Rossi v Stoner: On the Ducati

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BarryMachine said:
Stoner won 7 races in that period ......... on a Ducati ......... the same Ducati Rossi can only get a rare podium. That's the difference.
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Good point, explain to me though why he didnt win the championship in those 2years? 7 race wins is pretty awesome, especially on that fickle machine. Was it because he had to ride beyond the limits of what the bike was capable of and binned it as much as he won on it? Was it because Ducati wouldnt listen to him when it came to development? Comparing the 2 over that period doesnt mean .... Barry. If 2007 and the following 2 seasons can be referred to RE Stoner then so can 2009 and the 2 following seasons RE Rossi. In 2007 Stoner won, 2009 got ill, 2010 rode a ..... bike. In 2009 Rossi won, 2010 nailed himself, 2011 rode a ..... bike. Just because Rossi isnt winning on that bike doesnt mean nowt, apart from the fact that Stoner made Ducati look good when the truth is they really are .........



Noone in their right mind would deny Stoner is a special talent, he's a freak. To say that Rossi is ordinary though is pretty much insane given his achievements so far
 
basspete said:
I don't get wound up, I just find it sad that you genuinely may think you have a clue what you are talking about.



Bless, nice when they try isn't it!
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I tried Babel'ing that from Scottish to English but it won't do it ......... WTF are you on about here ?
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spooky said:
Good point, explain to me though why he didnt win the championship in those 2years? 7 race wins is pretty awesome, especially on that fickle machine. Was it because he had to ride beyond the limits of what the bike was capable of and binned it as much as he won on it? Was it because Ducati wouldnt listen to him when it came to development? Comparing the 2 over that period doesnt mean .... Barry. If 2007 and the following 2 seasons can be referred to RE Stoner then so can 2009 and the 2 following seasons RE Rossi. In 2007 Stoner won, 2009 got ill, 2010 rode a ..... bike. In 2009 Rossi won, 2010 nailed himself, 2011 rode a ..... bike. Just because RossComparing like with like though, which is their i isnt winning on that bike doesnt mean nowt, apart from the fact that Stoner made Ducati look good when the truth is they really are .........



Noone in their right mind would deny Stoner is a special talent, he's a freak. To say that Rossi is ordinary though is pretty much insane given his achievements so far
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No way is rossi ordinary of course, and nor was carlo pernat saying he was.



Comparing like with like over the 6 years both have been in the premier class though, which is all that can be compared directly, and over which period injury, illness, luck, equipment etc have a fair chance of evening out , it is currently 2 championships to one in rossi's favour which may end up at equality, and 30 wins to 26 in stoner's favour. End of story. It has been argued that if stoner was as good as rossi he should have won five championships in this period, but then if rossi was as good as rossi then rossi should have similarly won 5 championships
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, which he didn't; he will have won two, and it is hard imo to argue he has had more obstacles than stoner has had in this period.



All jokes aside , stoner will not match rossi's overall record which as mick doohan said requires consistent excellence for more than a decade which probably only one other rider in history has managed, and that rider was not mick himself good as he was. It also requires skills even apart from inhuman riding talent, in particular staying on or moving to the right bike, which valentino has managed well until now.



Those of us with long memories remember absolute viciousness and gloating in misfortune in respect to stoner particularly in 2009; it was wrong in regard to someone who had been capable of winning a world championship in the fashion he did even once, which makes it more wrong in regard to someone who has won 7 championships. Although the proverb about sowing and reaping does come to mind, I do basically agree that enough is enough.
 
michaelm said:
No way is rossi ordinary of course, and nor was carlo pernat saying he was.



Comparing like with like over the 6 years both have been in the premier class though, which is all that can be compared directly, and over which period injury, illness, luck, equipment etc has a fair chance of evening out , it is currently 2 championships to one in rossi's favour which may end up at equality, and 30 wins to 26. End of story. It has been argued that if stoner was as good as rossi he should have won five championships in this period, but then if rossi was as good as rossi then rossi should have similarly won 5 championships
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, which he didn't; he will have won two, and it is hard imo to argue he has had more obstacles than stoner has had in this period.



All jokes aside , stoner will not match rossi's overall record which as mick doohan said requires consistent excellence for more than a decade which probably only one other rider in history has managed, and that rider was not mick himself good as he was. It also requires skills even apart from inhuman riding talent, in particular staying on or moving to the right bike, which he has managed well until now.



