposed. Read it again, as I made no distinction between what riders he was referring to, did I? We had a thread already dedicated to his comments, you can go back and search, as I'm quite aware what he said in terms of his exact quote. You can assure me all you want, but its will simply come down to an assurance of what is YOUR opinion regarding YOUR interpretation of what he said. So you are now interpreting "lessor" "lesser" riders to mean "satellite"? I wouldn't be surprised if he included Stoner in his "lessor" "lesser" rider category as he questioned the man's integrity when he disprespectfully daid 'it looked to him like Stoner was already riding for Honda' mid season. What qualifier did JB use to make you assume that he was referring to 'satellite' riders? He certainly did NOT use the word "satellite" in his statement. But I can tell you with all degree of certainty, that he was infact referring a Ducati (satellite or not).



Well pal, since you had your suggestion to me, I'll reciprocate with a suggestion of my owen: one, you review what I said, and two, review what JB said. The fact remains, Burgess arrogantly assessest the Ducati's problem without first hand knowledge. I say arrogantly because that flies in the face of the crewchief's working with what he termed "lessor" "lesser" riders, God only knows what the .... that means, but you certainly don't and neither do I until we get some clarification from the man. Have you? For all we know, "lessor" "lesser" could have been referring to Stoner, or have you not noticed his bike use to buck & squirm? For all we know (keep in mind, JB has made no attempt to back off from his condescending comments bout Stoner) by using the word "lessor" he may have referred to the Casey's integrity. "Lessor" "lesser" is you smoking gun above, yet in his original statement, you'd be hard pressed to get any concrete consensus as to what he meant, but its your iron clad "assurance" that you do? Balls in your court brotha.

Jumkie said:

Ah, so its just a media creation? Like a mirage? So the two test and statements that they must improve, and the long list of .... that they have already turned to, which Motomatters described was business as usual? I seem to have missed the last two years when they said "Ducati must improve for Stoner to be Stoner."

That hectic appearance is NOT a mirage as J4rno would like you to think. Its real, and its because Rossi sucked on his first test (which was real too).



JB arrogantly said from a distance (after he took a dig at Stoner) that he could fix the Ducati in less than a minute. So it appears he does know a thing or two, like Babel, he assessed it with his extraordinary vision. Now imagine just how much more he learned from two days of testing with Rossi? Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but Burgess is not banned from working with Ducati since that Valencia test. I'm pretty sure he's set up camp at Bolognia.



If anybody thinks that Ducati's preseason work is business as usual, after securing sponsorship from everybody but Jesus Christ himself, and after pulling their engineers from every possible involvement around the globe to work on this project, then you are delusional.

Click to expand...

As usual, your arguments show that you live in a reality warp Jum.

There were very radical changes to the Ducati in the last two years -- big bang engine, CF chassis -- how can anybody say that Ducati did nothing in the last two years (with mixed results, but that's not because of a lack of effort). And there wasn't Rossi then, not even on the radar.

Burgess has been at Borgo Panigale one week with his mechanics, for bike building. He's not set up camp there -- no need for that.



Ducati have hired Rossi and started a new phase, which is a big change, but have not done anything radical to the bike so far. It's too early, be patient! I told you already

Your attempt to present Ducati as NASA designing a rocket for a mission to Mars with Rossi, is just preposterous.



If there is a manufacturer that is deploying really huge means and resources, that dwarf Ducati in comparison, that's Honda. Four factory Hondas on the grid this year, two aliens, no engineering efforts spared from the biggest manufacturer in the world. That's where you should look for any threats to a level playing field (as you love to call it, which has no meaning in MotoGP anyway). Oh, but Rossi is not there... so that's not relevant.

J4rn0 I interpret your comments as comparing the difference between a change from a trellis frame to a CF frame, which is obviously a huge change, and the changes currently being made to the flexibility of the front end.



Where as Jumkie I think is suggesting that the changes to CF chassis and big bang engine were engineering changes directed from Ducati and handed to the riders as a "here is your bike like it or lump it" which is in stark contrast to now where the attitude is "here is our bike tell us what you want us to do with it and we will change it no questions asked with no limitations". I think this is where Jumkie is getting his NASA and Heaven and Earth being moved to accommodate Rossi comments from. I highly doubt that Stoner or Hayden were asked "what would you like us to do?" and responded with "how about you ditch the trellis frame and go CF with the engine as a fully integrated component of the chassis."



