Rossi v Stoner: On the Ducati

You had to look that up?



Actually I'm not surprised.

The qualifying stats when comparing these two on a Ducati are very revealling.....



2010 Qualifying - Casey Stoner



Best qualifying position 2010 - 1st

Worst qualifying position 2010 - 6th



Average Grid Position over 18 Races = 3rd



2011 Qualifying - Valentino Rossi



Best qualifying position 2011 - 7th

Worst qualifying position 2011 - 16th



Average Grid Position over 10 Races = 11th (rounded up)



So Rossi has yet to even equal Stoners WORST qualifying result from last year....food for thought

Goatboy said:

You had to look that up?

Actually I'm not surprised.

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Yeah sadly I was not born with this knowledge.



Did you know that from birth?





Edit: It just dawned on me Goat ..... I did know how many times Rossi has won on the Duc. when I was born, ...... Nothing

Goatboy said:

I understand, I understand that these comparisons are not telling you what you want to hear so you are upset. You thought you had eradicated all doubt about Stoner but you haven't. You're just going to have to live with it I'm afraid.



However if you seriously think that any data is disregarded, especially in Ducati's situation, well you're just being naive.

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You are bizarre. I have never detected this level of ignorance in you before. Hang onto what ever you like about Stoner if it makes you feel good. You are in a very exclusive club because the rest of the world has debunked any myth that there was about Stoner.



The naivety in this conversation lies in your interpretation of what data is. When you can post a link that even implies that a team values even remotely the times done in previous years and refers to it as data then your argument may have some weight. Until then look in on us back here on earth from time to time will you.

Mental Anarchist said:

You are bizarre. I have never detected this level of ignorance in you before. Hang onto what ever you like about Stoner if it makes you feel good. You are in a very exclusive club because the rest of the world has debunked any myth that there was about Stoner.



The naivety in this conversation lies in your interpretation of what data is. When you can post a link that even implies that a team values even remotely the times done in previous years and refers to it as data then your argument may have some weight. Until then look in on us back here on earth from time to time will you.

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& The thing is you think you sound any different to a "Bopper", inherent irony.



Lap times = data, if a rider has reverted to last years settings, or older settings (for whatever reason) you don't think last years times are a factor to be taken into consideration? You don't think it may help to understand what works & what doesn't? Hypothetical conversation:



Engineer: "Jesus we are 4 tenths down in sector three!"



Rider: "Wasn't that our best sector last year?"



Engineer: "Yeah, maybe we should bring out last years settings & sector times & do a comparison?"



Rider: "It's worth a try, maybe they can tell us something,"



Use of data.

Ducati Team’s MotoGP Project Director, Alessandro Cicognani, reflected on the beginning of the season for the team. “Let’s just say that it was a difficult start, we were expecting a lot more, but we had some problems at the beginning with Vale recovering from his shoulder injury and Nicky finding the right feeling with the bike.”



Cicognani made the expectations for the upcoming second part of the season for Ducati Team clear. “Our expectation is to improve: Day by day, race by race, we want to compete for victory and we work hard every single time to achieve this result, we just have to work, this is the only way we know,” he concluded.



No mention of last years lap times?

Goatboy said:

& The thing is you think you sound any different to a "Bopper", inherent irony.



Lap times = data, if a rider has reverted to last years settings, or older settings (for whatever reason) you don't think last years times are a factor to be taken into consideration? You don't think it may help to understand what works & what doesn't? Hypothetical conversation:



Engineer: "Jesus we are 4 tenths down in sector three!"



Rider: "Wasn't that our best sector last year?"



Engineer: "Yeah, maybe we should bring out last years settings & sector times & do a comparison?"



Rider: "It's worth a try, maybe they can tell us something,"



Use of data.

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In general you are correct, but the whole reason ducati are where they are is because they decided in 2009 that stoner's riding style was too eccentric for a bike developed for him to be of any use to anyone else, and hence his data would presumably be similarly regarded ( I think they or the marlboro man anyway encouraged by a wide body of other amateur psychologists/psychiatrists also decided he was flaky). Valentino has also said that he can't or chooses not to emulate stoner's riding method. .



