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This is where Dorna needs to play a role by leveling the playing field (with spec tyres & electronics, among other things) as best as possible and thus far they've done a fairly decent job. Ducati & Suzuki are fielding bikes that can podium on most tracks. Aprilia has improved a great deal. With Red Bull backing and an experienced team, KTM's long term prospects are fairly strong.

Genuine question .......... why has levelling of the playing field only become an issue in the last few years?

Why did DORNA not have any such concerns in the early 2000's?



Do spec tyres not reduce costs to the teams? Do reduced costs not help satellites (relative to the factories)? Does stopping tyre suppliers directed by HRC/YRT not help the smaller manufacturers?

Of course they do reduce costs when that team is not paying for the tyres as has been stated a few times (it has been said that Michelin pay DORNA to provide tyres).

Point is that if one can negotiate a contract that saves them money, then one should be open to negotiate that contract shouldn't they?

The satellite teams are not in the sport to make money, they are their for exposure for the sponsoring businesses primarily with development of riders secondary, or essentially they use the sport to get money for their business, not use the sport to make money for the team.

Thus, if Dunlop were to approach Tech3, offering to develop tyres to the requirements of their bikes and their riders, at no cost to the Tech3 budget provided that DUNLOP appear in a specific font and is included in all merchandising as well as media releases, then I am sure that Poncharal (who you seem concerned with) would consider. Plus of course, should Poncharal wish to remain with Michelin he is now in an improved negotiating point based on another offer so he could readily then say to Michelin to lower costs or give their product for free and so forth.

Your concern for Tech3 and others is admirable but IMO it is misplaced as these are teams who have cut riders with no thought of loyalty and so no doubt, should someone come knocking with an offer they will listen.

Essentially, more manufacturers (tyres) means more competition thus the 'lower rung' teams now may well find themselves in demand and thus be in a more powerful position to bargain for a result that benefits them, not be limited in their aims and goals by accepting something not at all designed for them
 
Constructor/rider championships may not be viable but 'winning here and there' is still important for the series. Gives us better races and gives younger riders who couldn't find an open factory seat, better tools to prove their worth.

Suzuki has proven it can be done with Vinales winning by nearly 4 seconds at Silverstone. No one knows how Lorenzo will do at Ducati but IMO had he been on the GSX-RR today, he could have been fighting for a win at at least six venues and been a podium contender at many others. With Michelin rolling out its new fronts with better edge grip, and a little good weather, it could have gotten really interesting. Dovizioso will be a contender at Qatar & Austria and whichever track it rains at. Meanwhile, if Suzuki can win, Aprilia & KTM can hope.

Among the satellites, the Marc VDS squad is getting factory-spec bikes this year like LCR, and the Tech 3 squad will also reportedly be getting factory spec M1s next season. If costs can be controlled, the satellites will have more resources allowing for better competitiveness. Given their relatively meagre resources, the inflationary effect of a tyre war will hit them the worst.

Point being, even if there aren't 9 different winners this season, the series is genuinely more competitive today than it has been in a long long time. Perhaps ever.

The worst thing that can happen to it is giving Honda or Yamaha the opportunity to widen the gap between them and the field. And a tyre war will lead to exactly that.

The odds are already stacked in their favour, hardly makes sense to stack them higher still, by allowing them directive control on tyre development. And with the suppliers primarily interested scoring more wins & podiums than their opponent, that's exactly what will happen. The strongest riders on the best bikes will get a disproportionate say.

You make a rather larger, and unfounded assumption that the satellite bikes are truly receiving factory spec bikes. After all, what qualifies as a 'factory spec' bike anyhow? Given the voluminous changes a works bike sees over the course of a grand prix season, whatever shows up at Losail is not a static product. Spec ECU doesn't mean you get the same engine mapping that the bikes Marquez and Pedrosa are using. Nor do you even have access to the same one-off custom parts the factories are manufacturing for their works entries. When Honda and Yamaha are having their engineers design parts for the individual riders and having them overnighted from Japan to the races, that's well beyond factory spec as far as I'm concerned.

Factory spec has long been a catch-all phrase that sounds good, but tends to leave out a number of key aspects that make the works bikes infinitely more desirable. The manufacturers will NEVER give identical support to their customer teams, and that's the way it's been for a long time now. They will advise, but the embedded factory rep is not going to give away all the secrets now. Over in F1 land, they make a big show out of Mercedes supplying Williams and Force India with "identical engines" so the fans all think things are being done on the up-and-up. But most of the fans don't seem to realize identical engines are pretty much worthless without identical engine mapping, which most assuredly does not occur because no factory is going to hand over whatever advantage they have to customer teams.
 