When Stoner had problems with the front end there was no "well lets totally redesign the flexibility of the front end and get Ohlins to build a brand new fork". The response appears to be "here try last years fork and lets change your position on the bike. Both options required zero engineering effort, manufacturing or test teams trying multitudes of options. Remember that Stoner was also trying to fight for a potential 2nd in the championship which would have been nothing to cry about considering the season Lorenzo had. The best crystal ball gazing would suggest that 3rd would be a mighty effort for Rossi in 2011. It may be argued that 3rd is a goal to fight for if you fear 5th or 6th is likely if something drastic is not done.

Mental Anarchist said:

J4rn0 I interpret your comments as comparing the difference between a change from a trellis frame to a CF frame, which is obviously a huge change, and the changes currently being made to the flexibility of the front end.



Where as Jumkie I think is suggesting that the changes to CF chassis and big bang engine were engineering changes directed from Ducati and handed to the riders as a "here is your bike like it or lump it" which is in stark contrast to now where the attitude is "here is our bike tell us what you want us to do with it and we will change it no questions asked with no limitations". I think this is where Jumkie is getting his NASA and Heaven and Earth being moved to accommodate Rossi comments from. I highly doubt that Stoner or Hayden were asked "what would you like us to do?" and responded with "how about you ditch the trellis frame and go CF with the engine as a fully integrated component of the chassis."



When Stoner had problems with the front end there was no "well lets totally redesign the flexibility of the front end and get Ohlins to build a brand new fork". The response appears to be "here try last years fork and lets change your position on the bike. Both options required zero engineering effort, manufacturing or test teams trying multitudes of options. Remember that Stoner was also trying to fight for a potential 2nd in the championship which would have been nothing to cry about considering the season Lorenzo had. The best crystal ball gazing would suggest that 3rd would be a mighty effort for Rossi in 2011. It may be argued that 3rd is a goal to fight for if you fear 5th or 6th is likely if something drastic is not done.

Click to expand...

Mental, the difference is that now they have someone like Rossi and JB who are telling them "gentlemen, this is the way out of the problems, trust us" and they would be foolish not to trust them given their record. That is different from simply saying "the front end has problems, please fix it".



It is like you are sick and have a doctor who gives you a correct diagnosis, but then does not really have good therapies to propose, or what you try together fails. There comes another doctor, the diagnosis is the same, but he is more experienced and has a fabulous record of healing patients. He tells you what to do, it's something you had not thought of -- would you do it or not? It's not a matter of not wanting to do something with the previous doctor... Then the previous doctor will say, oh, my diagnosis was correct, I did tell them -- but there is a difference.



Mind it: what they are doing is still only adjustments, but already Vitto Guareschi said the customized setup tested at Jerez following Rossi's indications is something they had never tried before and it did change the bike behavior. Experience is something real...

i get what you're saying but then again this indicates that rossis feedback will be more listened to at ducati,therefor supporting the point that a few of us tried to make



i find it impossible to believe that stoner melandri and hayden weren't ABLE to give the required feedback over the years when rossi jumps on the duc once and rides around dramatically off the pace and magically he is able to judge the bike more than those guys together over the years

cliché guevara said:

i get what you're saying but then again this indicates that rossis feedback will be more listened to at ducati,therefor supporting the point that a few of us tried to make



i find it impossible to believe that stoner melandri and hayden weren't ABLE to give the required feedback over the years when rossi jumps on the duc once and rides around dramatically off the pace and magically he is able to judge the bike more than those guys together over the years

Click to expand...

I don't think many reasonable people would disagree with you there, J4rno is suggesting that the Ducati engineering department is so inferior that JB can do something with 2 days of Rossi's less than top ten testing that they couldn't do with 4 world champions over 4 years.

Tom said:

I don't think many reasonable people would disagree with you there, J4rno is suggesting that the Ducati engineering department is so inferior that JB can do something with 2 days of Rossi's less than top ten testing that they couldn't do with 4 world champions over 4 years.

Click to expand...

yep thats what i was trying to say,language can be quite a barrier when it comes to arguing







@ j4rno : the thing i can't get my head around is that you're constantly implying that the people working at ducati are a bunch of dorks

when even italians treasure a single rider more than the whole of ducati somethings seriously wrong don't you think

Jumkie said:

Well buddy, pretty bold to say he did not say what I propose. Is what you quoted of me above incorrect? Yes or No?



