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Rossi was Ducatis 2nd choice??

Mental Anarchist said:
Now how does this impact new bike under new rules?
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a good point all around. 2nd time you've got a wrap from me
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however I think that jbs and vr's more conservative approach has certainly paid dividends more often than not. That being said 2007 saw very radical rule changes which made all rethink the entire race weekend let alone engineering, including the most crucial IMO the tyre and fuel limits.



For 2012 the changes only to capacity mostly, are nowhere near as upending as 07 so I don't believe we will see a particular manufacturer get a jump on the field to the extent of that year. And hopefully the 2012 changes will also prove to have an equally radical opposite effect on the quality of the racing than what we experienced 5 years earlier and ever since.....
 
Talpa said:
a good point all around. 2nd time you've got a wrap from me
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however I think that jbs and vr's more conservative approach has certainly paid dividends more often than not. That being said 2007 saw very radical rule changes which made all rethink the entire race weekend let alone engineering, including the most crucial IMO the tyre and fuel limits.



For 2012 the changes only to capacity mostly, are nowhere near as upending as 07 so I don't believe we will see a particular manufacturer get a jump on the field to the extent of that year. And hopefully the 2012 changes will also prove to have an equally radical opposite effect on the quality of the racing than what we experienced 5 years earlier and ever since.....
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Certainly in the doohan/jb days it was reputed that one of doohan's main concerns was preventing the honda factory from "improving" the honda 500 in unrequested and unhelpful directions; whether this was jb's influence on him or he influenced jb I don't know.



We only have a sample size of two in regard to rossi/jb and new formulae, and whilst as has been argued they may have had trouble with the 1st year of the 800 formula they did not appear to have much trouble with the first year of the 990 formula, but did have trouble with the last year of that formula. Alternative hypotheses are that whilst terrific at development they are not entirely infallible, or that they like others are still to some extent dependent on the manufacturer not getting it wrong.
 
Wow Talpa.... (takes a moment to soak it in) .....



I agree that the conservative approach is a good one especially when you have a rider who is as solid as they come.



You may be right that the changes are minimal and therefore it is simply evolution rather that a complete new beginning however I think after 5 years of evolution the factories could all be looking to make big steps and the chance still exists for one of them to nail it and others to bring a knife to a gun fight.



Unfortunately I do not share your optimism for close racing in 2012. I think we will be lamenting the demise of the 800's as 2011 I think is going to be a cracker.



Michael,



It would be pretty easy to suggest that JB and Rossi had nothing to do with the first Honda 990. Firstly neither of them had ever had anything to do with 4 strokes and secondly Rossi particularly didn't have the resume that he has today, it was good but it was nothing in comparison to what it is today.



So in my opinion we only have 1 example of JB & Rossi assisting in bringing a new bike to a new formula.
 
Mental Anarchist said:
Unfortunately I do not share your optimism for close racing in 2012. I think we will be lamenting the demise of the 800's as 2011 I think is going to be a cracker.



Michael,



It would be pretty easy to suggest that JB and Rossi had nothing to do with the first Honda 990. Firstly neither of them had ever had anything to do with 4 strokes and secondly Rossi particularly didn't have the resume that he has today, it was good but it was nothing in comparison to what it is today.



So in my opinion we only have 1 example of JB & Rossi assisting in bringing a new bike to a new formula.
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Agree with the first point, close racing is more likely to occur with a mature formula, and frequent changing of rules is one of the major problems with the sport.



I actually agree that honda gave rossi and jb a good bike in the first year of the 990s, but this was more or less my point ; whilst perhaps less dependent than others they still need good or at least potentially good gear from the factory, and with the 2006 yamaha which was in a year when the 990 formula was at its most mature it is possible yamaha may have been at fault for the early season woes of that bike .
 
Mental Anarchist said:
It would be pretty easy to suggest that JB and Rossi had nothing to do with the first Honda 990. Firstly neither of them had ever had anything to do with 4 strokes and secondly Rossi particularly didn't have the resume that he has today, it was good but it was nothing in comparison to what it is today.