Constructor/rider championships may not be viable but 'winning here and there' is still important for the series. Gives us better races and gives younger riders who couldn't find an open factory seat, better tools to prove their worth.

Suzuki has proven it can be done with Vinales winning by nearly 4 seconds at Silverstone. No one knows how Lorenzo will do at Ducati but IMO had he been on the GSX-RR today, he could have been fighting for a win at at least six venues and been a podium contender at many others. With Michelin rolling out its new fronts with better edge grip, and a little good weather, it could have gotten really interesting. Dovizioso will be a contender at Qatar & Austria and whichever track it rains at. Meanwhile, if Suzuki can win, Aprilia & KTM can hope.

Among the satellites, the Marc VDS squad is getting factory-spec bikes this year like LCR, and the Tech 3 squad will also reportedly be getting factory spec M1s next season. If costs can be controlled, the satellites will have more resources allowing for better competitiveness. Given their relatively meagre resources, the inflationary effect of a tyre war will hit them the worst.

Point being, even if there aren't 9 different winners this season, the series is genuinely more competitive today than it has been in a long long time. Perhaps ever.

The worst thing that can happen to it is giving Honda or Yamaha the opportunity to widen the gap between them and the field. And a tyre war will lead to exactly that.

The odds are already stacked in their favour, hardly makes sense to stack them higher still, by allowing them directive control on tyre development. And with the suppliers primarily interested scoring more wins & podiums than their opponent, that's exactly what will happen. The strongest riders on the best bikes will get a disproportionate say.

You continually evade acknowledgement of the basic common sense logic that tells us that having a variety of choices - would necessarily limit the influence of the top riders - because said influence would be limited to the brand they choose. If Yamaha is on Bridgestone and Hondas on Michelin - lesser riders choosing to go with Dunlop or Pirelli would not be affected by what the Big Two are doing on the other brands.

Brands not tied to the influence of the other two - would be free to develop tires suited to the satellite teams. Dunlop and Pirelli may not have the same financial clout as the other two - but the creative thinking that spawns development of better tires isn't always the product of how much money is spent. Suzuki is a proof positive.

Moreover - with multiple marques making tires - Dorna's meddling influence would be much decreased, which pretty much everyone can agree - would be a positive turn of events.

Lastly - when you speak of the current relative parity seen in this last season - you IMO - give way too much credit to the tires - and ignore the impact of the spec ECU and the fact that while there are many breakthroughs in terms of chassis and suspension refinements - MotoGP bikes are largely speaking - very close to the limits of performance as tracks everywhere financially exhausted from required changes in terms of run-off and engines that are already producing power that exceeds tires grip capacity and basic laws of physics. Look at how WSBK laptimes have closed the gap. The bigger companies are creating zillion dollar clutches and other refinements - but overall - speed itself can only go so far. The smaller teams are gradually catching up. Across the board parity won't happen overnight - but I think - we're approaching it.
 
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Lastly - when you speak of the current relative parity seen in this last season - you IMO - give way too much credit to the tires - and ignore the impact of the spec ECU and the fact that while there are many breakthroughs in terms of chassis and suspension refinements - MotoGP bikes are largely speaking - very close to the limits of performance as tracks everywhere financially exhausted from required changes in terms of run-off and engines that are already producing power that exceeds tires grip capacity and basic laws of physics. Look at how WSBK laptimes have closed the gap. The bigger companies are creating zillion dollar clutches and other refinements - but overall - speed itself can only go so far. The smaller teams are gradually catching up. Across the board parity won't happen overnight - but I think - we're approaching it.

Another reason is 2016 was the first since 2011 when the grid contained only prototype bikes.
 
You continually evade acknowledgement of the basic common sense logic that tells us that having a variety of choices - would necessarily limit the influence of the top riders - because said influence would be limited to the brand they choose. If Yamaha is on Bridgestone and Hondas on Michelin - lesser riders choosing to go with Dunlop or Pirelli would not be affected by what the Big Two are doing on the other brands.

Brands not tied to the influence of the other two - would be free to develop tires suited to the satellite teams. Dunlop and Pirelli may not have the same financial clout as the other two - but the creative thinking that spawns development of better tires isn't always the product of how much money is spent. Suzuki is a proof positive.

Moreover - with multiple marques making tires - Dorna's meddling influence would be much decreased, which pretty much everyone can agree - would be a positive turn of events.

Lastly - when you speak of the current relative parity seen in this last season - you IMO - give way too much credit to the tires - and ignore the impact of the spec ECU and the fact that while there are many breakthroughs in terms of chassis and suspension refinements - MotoGP bikes are largely speaking - very close to the limits of performance as tracks everywhere financially exhausted from required changes in terms of run-off and engines that are already producing power that exceeds tires grip capacity and basic laws of physics. Look at how WSBK laptimes have closed the gap. The bigger companies are creating zillion dollar clutches and other refinements - but overall - speed itself can only go so far. The smaller teams are gradually catching up. Across the board parity won't happen overnight - but I think - we're approaching it.