I said: "JB arrogantly said from a distance (after he took a dig at Stoner) that he could fix the Ducati in less than a minute."



You're not disputing my characterization of JB, check.

You're not disputing that he had previously taken a dig at Stoner, check

You're not disputing the time frame of less than a minute, check.

You're not disputing that he made his assessment from a distance, check.

You're not disputing that he said he fix a Ducati, check.



What's left to dispute about my statement firend? But you start with, "he didn't day that."?



He certainly DID say what I proposed. Read it again, as I made no distinction between what riders he was referring to, did I? We had a thread already dedicated to his comments, you can go back and search, as I'm quite aware what he said in terms of his exact quote. You can assure me all you want, but its will simply come down to an assurance of what is YOUR opinion regarding YOUR interpretation of what he said. So you are now interpreting "lessor" riders to mean "satellite"? I wouldn't be surprised if he included Stoner in his "lessor" rider category as he questioned the man's integrity when he disprespectfully daid 'it looked to him like Stoner was already riding for Honda' mid season. What qualifier did JB use to make you assume that he was referring to 'satellite' riders? He certainly did NOT use the word "satellite" in his statement. But I can tell you with all degree of certainty, that he was infact referring a Ducati (satellite or not).



Well pal, since you had your suggestion to me, I'll reciprocate with a suggestion of my owen: one, you review what I said, and two, review what JB said. The fact remains, Burgess arrogantly assessest the Ducati's problem without first hand knowledge. I say arrogantly because that flies in the face of the crewchief's working with what he termed "lessor" riders, God only knows what the .... that means, but you certainly don't and neither do I until we get some clarification from the man. Have you? For all we know, "lessor" could have been referring to Stoner, or have you not noticed his bike use to buck & squirm? For all we know (keep in mind, JB has made no attempt to back off from his condescending comments bout Stoner) by using the word "lessor" he may have referred to the Casey's integrity. "Lessor" is you smoking gun above, yet in his original statement, you'd be hard pressed to get any concrete consensus as to what he meant, but its your iron clad "assurance" that you do? Balls in your court brotha.

Click to expand...

Hey Jumkie,



You're doing a good job of coming across like a wannabe Machiavelli. Just because he didn't specifically repudiate some of your arrogant claims re JB, doesn't in any way mean he agrees with them - so put your "checks" where they belong. Oh and btw "lessor" is someone who leases something to somebody - so the connection - "lessor" to satellite teams is not quite as misunderstandable to the rest of us as it seems to be for you.

cliché guevara said:

yep thats what i was trying to say,language can be quite a barrier when it comes to arguing

@ j4rno : the thing i can't get my head around is that you're constantly implying that the people working at ducati are a bunch of dorks

when even italians treasure a single rider more than the whole of ducati somethings seriously wrong don't you think

Click to expand...

Ducati engineers "dorks"? That's your words not mine.





You are either kidding, or really do not understand what it means developing a racing motorcycle . According to the same logic Yamaha engineers were a bunch of "dorks" because they were not able to sort the M1 before Rossi and JB put them on the right path.

Or, Honda engineers are "dorks" because they have not yet produced a bike capable to win the 800cc class they wanted so badly.



Truth is, there are no dorks working at either Yamaha, Ducati, or Honda. Quite the opposite. But as Preziosi pointed out, there are no "sensors" for collecting data about the chassis as a whole -- the only "sensor" for that is an experienced top rider. And a chief engineer of the caliber of Burgess would be listened to very attentively by any top designer when he proposes something to fix a certain problem.





It's only people with a strong anti-Rossi bias who insist in seeing in this a "preferential treatment". It means one does not want to give the credit where credit is due.

J4rn0 said:

Ducati engineers "dorks"? That's your words not mine.

You are either kidding, or really do not understand what it means developing a racing motorcycle . According to the same logic Yamaha engineers were a bunch of "dorks" because they were not able to sort the M1 before Rossi and JB put them on the right path.

Or, Honda engineers are "dorks" because they have not yet produced a bike capable to win the 800cc class they wanted so badly.