What they ended up with in 2010 was a bike which not only couldn't be ridden fast by riders other than stoner, but was also unstable for everyone including him, and this seems to be persistent for the current bike(s) . I think it is harsh to blame stoner for this, since they were deliberately trying to make the bike rideable for riders other than him. I don't think it is valentino's fault either, imo the bike with its current design is undevelopable, or not into a bike which can be ridden fast other than by stoner's method anyway. Valentino is currently riding a bike designed by ducati according to what they thought would suit him rather than what rossi +/- jb would want starting from scratch. Rossi and jb fairly obviously underestimated the flaws and technical challenges of the bike though.

I read on autosprt.com that Vale is waiting for Duc to make more improvements.



Its ironic that Duc also is waiting for their multi million $ investment to make improvements !



Jb is blaming ducati for lack of results.



Vale is following suit saying "i wonder how long this will take them". once again a sentiment ewually shared at Duc about the great one himself performing.



Ducati are blaming Brudgestone.



Bridgestone will say Casey seemed to do ok.. (granted Duc feel there is a definate drop in performance in tyre compounds from last season)



Whilst the 3 best riders in the sport are putting on a great show up front.

Casey too had tyre problems of late and Jorge had that huge off at laguna practice and don't start me on how tough Dani is to bounce back to race winning pace through what he has been through.



Dealing with adversity is what seperates true champions from the rest.

RCV600RR said:

http://www.gpone.com...a-distanza.html



GpOne wrote a very interesting article detailing the difference in performance between Rossi and Stoner on the Ducati. It's a fascinating read, if academic.

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I disagree - I actually think it's a completely flawed measure of performance to look at just the total race time. It is one aspect to consider, but there are too many variables around the circumstances each of the riders found themselves in within the context of the race, that will affect the total time. Were they in a battle for position and pushing throughout, did they run wide or off during the race and then recovered (adding a chunk of time that's not obvious when you look back), were they in a comfortable lead or gap and backed off to preserve position towards the end of the race, and so on.



At the start of the season I started a thread analysing Qatar performance from 2011 to 2010, which was based around laptimes, and considering there was a pre season test at Qatar, it was a good track to use as a reference, as all teams had plenty of opportunity to arrive at a reasonable track setting. It's historically a good track for Ducati as well, so hopefully that didn't skew the analysis in favour of Ducati.



Anyway, to refresh your memory: http://www.powerslide.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=13805



An early season comparison I believe was very valid, as Ducati admitted the 2011 bike was very similar to 2010 season ending bike (at some sessions early in the year they even admitted trying Casey's settings on Rossi's bike), and there was Hayden's presence across both seasons as a constant reference point. I think from the point that Ducati introduced the GP11.1, then these direct laptime comparisons with 2010 now become not so relevant, as the bike is now significantly different to 2010. (Not saying better, just different!!!)

gumby1 said:

I read on autosprt.com that Vale is waiting for Duc to make more improvements.



Its ironic that Duc also is waiting for their multi million $ investment to make improvements !



Jb is blaming ducati for lack of results.



Vale is following suit saying "i wonder how long this will take them". once again a sentiment ewually shared at Duc about the great one himself performing.



Ducati are blaming Brudgestone.



Bridgestone will say Casey seemed to do ok.. (granted Duc feel there is a definate drop in performance in tyre compounds from last season)



Whilst the 3 best riders in the sport are putting on a great show up front.

Casey too had tyre problems of late and Jorge had that huge off at laguna practice and don't start me on how tough Dani is to bounce back to race winning pace through what he has been through.



Dealing with adversity is what seperates true champions from the rest.

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That is an interesting article in that VG dumps the problem squarely on Bridgestones shoulders. What is worse they say that they don't know why but it is Bridgestones fault.