You hit on an interesting point regarding the performance gap being closed. I think the closer we get to some sort of true parity, the more likely we will see an engine formula change because the sport does need to have the reset button hit every so often. I don't think the 500cc formula would have lasted as long as it did if it came about in the past 10 years. We'll probably see a return to smaller displacement engines eventually. Current agreement between Dorna and IRTA runs through 2021. I don't see the current 1000cc formula lasting past 2021. Wouldn't be terribly surprised if within the next 3 years at most, we start hearing rumblings of the engines being downsized. Mind you I don't see them going back to the 800cc formula, but my guess is we will see a return to the 500cc engine displacement...only question being if it is 4-stroke or 2-stroke. The former being more likely of the two unless they want to see if they can do a clean 2-stroke engine.
 
You hit on an interesting point regarding the performance gap being closed. I think the closer we get to some sort of true parity, the more likely we will see an engine formula change because the sport does need to have the reset button hit every so often. I don't think the 500cc formula would have lasted as long as it did if it came about in the past 10 years. We'll probably see a return to smaller displacement engines eventually. Current agreement between Dorna and IRTA runs through 2021. I don't see the current 1000cc formula lasting past 2021. Wouldn't be terribly surprised if within the next 3 years at most, we start hearing rumblings of the engines being downsized. Mind you I don't see them going back to the 800cc formula, but my guess is we will see a return to the 500cc engine displacement...only question being if it is 4-stroke or 2-stroke. The former being more likely of the two unless they want to see if they can do a clean 2-stroke engine.

With turbocharged, supercharged and electric bikes being developed for the consumer market I wouldnt be surprised if DORNA's clamp down on the electronics is their first step to controlling the introduction of reduced capacity engines supplemented by KERS type systems like in F1. With battery technology rapidly improving it wont be long before an electric motorcycle can last race distance, weigh the same as the current GP bikes and offer similar if not better performance.

Even using a supercharger like the H2 Kawasaki but mounted to a smaller capacity combustion engine would be capable of delivering the same power but with less mass.
 
Genuine question .......... why has levelling of the playing field only become an issue in the last few years?

Why did DORNA not have any such concerns in the early 2000's?
Maybe mismanagement. Perhaps complacency. Possibly both. Rossi was young & popular. On track, he could be relied upon to run relatively interesting races (not too many runaway victories). Off track/post-race his antics & feuds helped build up a following. As long as audiences were growing (particularly in the emerging Asian markets), I don't think Dorna were too eager to rock the boat.

Today, Rossi's become older, wearier and less demonstrative. Meanwhile his peers, while outstanding professionals, are generally sober, cautious and not very (for lack of a better word) spontaneous, despite their (relative) youth. The off-track drama still helps sell the event but Dorna needs more exciting races if its to continue growing especially as the Rossi-era comes to a close.

At least that's my opinion/assessment. I've watched recordings of older seasons and maybe its the video quality or lack of proper appreciation for 2-strokes on my part but I think future generations will look back at 2015 & 2016 as the most memorable seasons. Which bodes well for 2017 and the current direction of the sport.

Of course they do reduce costs when that team is not paying for the tyres as has been stated a few times (it has been said that Michelin pay DORNA to provide tyres).

Point is that if one can negotiate a contract that saves them money, then one should be open to negotiate that contract shouldn't they?

The satellite teams are not in the sport to make money, they are their for exposure for the sponsoring businesses primarily with development of riders secondary, or essentially they use the sport to get money for their business, not use the sport to make money for the team.
I don't think I entirely understood that. The way I see it, the teams (mostly founded by ex-racers or racing enthusiasts) are there because they love the sport... and it pays the bills. The sponsors are in it purely for the exposure - advertising & publicity.

For the teams, its a constant struggle to remain adequately funded and therefore competitive. From what I can tell, nobody's making any real money from the sport (aside from the top riders). Which is what landed Karel Abraham on an Aspar Ducati. And if a team does run the occasional significant revenue surplus, its probably reinvested for next year.

Thus, if Dunlop were to approach Tech3, offering to develop tyres to the requirements of their bikes and their riders, at no cost to the Tech3 budget provided that DUNLOP appear in a specific font and is included in all merchandising as well as media releases, then I am sure that Poncharal (who you seem concerned with) would consider. Plus of course, should Poncharal wish to remain with Michelin he is now in an improved negotiating point based on another offer so he could readily then say to Michelin to lower costs or give their product for free and so forth.
If Dunlop can provide Tech 3 with free tyres that allow its M1s to be equally competitive on - nothing like it. No reason to even consider shifting to Michelins IMO.