Truth is, there are no dorks working at either Yamaha, Ducati, or Honda. Quite the opposite. But as Preziosi pointed out, there are no "sensors" for collecting data about the chassis as a whole -- the only "sensor" for that is an experienced top rider. And a chief engineer of the caliber of Burgess would be listened to very attentively by any top designer when he proposes something to fix a certain problem.





It's only people with a strong anti-Rossi bias who insist in seeing in this a "preferential treatment". It means one does not want to give the credit where credit is due.

Click to expand...

Ok it is widely reported that Ducati's riders have all had largely the same problem since the start of the 800cc era, and you think that in 2 days of riding slower than karel abraham Rossi was able to give better feedback than they could Obtain from 4 years of Casey Stoner, 2 years of Nicky Hayden, a Year of Marcon Melandri and a year of Loris Capirossi, all world champions. Plus the input from their satellite riders, of varying capabilities. You are either suggesting that in those 2 slow days Rossi was able to give more feedback than all of that combined, or that Ducati engineers were unable to deal with this feedback for 4 years until JB arrived and re-designed the bike.



Besides expecting people to believe that either of those two ridiculous scenarios are true, you also expect us to overlook the cancellation of their superbike programs all over the world (depsite more than 20 years of participation and success) and their public statements regarding the need for them to do more than they have been.



It is much more feasible that Ducati are simply doing more than ever to succeed in motogp because a) They know if Rossi loses their image will suffer, not his. They know they can't rely on just one rider anymore. c) Rossi's arrival will inspire and motivate the team to improve

Tom said:

Ok it is widely reported that Ducati's riders have all had largely the same problem since the start of the 800cc era, and you think that in 2 days of riding slower than karel abraham Rossi was able to give better feedback than they could Obtain from 4 years of Casey Stoner, 2 years of Nicky Hayden, a Year of Marcon Melandri and a year of Loris Capirossi, all world champions. Plus the input from their satellite riders, of varying capabilities. You are either suggesting that in those 2 slow days Rossi was able to give more feedback than all of that combined, or that Ducati engineers were unable to deal with this feedback for 4 years until JB arrived and re-designed the bike.



Besides expecting people to believe that either of those two ridiculous scenarios are true, you also expect us to overlook the cancellation of their superbike programs all over the world (depsite more than 20 years of participation and success) and their public statements regarding the need for them to do more than they have been.



It is much more feasible that Ducati are simply doing more than ever to succeed in motogp because a) They know if Rossi loses their image will suffer, not his.

They know they can't rely on just one rider anymore. c) Rossi's arrival will inspire and motivate the team to improve

Click to expand...

Oh, certainly there is no chance I can make you "believe" anything if you do not even listen.





It is obvious that Rossi and Burgess had ideas about how to solve certain typical problems, solutions that can be tried out without need to carry out tests at the limit. Ideas out of their experience.



These ideas are not very costly to implement -- shorter forks, different weight distribution, different stiffness for the front end. Ducati was able to do that in one month. Of course all the previous feedback (and data) of the previous and existing riders was available to Ducati, so they had not only the data of Rossi' limited tests to compare against the proposed adjustments to the bike. They considered the suggestions interesting and implemented them. At Sepang we'll se if they've been effective. No need of make-believe.



The story of Ducati going out of their way "for Rossi" is silly. Ducati go out of their way for Ducati. The Superbike human resources have not been poured into MotoGP (even assuming they could help there) most of the mechanics and engineerws will still work in Superbike with the "satellite" bikes.



Behind the decision to withdraw from Superbike there are the current regulations, that Ducati considers do not give their twins enough chance against the IL4's, and the bad results of the last seasons, much more than the hiring of Rossi whose budget is fully covered by sponsors.

J4rn0 said:

No need of make-believe.

Click to expand...

That is what im trying to tell you, stop trying to prentend that Rossi is being treated no different to any other Ducati rider and that the only difference between this season and any other is that Rossi holds the answers to all the questions of universe

Tom said:

That is what im trying to tell you, stop trying to prentend that Rossi is being treated no different to any other Ducati rider and that the only difference between this season and any other is that Rossi holds the answers to all the questions of universe

Click to expand...

I say he is listened to more because he has that kind of credit, not because of "preferential treatment" as some like to make us believe. They listened to him and JB in the same way at Yamaha. Who wants to make us believe something here...