Those of us with long memories remember absolute viciousness and gloating in misfortune in respect to stoner particularly in 2009; it was wrong in regard to someone who had been capable of winning a world championship in the fashion he did even once, which makes it more wrong in regard to someone who has won 7 championships. Although the proverb about sowing and reaping and sowing does come to mind, I do basically agree that enough is enough.
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Great post Michael. You've said all that i meant to say (in my typically more convuluted way).
 
digger said:
Gumby, clearly you either have never ridden a bike, and or never ridden a bike at race pace. False neutrals going up the box are bad enough, causing a real lack in drive which ..... u and the bloke slipstreaming u. False neutrals going down the box is even worse as u are jamming on the anchors at ur marker, and expecting the brakes and clutch to slow u down, but when the clutch doesn't lock up, u will most likely run wide trying to pull the bike up.



Maybe u could take this little pearl of wisdom and teach Rossi how to ride properly.
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Geez thx for that information digger my life is enriched from it. I know what false neutrals are but if you read my post i simply said imo rossi was not being truthful about the false neutrals occuring !



He is too proud to admit rider error so is always quick to point the finger at something or someone else.



Also to correct you, you said false Neutrals are worst for the person behind you... I dont recall anyone being behind him !



So you havent answered my question on how Rdp out performed team red without the special jb bits... i note on the slo motion vids of the riders comparison he seems to ride similar aggressive style to casey..









 
Mr Squiggle said:
It is great to hear people finally crediting Stoner for his performances on the Duke and I applaud those who admit they were wrong in their assesment of his talents
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Now if some people could use that same logic to apply to other riders it would be great. But I'm not holding my breath.
 
gumby1 said:
Geez thx for that information digger my life is enriched from it. I know what false neutrals are but if you read my post i simply said imo rossi was not being truthful about the false neutrals occuring !



He is too proud to admit rider error so is always quick to point the finger at something or someone else.



Also to correct you, you said false Neutrals are worst for the person behind you... I dont recall anyone being behind him !



So you havent answered my question on how Rdp out performed team red without the special jb bits... i note on the slo motion vids of the riders comparison he seems to ride similar aggressive style to casey..



I'm not even going to start this rider excuse argument, as I haven't the time more patience to deal with that ......... Speaking to you is like masturbating with a cheese grater, amusing at first, but generally painful
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Digger, why did u quote Gumby? U dont think the first time we read it was horrible enuf?
 
Haha sorry mate, I just like picking on the special kids, makes me feel tough
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Interesting i see you dont want to get into the "who's better rider bs" have you noticed the title of this topic ROSSI VS STONER... I have confirmed in last post that you dont read very well but this is the nail in the coffin...



And a tip if you dont want to see something that may upset you, dont go looking for it princess !



My suggestion is tp Stick to the posts titled "how the 9 time champ finally conquered the duc" or "what a great win from #46" although i cant seem to find these, not sure why.



Bahahaha
 
Gumby, I try not to get involved in those sort of arguments, as they go nowhere and give me to much ....... headache.



Now, go get your safety scissors and your red crayon, cut yourself a circle of paper and see if you can write your name on it for me. Theres a good lad...
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Aside from BackitinBarry, I don't think anyone wants to see VR or Ducati where they are.

I'm a major Ducati fan, and am a fan of the style and ability of Rossi, but I am totally not a fan of the delusional yellow army that follows Rossi, and attacks anyone who challenges or questions the ability of the great one.

Rossi is just like the rest of us, gets up, eats breakfast, takes a crap, and does what he has to do to be as successful as possible.

There is a huge dose of karma in the failure of Rossi on the Ducati. It will be hurting his ego, probably hurting his value in the sport, and probably for the first time ever he will be questioning whether he can turn the bike into a race winning bike.

Rossi's digs at other riders (like the hex on Gibbers) is all part of the game, and I have no problem with that, but some of the attacks on other riders by mindless Rossi follows have been completely over the top.

Whilst I am not happy to see Rossi or Ducati really struggling, Rossi's fate is largely due to his own doing, so it is what it is, but I am happy to give a big '.... you' to some of the yellow army while they are down, as payback for the .... that has gone past.