But we've been here before, haven't we? Tech 3 ran Dunlops for two years as did Pramac. Between the two, Dunlops accounted for 4 of the last 5 places in the 2006 rider standings.

This plan hinges on Dunlop being willing and able to invest significant resources in a venture that, if successful would see them finish behind Michelin/Bridgestone and if unsuccessful, might result in Dunlop-branded bikes struggling to stay in the points. Sure the possibility of achieving a huge technical breakthrough on a lower budget is not inconceivable but its also not likely.

Now if you're in Poncharal's shoes and you've got the top non-factory team running ex-YRT M1s that were designed for Michelin/Bridgestone, would you risk that for a gamble on Dunlops? Would your riders want that? And even if you do take that gamble - Dunlop Tech 3 makes one team, still leaves 7 others (not including HRT & YRT).

Alternatively, you could stick with the tyre recommended by Yamaha for reliably strong results. But since that tyre supplier takes its cues from the factory team, the gulf between their riders & yours would increase.

Its the same for the other teams as well, all of whom would want to take upstage Tech 3, register some notable performances, and perhaps even score a podium if the stars align.
 
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I am a patient and practised man when it comes to denialists having debated Rossi fans for 10 years now on MotoGP fora. Merely obstinately repeating your arguments after their logical flaws have been repeatedly pointed out to you lends them no more force.
I've spelled out my reasoning, to whit, lowering of costs via spec tyres disproportionately benefits teams with smaller budgets. It also significantly reduces the incentive for the tyre supplier to favour top riders - the pole setter will wear a Michelin cap and the winner will pose with the Michelin Man, regardless of which team they're with. All bikes on the grid wear a Michelin logo.

If that logic is not acceptable to you, that's okay. We can agree to disagree.

That isn't the point however, which was that 2 competitive suppliers is quite sufficient for a tyre war, and that last time there was a tyre war it eventually worked against HRC and the Factory Yamaha team, and one Valentino Rossi in particular which is fairly obviously your main problem
No offense but I think the Rossi factor may be your main problem. I haven't mentioned him in my argument aside from clubbing him with other elite riders.

He had influence with Michelin in 2007, had influence with Bridgestone/Michelin in 2008 and had influence with Bridgestone in 2009. I don't see him as a variable as far as the spec tyre argument is concerned.

Rossi will be gone in two or three seasons. The spec tyre, in contrast, looks like its here to stay. Like HRC & YRT's outsized financial clout.
 
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Maybe mismanagement. Perhaps complacency. Rossi was young & popular. On track, he could be relied upon to run relatively interesting races (not too many runaway victories). Off track/post-race his antics helped build up a following. As long as audiences were growing (particularly in the emerging Asian markets), I don't think Dorna were too eager to rock the boat.

Hallelujah, its taken us 31 pages but we finally got there. The Golden Goose. The primary reason for the spec tire. Only its not really spec. They change it from time to time, when it suits them, to rock the boat.

They certainly did appear eager to rock Stoner's boat. I think 2012 gives you all the information you need to understand the motive of the spec tire. You have laid it out now, plain and simple. Att it was in fact a brilliant idea to have an open transparent tire vote. Those same poor satellite teams, for the first and last time, got a vote of equal ranking as the big 2 in tires.

Now consider just for a second what happened to Honda. It was not a lower quality tire they introduced. For most riders and bikes it was hailed as an improvement. It just happened to not suit the Honda the way it had been developed. It took the mighty Honda the better part of a season with new frames and swingarms to finally figure out the solution was but a lowly $2 spacer.

The harder spec tire which worked on the Honda was not more expensive for Bridgestone to produce. It did not escalate costs to satellite teams. It was simply a different spec. What costs less. A different spec tire, or 6 months development of new designed frames, swingarms, electronics?
 
You make a rather larger, and unfounded assumption that the satellite bikes are truly receiving factory spec bikes. After all, what qualifies as a 'factory spec' bike anyhow?
Same engine & same (or similar) chassis as the factory bikes. Can't fight for the championship on that but LCR last season proved that its possible to win races and score podiums on it.

If the Marc VDS boys will receive the same tool as Crutchlow (as is reported), I'm excited about it, even though I know Miller isn't going to outperform Pedrosa over the course of the season.
 
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I've spelled out my reasoning, to whit, lowering of costs via spec tyres disproportionately benefit teams with smaller budgets. It also reduces the incentive for tyre supplier to favour top riders - the pole setter will wear a Michelin cap and the winner will pose with the Michelin man, regardless of which team they're with.