So in my opinion we only have 1 example of JB & Rossi assisting in bringing a new bike to a new formula.
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I disagree, i seem to remember Rossi being quite concerned about the threat of the 2 strokes in 2002 (Katoh) and i recall reading that he was quite firm with Honda about getting the bike as he liked it, including requesting a redesign on the layout when the bike was initially way too small for him.



michaelm said:
with the 2006 yamaha which was in a year when the 990 formula was at its most mature it is possible yamaha may have been at fault for the early season woes of that bike .
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Agree to an extent, as their major chatter issue isn't something you could really pin onto rider feedback as it is more an unintended consequence of what was almost certainly a reasonable request. But perhaps they problem could have been discovered and dealt with earlier if Rossi didn't elect to miss tests to drive F1 cars and whatever. He and Jb might have tried different setups and tyres to Colin, or maybe just have gone faster, if preperations are't thorough enough then the results can suffer. Be it in the design office, the factory, the pit garage or the rider himself.
 
Jumkie said:
Won't you have to revoke your Bopper card? I don't think the Yellow Army will take kindly to you enjoying a Stoner win at the expense of Rossi.



Despite me liking Stoner and seeing his amazing ability to be fast, I'm still holding my breath. We talk about his speed on Honda as if its a new revelation sometimes, but frankly, he's been the 'fastest' guy for several years now. And he's managed only one title because of this issue with crashing. Now, I certainly put most of the blame at the foot of the PAST Ducati (as opposed to the NEW& IMPROVED more HIGHLY MOTIVATED Ducati), but even then, I worried Stoner will have some kind of crashing issues. The championship has been as much about who's fast as its been about who stays upright.
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You are the self-appointed judge who's giving out "bopper cards", I couldn't care less for such nonsense so feel free to do what you want with it.
laugh.gif
. Stoner has always been in my favorite rider list, he's not a recent addition.
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I hear you singing the song of Ducati's "unprecedented efforts" for Rossi, your point is very clear: should Rossi ever be successful on the Duck, it will only be because of such "extraordinary efforts". It's so much ........ Jum. Ducati are by far the smallest players in this game and even if they'll certainly do whatever they can to be competitive, what they can is little in comparison to Honda or Yamaha. The number of engineers working at Ducati Corse has not increased -- they are 70 now, they were 70 last year. And, so far, they have just adjusted the bike without changing anything in its design. This is the reality, and the one who refuses to see it is you.
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Jumkie said:
EDIT: Edited to soften tone. (Ptk50 pointed out I sound "Machiavelli") So, I added a few smilies--
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Also, I misspelled 'lessor', but you correctly spelled "lesser".



Well buddy, pretty bold to say he did not say what I propose. Is what you quoted of me above incorrect? Yes or No?



I said: "JB arrogantly said from a distance (after he took a dig at Stoner) that he could fix the Ducati in less than a minute."



You're not disputing my characterization of JB, check.

You're not disputing that he had previously taken a dig at Stoner, check

You're not disputing the time frame of less than a minute, check.

You're not disputing that he made his assessment from a distance, check.

You're not disputing that he said he fix a Ducati, check.



What's left to dispute about my statement friend? But you start with, "he didn't say that."?



He certainly DID say what I proposed. Read it again, as I made no distinction between what riders he was referring to, did I? We had a thread already dedicated to his comments, you can go back and search, as I'm quite aware what he said in terms of his exact quote. You can assure me all you want, but its will simply come down to an assurance of what is YOUR opinion regarding YOUR interpretation of what he said. So you are now interpreting "lessor" "lesser" riders to mean "satellite"? I wouldn't be surprised if he included Stoner in his "lessor" "lesser" rider category as he questioned the man's integrity when he disprespectfully daid 'it looked to him like Stoner was already riding for Honda' mid season. What qualifier did JB use to make you assume that he was referring to 'satellite' riders? He certainly did NOT use the word "satellite" in his statement. But I can tell you with all degree of certainty, that he was infact referring a Ducati (satellite or not).