Ducati are in a real mess as no one in the team seems to be taking responsibility and all are blaming the next person for the problems. As a result I do not think that they can sort the problems out. It also gives some credibility to my comments on the other thread about the changes to Bridgestones tyres for next year (softer construction) and this year (softer compound) being done to appease Ducati. If Ducati are prepared to ..... this loudly in public then imagine what is going on behind the scenes.



I am now really starting to believe that Rossi will not be riding a Ducati in MotoGP next year. I would not be surprised to see Rossi in a single rider Yamaha Team next year. This would be a HUGE PR gain for Yamaha and would secure Rossi as a PR figure along side the other Yamaha greats for life.

Mental Anarchist said:

That is an interesting article in that VG dumps the problem squarely on Bridgestones shoulders. What is worse they say that they don't know why but it is Bridgestones fault.



Ducati are in a real mess as no one in the team seems to be taking responsibility and all are blaming the next person for the problems. As a result I do not think that they can sort the problems out. It also gives some credibility to my comments on the other thread about the changes to Bridgestones tyres for next year (softer construction) and this year (softer compound) being done to appease Ducati. If Ducati are prepared to ..... this loudly in public then imagine what is going on behind the scenes.



I am now really starting to believe that Rossi will not be riding a Ducati in MotoGP next year. I would not be surprised to see Rossi in a single rider Yamaha Team next year. This would be a HUGE PR gain for Yamaha and would secure Rossi as a PR figure along side the other Yamaha greats for life.

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I actually agree he cant afford to endure another year of embarrasment at team red and go down with the ship.

Jb has had more thsn enough time to transform the bike but im afraid he's simply rearranging the deck chairs on the titanic.

gumby1 said:

I actually agree he cant afford to endure another year of embarrasment at team red and go down with the ship.

Jb has had more thsn enough time to transform the bike but im afraid he's simply rearranging the deck chairs on the titanic.

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Agreed. It would be no way for either Rossi or JB to close out their career. Personally I don't think they have another championship in them even with a Yamaha because the front 3 are just too fast and too consistent but they can still get amongst it and finish their careers with dignity.

michaelm said:

In general you are correct, but the whole reason ducati are where they are is because they decided in 2009 that stoner's riding style was too eccentric for a bike developed for him to be of any use to anyone else, and hence his data would presumably be similarly regarded ( I think they or the marlboro man anyway encouraged by a wide body of other amateur psychologists/psychiatrists also decided he was flaky). Valentino has also said that he can't or chooses not to emulate stoner's riding method. .



What they ended up with in 2010 was a bike which not only couldn't be ridden fast by riders other than stoner, but was also unstable for everyone including him, and this seems to be persistent for the current bike(s) . I think it is harsh to blame stoner for this, since they were deliberately trying to make the bike rideable for riders other than him. I don't think it is valentino's fault either, imo the bike with its current design is undevelopable, or not into a bike which can be ridden fast other than by stoner's method anyway. Valentino is currently riding a bike designed by ducati according to what they thought would suit him rather than what rossi +/- jb would want starting from scratch. Rossi and jb fairly obviously underestimated the flaws and technical challenges of the bike though.

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Mate, I've been winding you up & I'm bored now, peace.

What I found interesting was that the table of race times at the bottom did not support this statement

For example, in the first 9 races of 2011 (Sachsenring 2010 is impossible to consider, since the race was interrupted) the Italian was faster over the race distance, compared to Casey in 2010, on three occasions: at Barcelona, by a few tenths; at Assen, by about 10 seconds; and at Mugello, where the gap was nearly 30 seconds, and likely influenced by the new asphalt. He was slower only once, however, at Laguna Seca by 24 seconds.

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Assuming the table is correct (can't be arsed checking) Stoner was faster at Assen 2010 than Rossi in 2011 by 50 seconds, not slower by 10 as GPOne claim, he was also faster than Rossi 2011 at Silverstone (can't be compared due to rain in 2011) and Jerez (can't be compared as Rossi had to get back on after skittling Stoner in 2011).



