Rossi v Stoner: On the Ducati

Kropotkin said:

This.

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Talpa said:

Your signature has just cemented what we all knew to be more than apparent when considering your view, not even Baz has fanboyed it up this much yet! Nor any Boppers for that matter, making discussion pointless......... I suggest you and Gumball would be far happier posting on Caseystoner.com.

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Talpa said:

Typical Boner logic, only highlight the races that help your moronic cause.........using Germany and Laguna-conveniently leaving out the others which tell a much different story

GPone's article was comparing the years, no doubt due to the immense amount of ........ being sprouted by Boners on the direct comparisons they like to make.



Catalunya 2011, Rossi was 1 second faster than Stoner was last year, Last season Stoner finished 3rd, Rossi finished 5th this year.



Le mans, this year Rossi was 26 laps and over 40 minutes faster than Stoner was last year.........

Qatar, this year Rossi was 17 laps and over 40 minutes faster than Stoner was last year..........

Jerez it was raining, no comparison-all were much slower. Silverstone Rain-No comparison-all were much slower. Assen rain-arctic wind-no comparison all were much slower.



Mugello the track was re-sufaced, no real comparison-but using boner logic I will, Rossi was over 35 seconds quicker than Stoner was last year.



to finish first one must first finish-So far the only thing to conclude from this, is that Rossi is consistently much quicker than Stoner was last season.........whilst re-building the bike, which is a piece of .....

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RussF1 said:

I'm not sure if you're including me in your Boner logic, moronic slur, but if you are you are sadly mistaken. I did not start this thread, but found the original journalist's article to be completely flawed in terms of a performance comparison, irrespective of whether it was comparing stoner to rossi, or lorenzo to spies, etc. I don't post much on this forum, but when i do I only try to inject some fact based debate into the threads, rather than just perpetuate the emotional 'my boy is better than your boy' stuff that fills these boards.



Clearly people like you will resist any fact based arguments, as it takes the emotion out of it. I indicated that I was only doing a quick analysis, so only went back the last 2 GPs as they were both dry and both riders finished. I seem to recall the poor weather conditions in the preceeding GPs, so didn't bother going back any further, didn't have the time. There's no hidden agenda here, I'm not trying to engineer the outcome by polluting the facts in favour of one rider or the other. Though I must admit, your statements around Rossi being faster due to finishing selected races 40 mins ahead of Stoner, adds no value to the debate, and in fact helps support my original position that solely looking a total race times gives you no indication of true performance. But I can understand why you would not want to analyse true performance this year given your allegiance to Rossi, as no amount of statistical manipulation is going to make that Ducati/Rossi combination come out smelling of roses!



I also must admit I don't understand the intent of a few of you to point to consistent points finishes in the middle of the field as something to be held up for admiration. Sure Championships are all about points and race finishes, and nothing about fast laps in QP, etc, but that's all about trying to make the difference between finishing 1st or 2nd in the championship at the end of the year. Does anyone actually think that any of these top riders, who won titles already, give a toss about the difference between finishing 3rd or 5th in the championship - of course not. Once they know they are out of title contention, they switch their focus to just grabbing any race wins they can. Ducati & Rossi currently find themselves out of contention for both (title & race wins) hence the reluctance to push and injury yourself further, which I think is completely understandable. But just watch if Ducati can find a little bit of improvement, and then Rossi starts to believe if he pushes 110% and takes some risks he may be able to content for a race win later in the season, you watch him try to do so. Then of course, he may well crash out trying, but the carrot of a race win in such a miserable season may be worth it.



Then of course some of you Rossi fans may need to revise your stance on regular midfield points finishes versus a 'win or bust' approach, which will require a conveniently short memory, but that shouldn't be a problem for you I imagine.

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RussF1 said:

I'm not sure if you're including me in your Boner logic, moronic slur, but if you are you are sadly mistaken. I did not start this thread, but found the original journalist's article to be completely flawed in terms of a performance comparison, irrespective of whether it was comparing stoner to rossi, or lorenzo to spies, etc. I don't post much on this forum, but when i do I only try to inject some fact based debate into the threads, rather than just perpetuate the emotional 'my boy is better than your boy' stuff that fills these boards.



Clearly people like you will resist any fact based arguments, as it takes the emotion out of it. I indicated that I was only doing a quick analysis, so only went back the last 2 GPs as they were both dry and both riders finished. I seem to recall the poor weather conditions in the preceeding GPs, so didn't bother going back any further, didn't have the time. There's no hidden agenda here, I'm not trying to engineer the outcome by polluting the facts in favour of one rider or the other. Though I must admit, your statements around Rossi being faster due to finishing selected races 40 mins ahead of Stoner, adds no value to the debate, and in fact helps support my original position that solely looking a total race times gives you no indication of true performance. But I can understand why you would not want to analyse true performance this year given your allegiance to Rossi, as no amount of statistical manipulation is going to make that Ducati/Rossi combination come out smelling of roses!



