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I agree as well. Ducati actually made a pitch just before the control tyre rule was promulgated to switch from the then dominant bridgestones to michelin, I imagine precisely for this reason. I don't think the bike would be nimble whatever the tyres with the current design, but with tyres like the 2007 tyres the other characteristics of the bike, and the engine which is till strong and might be more so if they reverted to the screamer might be enough as it was in 2007 to overcome this, particularly if the front-end instability problems went away as they well might with a front tyre designed for the bike and less difficult to keep heat in.
I have no doubt that Ducati saw the writing on the wall then, obviously Bridgestone has a rather large market in Japanese bikes, more than most of them come out with Bridgestone's standard, Ducati uses Pirelli predominately for the road issue as stock. Considering the relative sales numbers, its not surprising that Bridgestone started to pay less attention to Ducati after they scored the services of the two top Japanese Motogp teams in 2008.
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It can be taken further to encompass the general barrier to entry into MotoGP. Honda and Yamaha have such strong history and therefore such a strong technical advantage that manufacturers wanting to compete have to try to develop alternative technologies or components to out flank the big two. This is why Ducati went CF and Stressed Engine and prior to 2008 worked with Bridgestone to develop the tyres to suit their particular development path and ideology.
With the option to develop different components restricted the opportunity to truly prototype is basically removed leaving other manufacturers to bring technology that resembles that used by Honda and Yamaha which brings us back to the beginning where Honda and Yamaha have such strong history and data bank based around these designs that no one can compete.
Pure And Simple!!! VR CAN’T RIDE THE DUCATI
And he will never ever be able to ride the Ducati to the level that he did the Yamaha or the Honda …It Takes Real Talent And BALLS to ride THE PROVERBIAL BEAST LIKE CS DID RIDE THE BEAST!!!....
CS is the GODFATHER OF THE DUCATI!!! :nopity:NAHH NAHH NAHH NA NA NAH...La La La Laaaa Laaaa :nopity:etc etc
CS is the GODFATHER OF THE DUCATI!!! :nopity:NAHH NAHH NAHH NA NA NAH...La La La Laaaa Laaaa :nopity:etc etc
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I really hope they return to the screamer. The sound was fantastic. Apart from the "music", and from the tire issue, it is possible that a key to understanding the Ducati lies there.
It's unsurprising that people found the need to turn this into a 'Stoner is better than Rossi' or 'Rossi is better than Stoner' argument, without really discussing the points raised.
The interesting parts of the article are that:
- Hayden has taken a step BACKWARDS compared to last year.
- Rossi seems to have performed quite well in terms of lap time compared to Casey - leading to the impression that although the race results are worse the question needs to be asked: Is this due to the improvement of the rivals, or is it a consequence of Valentino not riding the bike well enough?
It seems Ducati is having serious issues with the latest iteration of the BStones.
http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/26072011/66/rossi-wants-ducati-progress.html
Ducati team manager Vittoriano Guareschi said the behaviour of Bridgestone's tyres this year was a big part of the problems.
"Our bike is like handling an eel: you grab it from one side, but it slips away from the other side. The Desmosedici doesn't turn, and if it does it's not in a normal manner," Guareschi told Motosprint.
"On our bike the front Bridgestone tyres works differently compared to the other bikes, and our riders lack feeling.
"I don't know what they have done, or what has happened, but this year's Bridgestones have certainly changed compared to 2010: they are even harder, making it difficult for our bike.
"We are unable to understand what's different compared to before. The riders feel loss of front grip and slide sideways at turn entry, and this seems even stranger considering that Nicky has the same set-up as last year. It doesn't add up, but the reality is that our bike slides sideways without warning.
"All our riders crash this way. The tyre doesn't warn them when it lets them down."
He said the GP11.1 was not improving the situation, but rather making it worse.
"No, in fact the problem is even worse. You struggle even more to find the balance. Now, however, Jeremy (Burgess) is back, and we are using again his working method that has brought so much success for Valentino.
"We suffered his absence in the two races he missed. Now we are trying to organise the second half of the season in a better way."
The interesting parts of the article are that:
- Hayden has taken a step BACKWARDS compared to last year.
- Rossi seems to have performed quite well in terms of lap time compared to Casey - leading to the impression that although the race results are worse the question needs to be asked: Is this due to the improvement of the rivals, or is it a consequence of Valentino not riding the bike well enough?
It seems Ducati is having serious issues with the latest iteration of the BStones.
http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/26072011/66/rossi-wants-ducati-progress.html
Ducati team manager Vittoriano Guareschi said the behaviour of Bridgestone's tyres this year was a big part of the problems.
"Our bike is like handling an eel: you grab it from one side, but it slips away from the other side. The Desmosedici doesn't turn, and if it does it's not in a normal manner," Guareschi told Motosprint.
"On our bike the front Bridgestone tyres works differently compared to the other bikes, and our riders lack feeling.
"I don't know what they have done, or what has happened, but this year's Bridgestones have certainly changed compared to 2010: they are even harder, making it difficult for our bike.