Well pal, since you had your suggestion to me, I'll reciprocate with a suggestion of my owen: one, you review what I said, and two, review what JB said. The fact remains, Burgess arrogantly assessest the Ducati's problem without first hand knowledge. I say arrogantly because that flies in the face of the crewchief's working with what he termed "lessor" "lesser" riders, God only knows what the .... that means, but you certainly don't and neither do I until we get some clarification from the man. Have you? For all we know, "lessor" "lesser" could have been referring to Stoner, or have you not noticed his bike use to buck & squirm? For all we know (keep in mind, JB has made no attempt to back off from his condescending comments bout Stoner) by using the word "lessor" he may have referred to the Casey's integrity. "Lessor" "lesser" is you smoking gun above, yet in his original statement, you'd be hard pressed to get any concrete consensus as to what he meant, but its your iron clad "assurance" that you do? Balls in your court brotha.
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Hey Jumkie, I think the long post was unnecessary. It would be more pertinent to cite the quotation and analyse it in context, rather than considering what the word lesser means in isolation.



Question :"Which would Valentino be closer to?



“Difficult to say, without knowing where the weight is on the bike and how it behaves. But, without question, I don’t anticipate any major dramas. I can watch some of these lesser riders on the Ducatis and you can see that the bikes are, in my opinion, unsuitably set for what they want to try and do with them. I’m not saying anybody’s doing a bad job. I see these things wobbling around. When I think, clearly, if we had that issue with Valentino it’d be fixed in 80 seconds, but some riders don’t like the hardness of the bike, because they don’t get the feel. But then when they’re riding around and it’s too soft they’re not going forward either. So you’ve got to be able to create the feel with the hardness to avoid all that sloppiness. I don’t think there are any issues in the bike that are a big worry to me. I think the bike is just a tool to do your job. You sharpen the tool at the race track, you don’t build it. you should be able to adjust it to what Valentino wants. And until we’ve got a race or two under belts, we won’t really know how close we are or how much better we’ve made it. but if we can make it, as it stands here today, good for Valentino, then it’s probably not a bad bike. Then we just have to wait and see what happens.”



The interview is here:

http://www.sportrider.com/news/146_...s_move_to_ducati_motogp_with_rossi/index.html



Casey Stoner, no matter how you interpret it, is not a 'lesser' rider. I think that is a very stretched interpretation! He is clearly referring to the Satellite Ducatis, like Hector Barbera, Aleix Espargaro and Mika Kallio.



Why do I say this?



"I can watch some of these lesser riders on the Ducatis and you can see that the bikes are, in my opinion, unsuitably set for what they want to try and do with them."



Let's analyse this statement. He is watching 'some of these lesser riders on the Ducatis'. You will note that he did not indicate that he is not commenting on all the Ducatis. If so, he would make a statement like 'I can watch the riders on the Ducatis and you can see that the bikes are, IMO, unsuitably set for what they want to try and do with them'. But, he did not make such a comment. He referred to the lesser riders on the Ducatis only.



Let's consider who rides the Ducati Desmosedici GP10. AE, HB, MK, CS and NH. In that group, clearly Casey is not one of the lesser riders. Arguably, Nicky isn't either. This leaves the Satellite riders.
 
BarryMachine said:
Back to original topic:



MCN has bought into it:

http://www.motorcycl...to-keep-stoner/



Are Ducati already loosing faith in Rossi given his poor performance? Seems like trickles of Melandri allover again to me.
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I buy MCN every week, and this is one of their classic non-stories.

So Ducati wanted to keep Stoner and offered him a lucrative deal for 2011, way back in 2009.

Ok. So what? Stoner was riding the arse of the Duc and its only natural the factory would want to keep him.

Then Stoner decided to quit. Yes we know all this. And because he quit, that paved the way for Rossi to join Ducati.

Yes, we know all this too. Where's the story?

They are suggesting, if Stoner had stayed, Rossi wouldn't have had the opportunity to go to Ducati. ....... hell, this is not cutting edge journalism is it?

Well unless Ducati were willing to piss Stoner off in this scenario, and let Rossi take the number 1 status in the team, then of course he wouldn't have had the opportunity.

I'm honestly still trying to find the story in all of this.

And how even you Barry managed to turn this into a slight on Rossi's performance is beyond me.