If that logic is not acceptable to you, that's okay. We can agree to disagree.


No offense but I think the Rossi factor may be your main problem. I haven't mentioned him in my argument aside from clubbing him with other elite riders.

He had influence with Michelin in 2007, had influence with Bridgestone/Michelin in 2008 and had influence with Bridgestone in 2009. I don't see him as a variable as far as the spec tyre argument is concerned.

Rossi will be gone in two or three seasons. The spec tyre, in contrast, looks like its here to stay. Like HRC & YRT's outsized financial clout.
I definitely have a problem with Rossi, but not with any of his titles being undeserved, but rather (among other things) with his celebrity and "bigger than the sport" status warping the sport, as it did with the late season 2015 events and the attitude of his considerable fandom to MM and Lorenzo subsequently, and as it did imo and in the opinion of many others with the advent of the control tyre and the events in regard to tyres leading up to it. Most of your posts since you came on here have on the other hand been arguments against Rossi having any undue influence or against anything reflecting at all badly on him, cf a recent previous discussion we had concerning his fans booing MM and JL on the podium and cheering crashes, so I don't believe I am necessarily any more Rossi-centric or biased in regard to him than you are. I actually don't consider Rossi to be the equivalent of Adolf Hitler, so bringing him into a debate concerning events in which he was not very arguably pivotal hardly constitutes a breach of Godwin's law.

I don't accept your logic because of logical flaws I have continually pointed out and which you continue to fail to address, and in particular your claim that an inference you have drawn is sufficient in itself to clinch your argument is both post hoc (and it would seem in regard to events you did not even observe contemporaneously), and pretty much meets the textbook definition of a syllogism, akin to me arguing that it is greatly to Dorna's financial benefit for Rossi to succeed therefore all their actions are aimed at helping Rossi.

In the real world you don't and probably can't present any evidence that the satellite teams wanted a control tyre or regarded the control tyre as to or for their benefit; which particular satellite teams was it aimed at btw?.
You also continue to bring up the red herring of there not being a 3rd competitive tyre supplier, and continue to argue that the control tyre was for the benefit of teams other than HRC and the Yamaha factory teams when the tyre war that did actually exist had a significant role in producing the only title win other than by a factory Honda or Yamaha rider in the last 15 seasons, and in the face of many of the other teams choosing an alternative supplier to the manufacturer supplying the Honda and Yamaha factory teams when a choice did exist, as well as Ducati being prepared to start again with a new supplier rather than go to a control tyre.
 
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Most of your posts since you came on here have on the other hand been arguments against Rossi having any undue influence or against anything reflecting at all badly on him, cf a recent previous discussion we had concerning his fans booing MM and JL on the podium and cheering crashes, so I don't believe I am necessarily any more Rossi-centric or biased in regard to him than you are. I actually don't consider Rossi to be the equivalent of Adolf Hitler, so bringing him into a debate concerning events in which he was not very arguably pivotal hardly constitutes a breach of Godwin's law.
Problems with Rossi are not germane to the current discussion about tyre regulation. This isn't about his racing, celebrity, fans, or whatever.

More importantly, my posts on the topic had little to do with Rossi which makes this - "Valentino Rossi in particular which is fairly obviously your main problem" - a red herring.

I don't accept your logic because of logical flaws I have continually pointed out and which you continue to fail to address, and in particular your claim that an inference you have drawn is sufficient in itself to clinch your argument is both post hoc (and it would seem in regard to events you did not even observe contemporaneously), and pretty much meets the textbook definition of a syllogism, akin to me arguing that it is greatly to Dorna's financial benefit for Rossi to succeed therefore all their actions are aimed at helping Rossi.

In the real world you don't and probably can't present any evidence that the satellite teams wanted a control tyre or regarded the control tyre as to or for their benefit;
Can you present any evidence of Pirelli and/or Dunlop expressing any interest in participating in a MotoGP tyre war against the incumbents?

which particular satellite teams was it aimed at btw?.
The ones that can't consistently fight for the podium and would get a proportionate amount of say with a tyre supplier that's only focused on its fight with its rival for top honours.

So.. all of them. In particular, the ones that not too long ago were reduced to running grid-filler CRTs and getting lapped by the factory bikes.
 
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Same engine & same (or similar) chassis as the factory bikes. Can't fight for the championship on that but LCR last season proved that its possible to win races and score podiums on it.

If the Marc VDS boys will receive the same tool as Crutchlow (as is reported), I'm exciting about it even though I know Miller isn't going to outperform Pedrosa over the course of the season.

Same engine is irrelevant if you don't have the best possible software for said engine. Customer teams are not getting HRC's engine maps.
 