"We are unable to understand what's different compared to before. The riders feel loss of front grip and slide sideways at turn entry, and this seems even stranger considering that Nicky has the same set-up as last year. It doesn't add up, but the reality is that our bike slides sideways without warning.
"All our riders crash this way. The tyre doesn't warn them when it lets them down."
He said the GP11.1 was not improving the situation, but rather making it worse.
"No, in fact the problem is even worse. You struggle even more to find the balance. Now, however, Jeremy (Burgess) is back, and we are using again his working method that has brought so much success for Valentino.
"We suffered his absence in the two races he missed. Now we are trying to organise the second half of the season in a better way."
I think you're mistaken in your reading of the original article. It actually doesn't focus on lap time at all, but rather total race time, which as I highlighted in an earlier response, is a completely flawed measure of outright performance.
I also pointed to the first round performance comparisons from Qatar as a useful reference check on relative performance. If we now take a quick view of the last 2 GPs (Sachsenring & Laguna Seca), let's see how the relative performance looks now just on outright speed (QP & Fastest Race laps only) to just look at pure performance.
2010 Sachsenring
QP:
Stoner 1.21.841
Hayden 1.23.090
RACE Fastest Laps:
Stoner 1.22.135
Hayden 1.22.604
2011 Sachsenring
QP:
Rossi 1.23.320
Hayden 1.22.388
RACE Fastest Laps:
Rossi 1.22.802
Hayden 1.22.787
2010 Laguna Seca
QP:
Stoner 1.21.169
Hayden 1.21.920
RACE Fastest Laps:
Stoner 1.21.376
Hayden 1.22.112
2011 Laguna Seca
QP:
Rossi 1.22.235
Hayden 1.22.271
RACE Fastest Laps:
Rossi 1.22.520
Hayden 1.22.704
FYI, for all those thinking that the gap to Ducati is just accentuated by how much faster the 2011 Honda is compared to the rest, the 2011 Fastest Lap of the Race (by race winner Stoner) was only 1.21.673, a full 0.3sec slower than the fastest lap of the race from 2010 (again Stoner, but on the pig of a Ducati).
So then it begs the question what has changed so much in 2011, for the Ducatis to be slower. Well the well documented Bridgestone tyres I would guess would be the popular answer. But again, we have a direct comparison to last year with Nicky Hayden on a very similar bike (not on the GP11.1), and we can try to quantify the impact of the tyres. It looks like at Laguna Seca he was 0.35sec slower in QP, and then even more slower in the race, but clearly he was held up due to not being able to pass Rossi, so could have gone faster. But in Germany, he 0.7sec faster in QP this year, but 0.1sec slower in the race this year.
So it's tough to directly quantify, but I think it's safe to say that if ducati were just able to match their times from last year (not improve at all - which shouldn't have been too hard) they would be much closer to the pointy end of the field and battling for podiums I would guess. In fact if they could have matched the fastest race lap of a ducati from 2010, they would have comfortably been the fastes bike in the field!!!
Food for thought. Perhaps they should have paid all the Ducati engineers to take the winter off and just roll out the 2010 bike again for 2011.....hindsight is a wonderful thing.
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All times by all riders were slower at Laguna compared to last year -- even Stoner could not improve on himself, for the first time this season, and this says a lot -- why? Because of the deteriorating condition of the track, with bumps etc. All riders reported that.
I personally like these comparisons for whatever they're worth, but all variables should be considered.
I personally like these comparisons for whatever they're worth, but all variables should be considered.
Absolutely brilliant russf1.... So tyres are allegedly Ducati's nemesis this season yet Hayden posts a 7/10 faster lap time than last year at Germany. But going with this theory then Rossi at Germany surely would have also beaten Stoners time from last year of 1:21.8 being the best of the best, but oh dear.. Rossi qualified at 1:23.3.... Thats 3/10 slower than Haydens time last year.... But this cant be, if the tyres clearly worked better than last year and the 7/10 improvement in quali from Hayden would suggest this then what happened to #46 ?????
I know it must be the shoulder lol....
Typical Boner logic, only highlight the races that help your moronic cause.........using Germany and Laguna-conveniently leaving out the others which tell a much different story
GPone's article was comparing the years, no doubt due to the immense amount of ........ being sprouted by Boners on the direct comparisons they like to make.
Catalunya 2011, Rossi was 1 second faster than Stoner was last year, Last season Stoner finished 3rd, Rossi finished 5th this year.
Le mans, this year Rossi was 26 laps and over 40 minutes faster than Stoner was last year.........
Qatar, this year Rossi was 17 laps and over 40 minutes faster than Stoner was last year..........
Jerez it was raining, no comparison-all were much slower. Silverstone Rain-No comparison-all were much slower. Assen rain-arctic wind-no comparison all were much slower.
Mugello the track was re-sufaced, no real comparison-but using boner logic I will, Rossi was over 35 seconds quicker than Stoner was last year.
to finish first one must first finish-So far the only thing to conclude from this, is that Rossi is consistently much quicker than Stoner was last season.........whilst re-building the bike, which is a piece of .....