Give respect, where respect is due.



And ps.... that means giving respect to Rossi too (and Pedro, Biaggi, Simoncelli, and anyone else who have been villified).
 
Nuts said:
Aside from BackitinBarry, I don't think anyone wants to see VR or Ducati where they are.

I'm a major Ducati fan, and am a fan of the style and ability of Rossi, but I am totally not a fan of the delusional yellow army that follows Rossi, and attacks anyone who challenges or questions the ability of the great one.

Rossi is just like the rest of us, gets up, eats breakfast, takes a crap, and does what he has to do to be as successful as possible.

There is a huge dose of karma in the failure of Rossi on the Ducati. It will be hurting his ego, probably hurting his value in the sport, and probably for the first time ever he will be questioning whether he can turn the bike into a race winning bike.

Rossi's digs at other riders (like the hex on Gibbers) is all part of the game, and I have no problem with that, but some of the attacks on other riders by mindless Rossi follows have been completely over the top.

Whilst I am not happy to see Rossi or Ducati really struggling, Rossi's fate is largely due to his own doing, so it is what it is, but I am happy to give a big '.... you' to some of the yellow army while they are down, as payback for the .... that has gone past.

Give respect, where respect is due.



And ps.... that means giving respect to Rossi too (and Pedro, Biaggi, Simoncelli, and anyone else who have been villified).
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Sorry, I'm a bit of a Biaggi fan. I like his style. Yes the same style that runs wide all the time and blames the bike. So I suffer every week he rides because I have to endure him running wide and stuffing up on the best bike out there. I even turned on my idol Doohan because he broke poor Biaggi.

Now Rossi, I dont like his style so much, but since he's been struggling away, running wide at Indy and coming up with all these excuses, you know I'm starting to like him a whole lot more. He now reminds me of someone else........................

The Rossi story could be so much better if through all the trials and tribulations this year, he wins at least one race next year. So lets wait and see.................
 
GPOne lost in their own analysis comparing the two. For me, it's pretty easy to see the different without using any numbers from statistic or going technical. How each rider make their approach when first time riding the Ducati made the different.



Both Rossi and Stoner arrived at Ducati in a state of healing from injuries.



Stoner didn't change anything or don't have the opportunity to make changes with his status as a second rider. He just learn the bike, the team and focus on his adaptation to the bike.



Rossi has set his position in Ducati as a lead rider and start changing a lots of things and didn't take much time to learn about the Ducati. He want the bike suit to his riding styles. So, he convey the needs to the engineer to develop a new bike that suit him.



The rest is history how both riders approaches has turned out. Stoner got a fast results while Rossi is suffering. Who knows, may be Rossi approach will show some results in due time or simply Rossi has felt into his own mistake fixing something that hasn't broken.
 
To be fair, Nero, arriving at Ducati in 2007 was much, much better than arriving there in 2011. In 2007 you had a Ducati that was absolutely dominant with Stoner (and that's Stoner's credit), but could still occasionally podium and even win with Capirossi, and even the Pramac Ducati with Barros could hit the top five.



Now, no way a Ducati can be that competitive. In the normal pecking order of 2011 the best a Ducati can do is fighting for 7th place against a Suzuki or another Ducati, since the Hondas and Yamahas seem untouchable for them and regularly fill the positions from 1st to 6th, barring DNFs. Rossi has arrived in front of Lorenzo and Simoncelli when they had some problems, but that's about it. Only when some of those first six riders have DNFs, he can hope for something better.



Would Stoner have won any races this year on a Ducati? It's the classical empty question... He won 3 races in 2010, in a steady decline from the 10 wins of 2007. Maybe his favorite Qatar, where he had a DNF in 2010 but was fastest. Maybe Jerez in the wet (which Rossi also could have won this year on the Ducati). It's anybody's guess. What we know for sure is that his (completed) race times of 2010 would not have won any race so far, in 2011. And the Ducati has not improved compared to last year, suffice it to look at Hayden for that.
 
Thanks Gaz. Saying that Rossi is a brakes rider (I would say trail-braking rider) and Stoner is a throttle rider is maybe oversimplified, still it helps in explaining the fact that Rossi on the Duck is a shadow of himself. If the Duck doesn't allow that level of trail-braking, then Rossi can't ride it like Rossi.
 

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