I also must admit I don't understand the intent of a few of you to point to consistent points finishes in the middle of the field as something to be held up for admiration. Sure Championships are all about points and race finishes, and nothing about fast laps in QP, etc, but that's all about trying to make the difference between finishing 1st or 2nd in the championship at the end of the year. Does anyone actually think that any of these top riders, who won titles already, give a toss about the difference between finishing 3rd or 5th in the championship - of course not. Once they know they are out of title contention, they switch their focus to just grabbing any race wins they can. Ducati & Rossi currently find themselves out of contention for both (title & race wins) hence the reluctance to push and injury yourself further, which I think is completely understandable. But just watch if Ducati can find a little bit of improvement, and then Rossi starts to believe if he pushes 110% and takes some risks he may be able to content for a race win later in the season, you watch him try to do so. Then of course, he may well crash out trying, but the carrot of a race win in such a miserable season may be worth it.



Then of course some of you Rossi fans may need to revise your stance on regular midfield points finishes versus a 'win or bust' approach, which will require a conveniently short memory, but that shouldn't be a problem for you I imagine.

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Talpa said:

Yes rus I can see your point completely, and Im certainly not suggesting that this season has been anything but disasterous for someone like Rossi who is always at the sharp end.



The comparison is between the two riders on the ducati. Last season Stoner was more often than not battling for 4th and 5th place finishes or crashing out early.



I agree completely that we only have a few dry race comparisons, two most recently, catalunya, le mans and Qatar. And at this stage, race finishes are in the favour of Rossi. Comparing a qualifying time to a full race result is pointless, especially when these times could not be posted consistently in the race without crashing.



No other rider is yet to get near Stoners one off laps on the ducati, yet one other rider has managed to equal and better some of his race performances at the same circuits, the problem is that the other manufactures have moved on considerably, and at some of these circuits even last year stoner and the ducati were also well off the pace, and when he was at the sharp end he suffered dnfs.



Considering that the gp11.1 was only introduced 3 rounds ago, Rossis results on a fairly revised machine with no data on the ducati, let alone the newer version, to go off, aren't necessarily as poor as many are making out.



Nickys comments on following Rossi at laguna certainly shed some light on how hard Rossi is pushing the machine, just saving the front on most corners with his foot slipping off the peg constantly, certainly tells me that the package cannot be ridden any harder without ending up in the gravel.

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Jumkie said:

The anti-SNS?



So its Bridgestone"s fault Ducati riders are underperforming? Are all the manufactures using the same tires?



With all do respect, sounds like a Ducati apologia from J4rno that your are agreeing too.

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Kropotkin said:

Nope, it's Ducati's fault they didn't change the bike to suit the Bridgestones as they changed. It is entirely clear that the introduction of a spec tire (two very similar compounds, one construction) is the defining parameter in designing a MotoGP racing motorcycle. Ducati have not grokked that yet, so they suck. This is not Bridgestone's fault, this is Ducati's fault for not adapting to the new world. They got away with it while the had a rider who could ride around their deficiencies, now they no longer can.

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Mental Anarchist said:

I have asked the question before regarding who was the control tyre being designed for. It was always my opinion that as soon as Rossi got the Bridgestones the tyres were developed for him rather than Ducati who had been working with Bridgestone for years to get the tyres right for them. I remember in 2008 Stoner going back to 2007 tyres to get the feel back.



With the Euro centric nature of MotoGP and the centre of the MotoGP Universe being Rossi (he does have a sun in his helmet graphics!) it was always my opinion that the control tyre was developed with his feedback as the primary source closely followed by the other euro riders who grace the top Japanese bikes.



If I am correct, then it would be quite karmic that Rossi is now the victim of his own gravity.

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Mental Anarchist said:

I have asked the question before regarding who was the control tyre being designed for. It was always my opinion that as soon as Rossi got the Bridgestones the tyres were developed for him rather than Ducati who had been working with Bridgestone for years to get the tyres right for them. I remember in 2008 Stoner going back to 2007 tyres to get the feel back.



With the Euro centric nature of MotoGP and the centre of the MotoGP Universe being Rossi (he does have a sun in his helmet graphics!) it was always my opinion that the control tyre was developed with his feedback as the primary source closely followed by the other euro riders who grace the top Japanese bikes.



If I am correct, then it would be quite karmic that Rossi is now the victim of his own gravity.

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