Typical Boner logic, only highlight the races that help your moronic cause.........using Germany and Laguna-conveniently leaving out the others which tell a much different story
GPone's article was comparing the years, no doubt due to the immense amount of ........ being sprouted by Boners on the direct comparisons they like to make.
Catalunya 2011, Rossi was 1 second faster than Stoner was last year, Last season Stoner finished 3rd, Rossi finished 5th this year.
Le mans, this year Rossi was 26 laps and over 40 minutes faster than Stoner was last year.........
Qatar, this year Rossi was 17 laps and over 40 minutes faster than Stoner was last year..........
Jerez it was raining, no comparison-all were much slower. Silverstone Rain-No comparison-all were much slower. Assen rain-arctic wind-no comparison all were much slower.
Mugello the track was re-sufaced, no real comparison-but using boner logic I will, Rossi was over 35 seconds quicker than Stoner was last year.
to finish first one must first finish-So far the only thing to conclude from this, is that Rossi is consistently much quicker than Stoner was last season.........whilst re-building the bike, which is a piece of .....
Denial - It's a ..... ain't it? Stoner was still getting wins & podiums every year on the Ducati.
Rossi isn't even close. He is just another rider on the red machine. You can make all the excuses you like.
He's had 5 times as many updates as any other 800cc Ducati rider and he still can't get within cooee of the race leaders.
Typical Boner logic, only highlight the races that help your moronic cause.........using Germany and Laguna-conveniently leaving out the others which tell a much different story
GPone's article was comparing the years, no doubt due to the immense amount of ........ being sprouted by Boners on the direct comparisons they like to make.
Catalunya 2011, Rossi was 1 second faster than Stoner was last year, Last season Stoner finished 3rd, Rossi finished 5th this year.
Le mans, this year Rossi was 26 laps and over 40 minutes faster than Stoner was last year.........
Qatar, this year Rossi was 17 laps and over 40 minutes faster than Stoner was last year..........
Jerez it was raining, no comparison-all were much slower. Silverstone Rain-No comparison-all were much slower. Assen rain-arctic wind-no comparison all were much slower.
Mugello the track was re-sufaced, no real comparison-but using boner logic I will, Rossi was over 35 seconds quicker than Stoner was last year.
to finish first one must first finish-So far the only thing to conclude from this, is that Rossi is consistently much quicker than Stoner was last season.........whilst re-building the bike, which is a piece of .....
omg.. talpa do you really want to go there, ok i will.
The three circuits you have brought up are pointed out below without your skewed view on it.
FACT: mugello 2010- stoner on .... box (your words !) quali 1:49.4
2011- rossi quali on much improved jb enhanced bike 1:49.9 (for the ignorant few out there thats 1/2 sec slower from the great one.
Qatar- 2010- stoner quali 1:55.0 (3/10 quicker than rossi on the well set up yamaha)
2011- rossi 1:55.6 (6/10 slower)
Lemans- 2010- stoner quali 1:33.8
2011- rossi 1:34.2 (4/10 slower)
We can keep going if you like... but it only makes you and your skewed facts look more ridiculous.
Once again to use your words stoner was on a heap of .... and rossi is on the same bike which many enhancements performed by jb and crew.
Taking overall race times is ridiculous as there are too many variables to consider ie- was person leading and backed rihht off with few laps from finish to safe guard result, was rider stuck in traffic due to poor start for half the race, but a man of your knowledge would know all this Surely.
What is the point of racing for 30 odd laps, and the points system derived from these races to determine the world champion then?
35 seconds difference in the race........
40 minutes difference in the race.......
40 minutes difference in the race........
Never has a member name been more apt...........This is a world championship!!!! If it was decided in fast laps then Marco Simoncelli would have 10 titles by now!
Your signature has just cemented what we all knew to be more than apparent when considering your view, not even Baz has fanboyed it up this much yet! Nor any Boppers for that matter, making discussion pointless......... I suggest you and Gumball would be far happier posting on Caseystoner.com.
Oh & for what it's worth. I like doing signatures. Nothing to do with being a fan boy.
Just to prove you are in fact a knob. Everyone knows it except you it seems.
I must be a fanboy for every rider on the grid then huh?
You wrote 40 mins difference in two races, im not quite sure thats correct but if it helps you get through the day well then more power to you.
You are absolutely correct though in saying fast times in quali does not maketh a champion, or Simo would be rock star status by now.... but last time i checked overall time per race meant jack .... !!
I was going to point out where vale is right now in comparison to casey but im sure that would be a futile excercise as you refuse to be reasonable or rational and i sense anger and hatred in your tone and i dont want to make your life any more miserable than it must be. Truly i dont.
The comment with regards to my username being apt i found very amusing. If i may i looked up the description of the name Talpa and there was a picture of a frustrated man clutching at what grey hair he had left on his head wearing a rossi t-shirt but sporting a Stoner flag rolled up in his back pocket.... sound familiar ?