Problems with Rossi are not germane to the current discussion about tyre regulation. This isn't about his racing, celebrity, fans, or whatever.

More importantly, my posts on the topic had little to do with Rossi which makes this - "Valentino Rossi in particular which is fairly obviously your main problem" - a red herring.


Can you present any evidence of Pirelli and/or Dunlop expressing any interest in participating in a MotoGP tyre war against the incumbents?


The ones that can't consistently fight for the podium and would get a proportionate amount of say with a tyre supplier that's only focused on its fight with its rival for top honours.

So.. all of them. In particular, the ones that not too long ago were reduced to running grid-filler CRTs and getting lapped by the factory bikes.
Actually Bridgestone as I recall provided tyres free, and Michelin I believe did to their main teams, certainly to HRC and the Yamaha factory team. Herve was sponsored by Dunlop until the end of 2007 when all this got underway hence tyre costs were I doubt a consideration for him, and in 2008 he was transitioning to being a feeder team for the Yamaha factory, with Toseland signed directly to Yamaha and Edwards quite likely intended to be a tyre mule for Rossi as he was by his own account when on the factory team. The control tyre didn't save JIR Scott Honda or Nakano's single rider Konica Minolta Honda team, which leaves LCR, reputedly in the premier class for the first time in 2006 under Dorna's aegis and subsidised by them, and as I have said I am quite willing to believe the control tyre reduced theirs and hence Dorna's costs, but reducing costs for a team Dorna essentially put there hardly provides sufficient justification for changing the whole tyre situation back then, which is what is being argued about, including by you when it suits you.

There were multiple threads involving hundreds of pages concerning this matter including contributions from still current posters, and Valentino Rossi was of primary relevance to it all back then by any definition. I was actually one of the few non-Rossi fans who had no problem with him switching to Bridgestones, but was opposed to a control tyre for the same obvious reasons Ducati were which proved to be correct, as well as philosophically. My philosophical objections are moot now since eggs can't be unscrambled and for the reasons Birdman gives, ie the bikes are already too fast, but your post hoc argument 10 years later that it was done primarily to help the satellite teams is disingenuous, and you continue to provide no evidence for your case other than an assertion that you can draw an inference that it may have reduced costs for satellite teams and hence made them more competitive. It did the former even theoretically for few of them as above, and two of those teams no longer exist anyway, and did the latter for pretty much no team in terms of being more competitive against the Honda and Yamaha factory teams, while drastically reducing the competiveness of numerous teams including all those using bikes manufactured by 3 different marques as I have detailed, which you haven't and can't fit into your scheme of things and continue to ignore.

You again mention Dunlop and Pirelli. Once more, why are they relevant if Bridgestone and Michelin were both already there and wished to continue a tyre war?

It also remains to be seen whether last season reflects any change in the status quo. I am hopeful the control ECU will have a continuing effect, but you point to that season as evidence that a control tyre equalises competition while dismissing 2007 as an aberration in terms of what happened without a control tyre. I personally think the control ECU , a number of wet races, and capricious tyre failures And the consequent tyre lottery had more to do with satellite teams getting better results than the control tyre per se.
 
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Problems with Rossi are not germane to the current discussion about tyre regulation. This isn't about his racing, celebrity, fans, or whatever.

More importantly, my posts on the topic had little to do with Rossi which makes this - "Valentino Rossi in particular which is fairly obviously your main problem" - a red herring.


Can you present any evidence of Pirelli and/or Dunlop expressing any interest in participating in a MotoGP tyre war against the incumbents?


The ones that can't consistently fight for the podium and would get a proportionate amount of say with a tyre supplier that's only focused on its fight with its rival for top honours.

So.. all of them. In particular, the ones that not too long ago were reduced to running grid-filler CRTs and getting lapped by the factory bikes.

Actually Bridgestone as I recall provided tyres free, and Michelin I believe did to their main teams, certainly to HRC and the Yamaha factory team. Herve was sponsored by Dunlop until the end of 2007 when all this got underway hence tyre costs were I doubt a consideration for him, and in 2008 he was transitioning to being a feeder team for the Yamaha factory, with Toseland signed directly to Yamaha and Edwards quite likely intended to be a tyre mule for Rossi as he was by his own account when on the factory team. The control tyre didn't save JIR Scott Honda or Nakano's single rider Konica Minolta Honda team, which leaves LCR, reputedly in the premier class for the first time in 2006 under Dorna's aegis and subsidised by them, and as I have said I am quite willing to believe the control tyre reduced theirs and hence Dorna's costs, but reducing costs for a team Dorna essentially put there (they didn't get very good value if they were paying for LCR's tyres in 2006) hardly provides sufficient justification for changing the whole tyre situation back then, which is what is being argued about including by you when it suits you.