Keep up the good work mate.
 
SprogTheDog said:
I buy MCN every week, and this is one of their classic non-stories.

So Ducati wanted to keep Stoner and offered him a lucrative deal for 2011, way back in 2009.

Ok. So what? Stoner was riding the arse of the Duc and its only natural the factory would want to keep him.

Then Stoner decided to quit. Yes we know all this. And because he quit, that paved the way for Rossi to join Ducati.

Yes, we know all this too. Where's the story?

They are suggesting, if Stoner had stayed, Rossi wouldn't have had the opportunity to go to Ducati. ....... hell, this is not cutting edge journalism is it?

Well unless Ducati were willing to piss Stoner off in this scenario, and let Rossi take the number 1 status in the team, then of course he wouldn't have had the opportunity.

I'm honestly still trying to find the story in all of this.

And how even you Barry managed to turn this into a slight on Rossi's performance is beyond me.

Keep up the good work mate.
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well its the off season and there isn't much you can write about motogp these days , if there isn't anything to write about you just recap stuff to fill the void
 
SprogTheDog said:
I buy MCN every week, and this is one of their classic non-stories.

...............................
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I see more to it than that:



1. Reasons why Rossi went to Ducati and how much Ducati wanted and needed him get a bit "fairytale" from you boppers ...... its nice to have it put back into perspective. I found the revisit of the story more of a prompt to get the facts straight again, as things were going a tad off track
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2. The more sinister of the thoughts behind this ......... A poor performance by Rossi on the Ducati could ruin Ducati, after the initial euphoria things have not gone well for Rossi they haven't improved much at all. Its beginning to sound like some doubt is setting in from the top echelons of Ducati, but I am aware that his turned into a slur on Melandri when he did not gel on the Duc. Luckily for Duc. at the time they had Stoner so could blame Melandri. ........ but not now.
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Just have to comment on this bit:



SprogTheDog said:
And how even you Barry managed to turn this into a slight on Rossi's performance is beyond me.
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are you seriously suggesting Rossi's performance on the Duc. so far has been anything but "so so"?
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If he had got up to 3rd ...... maybe ....... and even Duc. would be rubbing their hands and extolling his virtues ......



but he hasn't broken 10th yet has he ?
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and we are now seeing the reactions trickle in from Duc. ........ they are already backpedaling in dreaming Stoner was still there
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( not real nice to Rossi when you think of it ..... but they have a history of doing this in the past
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get real
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One thing I would proffer from all of this is, I believe Rossi has been somewhat of a Matyr in going Duc. ...... the guy actually likes MGP and is doing his bit to keep it going in its present "Dorna-ised" form. For that reason I think it would be shameful for his fans, and indeed Ducati, to begin to dump on him should he not perform to the level that he has in the past with the "big money" teams. But the "fair weather" and need to "score from someone else s deeds" nature of the boppers does not bode well for his future.
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BarryMachine said:
One thing I would proffer from all of this is, I believe Rossi has been somewhat of a Matyr in going Duc. ...... the guy actually likes MGP and is doing his bit to keep it going in its present "Dorna-ised" form. For that reason I think it would be shameful for his fans, and indeed Ducati, to begin to dump on him should he not perform to the level that he has in the past with the "big money" teams. But the "fair weather" and need to "score from someone else s deeds" nature of the boppers does not bode well for his future.
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Rossi's reputation both in general and in particular with his fans is more than secure.



I would agree that ducati have a lot to lose if things go badly. I don't think this will happen though; the last day of testing both in terms of rossi's physical status and him adapting to/ adapting to the bike indicated to me he will be at least competitive. I am happy for him to be so as long as casey wins the championship
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SprogTheDog said:
You see more to it because you are deluded my friend.
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Deluded would be if I said Rossi was going the best he has ever gone ............ is that what you wanted me to say? because that would have been delusional
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.......... matter of fact would it even be correct if I said he was going as good as his previous worst ever years start
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?



I suspect anything other than that would be seen as a "slight" by you
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Your delusional view on the reality of the situation could be why such folk as MCN find a need to reiterate or as in this case update previous observations ........
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