In summary he was a gnats .... faster at Catalunya, faster almost certainly due to the new asphalt at Mugello, and slower or can't be compared everywhere else. Don't see how anyone but the most strenuous bopper could find anything good in these statistics for Rossi.

Ducati should never have let Stoner go. But even with Stoner, they would not be competing for the title any more. Stoner won 10 races in 2007, 6 in 2008, 4 in 2009 and 3 in 2010. The trend was more than clear and Casey did quit at the right time.





The root problem of Ducati may well be the tires.



When Yamaha and Honda got the Bridgestones in 2008, and then in 2009 the control tire began, many said "Ducati is fucd". Now you see the demonstration of that. The Bridgestones are developed on and for Jap bikes that all share a common design base. All are blaming the Ducati for its modest performance in 2011, speaking of design flaws. Maybe the design is flawed, I have thought a lot about that, but...



The current control tires are developed on bikes with twin spar aluminum frames, -- so much that now even the Suzuki is doing better. But year after year the tires get worse and worse for the Ducati. This fact will force the Ducati into the same direction as the Japs, but it is possible that there is nothing inherently wrong with their design. The wrong could be only relative to the available tires. With ad hoc tires, that same design could work fine...

Kropo posts an interesting fact on his site: King Carlos (Checa) set better times with his sbk ducati this weekend than VR with gp11. this really make you think wtf is wrong in the ducati?

What's wrong is that Bridgestone and Ducati are now almost incompatible (unless it rains, when they seem made for each other). The miracle man who was able to make them work together is gone, and anyway even for him it was an increasingly uphill task -- every year it gets worse. It is forbidden to look for alternate suppliers under the current rules, so Ducati has no option but change the entire bike to adjust to these control tires.

J4rn0 said:

What's wrong is that Bridgestone and Ducati are now almost incompatible (unless it rains, when they seem made for each other). The miracle man who was able to make them work together is gone, and anyway even for him it was an increasingly uphill task -- every year it gets worse. It is forbidden to look for alternate suppliers under the current rules, so Ducati has no option but change the entire bike to adjust to these control tires.

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Oh yeah... that's it!

Keshav said:

Oh yeah... that's it!

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Hehe - When do you think they will admit Ducati are moving heaven & earth for #46?

Perhaps when hell freezes over?

J4rn0 said:

What's wrong is that Bridgestone and Ducati are now almost incompatible (unless it rains, when they seem made for each other). The miracle man who was able to make them work together is gone, and anyway even for him it was an increasingly uphill task -- every year it gets worse. It is forbidden to look for alternate suppliers under the current rules, so Ducati has no option but change the entire bike to adjust to these control tires.

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It rained fairly heavily at Silverstone, and that didn't help them either. The Bridgestone theory is certainly plausible as many others including Yamaha with Jorge were way off the pace at Le Mans and then they reverted to a chassis that suited the old tyres last year, which as we know haven't changed and are probably from the same stockpile of rubber that were run out last year.......



Ducati have attempted to revise their chassis now three times since last year, and seem to be getting worse with every revision. Thus VR wanting to revert to the GP11 to compare. I don't think anyone would argue that Ducati would be in a much more competitive position with their current talent if we had a tyre war......Bridestone is doing a .... job, Dorna knows it and are trying to assist their PR efforts with ....... Bridgestone Press releases every round.......which say nothing other than....... yes we bought our same old tyres again......



As for the season comparisons, notably Assen last season, the overall race pace was over 30 seconds quicker last year. The truth lies in Nickys statements, Rossi was nearly crashing every corner trying to save the front, only to finish 30 seconds off the pace at Laguna.......the team has tried every single trick in the book and a few new ones to make it competitive and its not happening. Rossi should well consider a Japanese switch new season as with Bridgestone still supplying rubber nothing is going to change next year either. The WSBK performance at Silverstone is probably much more indicative of the weather, however the aging 1198 shouldn't be anywhere near the GP11, rubber is playing a big part and Pirelli are doing a much better job, Bernie E agrees.........and that says something.