There were multiple threads involving hundreds of pages including contributions from still current posters, and Valentino Rossi was of primary relevance to it all by any definition. I was actually one of the few non-Rossi fans who had no problem with him switching to Bridgestones, but was opposed to a control tyre for the same obvious reasons Ducati were, which proved to be correct, as well as philosophically. My philosophical objections are moot now since eggs can't be unscrambled and for the reasons Birdman gives, ie the bikes are already too fast, but your post hoc argument 10 years later that it was done primarily to help the satellite teams is disengenuous and you continue to provide no evidence for it other than your inference that it may have reduced costs for satellite teams/made them more competitive against Honda and Yamaha. It did the former even theoretically for few of them as above, and two of those teams no longer exist anyway, and did the latter for pretty much no team in terms of being more competitive against the Honda and Yamaha factory teams, while drastically reducing the competiveness of many including all bikes manufactured by 3 different marques as I have detailed which you haven't and can't fit into your scheme of things and continue to ignore.

You again mention Dunlop and Pirelli. Once more, why are they relevant if Bridgestone and Michelin were both already there and wished to continue a tyre war?
 
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Maybe mismanagement. Perhaps complacency. Possibly both. Rossi was young & popular. On track, he could be relied upon to run relatively interesting races (not too many runaway victories). Off track/post-race his antics & feuds helped build up a following. As long as audiences were growing (particularly in the emerging Asian markets), I don't think Dorna were too eager to rock the boat.

Today, Rossi's become older, wearier and less demonstrative. Meanwhile his peers, while outstanding professionals, are generally sober, cautious and not very (for lack of a better word) spontaneous, despite their (relative) youth. The off-track drama still helps sell the event but Dorna needs more exciting races if its to continue growing especially as the Rossi-era comes to a close.

At least that's my opinion/assessment. I've watched recordings of older seasons and maybe its the video quality or lack of proper appreciation for 2-strokes on my part but I think future generations will look back at 2015 & 2016 as the most memorable seasons. Which bodes well for 2017 and the current direction of the sport.

For mine, 2015/2016 were nothing special in terms of the way the seasons panned out, albeit I accept that 2016 did have a number of races where the applecart was upended and we got 'unexpected' results, but as has already been mentioned by others, those unexpected results are easily explained by circumstance. Only a continuation of 2016 in terms of race winners etc will show that 2016 was not an anomoly but personally, I suspect that we had an anomoly borne of circumstance rather than the start of a new competitive trend or era.

As for the 2 stroke era, I am biased to it and would say that people who have only recently started to watch the series (recently being sometime during the 4 stroke era), while great to have as fans of the sport may well be unable to appreciate the nuances of racing the 2 strokes and why many people will attest that it was a better era as the bikes could be purchased and one was not beholden to a single spec supplier (that old chestnut again)

As for my opinion of why only now do DORNA care, I differ slightly although agree that the reason has a name.

Point is, DORNA are now trying to manufacture something that they can then market as they have realised that the goose has limited time and in doing so they are not concerned at all about satellite teams, but on building a product that they can market and sell (yes, sell) based on an artificial competitiveness. IMO only here but DORNA will be looking at selling the sport/series sometime around when the goose ceases involvement as they will know that the bottom line will be impacted, thus make it seem not so centric today, make it seem competitive and then sell at a profit leaving the real issue or sports development and growth to the next suckers (call me a cynic).




I don't think I entirely understood that. The way I see it, the teams (mostly founded by ex-racers or racing enthusiasts) are there because they love the sport... and it pays the bills. The sponsors are in it purely for the exposure - advertising & publicity.

For the teams, its a constant struggle to remain adequately funded and therefore competitive. From what I can tell, nobody's making any real money from the sport (aside from the top riders). Which is what landed Karel Abraham on an Aspar Ducati. And if a team does run the occasional significant revenue surplus, its probably reinvested for next year.

Is simple.

Tech3 are not involved to turn a profit for Tech3 as no body involved in this sport (aside from some riders) will make money.

Tech3 (and I use them as the example as it could be MarcVDS or any other) are involved to raise awareness of and for their sponsoring businesses and thus have these business then spend more money with the team and so forth, a circle if you will.

If having a single tyre supply is so conducive to lowering costs for the teams, one could well ask why more riders are not paid as opposed to paying riders could one not?

Your answer (reasonably) would be that the fact supports your point of the need to lower costs (ie. spec tyre), but it could also point that perhaps the team is having to spend more money on the bike due to that same spec item that is supposed to reduce costs, so the circle continues.




If Dunlop can provide Tech 3 with free tyres that allow its M1s to be equally competitive on - nothing like it. No reason to even consider shifting to Michelins IMO.

But we've been here before, haven't we? Tech 3 ran Dunlops for two years as did Pramac. Between the two, Dunlops accounted for 4 of the last 5 places in the 2006 rider standings.

Yep, we have been there and by all means correct me, but did not one of these minnow teams work with a tyre manufacturer and win something?

A world title perhaps?

And was it not this result that spurred Rossi to demand the tyre change (no problems there, he was off contract) which has subsquently led to today's situation which (IMO) feel would not have happened were Ducati not successful in 2007.


This plan hinges on Dunlop being willing and able to invest significant resources in a venture that, if successful would see them finish behind Michelin/Bridgestone and if unsuccessful, might result in Dunlop-branded bikes struggling to stay in the points. Sure the possibility of achieving a huge technical breakthrough on a lower budget is not inconceivable but its also not likely.

Now if you're in Poncharal's shoes and you've got the top non-factory team running ex-YRT M1s that were designed for Michelin/Bridgestone, would you risk that for a gamble on Dunlops? Would your riders want that? And even if you do take that gamble - Dunlop Tech 3 makes one team, still leaves 7 others (not including HRT & YRT).

Alternatively, you could stick with the tyre recommended by Yamaha for reliably strong results. But since that tyre supplier takes its cues from the factory team, the gulf between their riders & yours would increase.

Its the same for the other teams as well, all of whom would want to take upstage Tech 3, register some notable performances, and perhaps even score a podium if the stars align.

The attitude of Poncharal (who you seem to focus on ............. do you have a vested interest may I ask) is one for Poncharal as in your example, on one hand he has access to factory Yamaha equipment that is setup for a specific tyre combination so he knows he (should) have a win capable machine, but on another hand, the bikes are a year old and may not come with all the bells and whistles that they had the prior year. So, does he 'sit tight' and trust that the bike will work and that his team is capable of getting it to work (are his mechanics/engineers up to the task and equally trained as the factory techs, does he have access to the prior year data which may or may not work for his riders, will the bike still work with the ongoing spec tyre changes). Or does he go, yep, give me the bikes but as I am a 'standalone and unsupported team' I may just shop around to see what options are available, perhaps different suspension and brake packages, or maybe even tyres.

How he would do business is his call remembering that a change of tyre or suspension suppliers may bring an initial dollars due to associated ccompanies (may not happen as well I must say), but the question could well be whether he wants to settle and follow, or try to become a front runner and lead which means that sometimes one needs to look outside of the box in which the toy came.

I have no doubt at all that there would be teams in the field today who would drop Michelin like a hot potato if they were allowed to work with a supplier who wants to work with them to provide a product specifically designed around that teams needs (tyres/suspension). Now, I could not know which teams would and which teams would not take the offer, but there would be at least one and likely more as experience shows that sometimes looking outside the box gives a good view.
 
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Actually Bridgestone as I recall provided tyres free, and Michelin I believe did to their main teams, certainly to HRC and the Yamaha factory team.
Okay. But dropping the exclusive contract with a tyre manufacturer would mean that Dorna would have to forgo at least €25-30 mil per season.

Now Dorna pays out €2.4 mil per grid slot to the satellites which for 11 riders is a litte over €26 mil.

If it passes on the revenue loss to the teams, each satellite would lose almost the entire subsidy they receive and they'd be left with a budget shortfall of a whopping 60%! Even if Dorna is absorbs some of that.. maybe auctions off some of the freed up ad space, that still leaves the satellites with a huge hole in their finances.

Would Michelin or Bridgestone be willing to make up that deficit in return for whatever advertising space the teams can spare? I strongly doubt it.

You again mention Dunlop and Pirelli. Once more, why are they relevant if Bridgestone and Michelin were both already there and wished to continue a tyre war?
Because Bridgestone & Michelin are only interested in riders that can make it to parc ferme on a regular basis to be photographed with their tyre logo. That makes it harder still for the smaller manufacturers & satellites.

It also remains to be seen whether last season reflects any change in the status quo. I am hopeful the control ECU will have a continuing effect, but you point to that season as evidence that a control tyre equalises competition while dismissing 2007 as an aberration in terms of what happened without a control tyre. I personally think the control ECU , a number of wet races, and capricious tyre failures And the consequent tyre lottery had more to do with satellite teams getting better results than the control tyre per se.
The spec ECU isn't evolving from year to year. In 2007 Bridgestone were working primarily for Ducati. In 2008, they had to start working with Yamaha & Honda as well that they stopped designing to Ducati's requirements.

Ducati ended up retained its tyre advantage for a just one season plus/minus before the playing field was leveled by the financial clout of the majors.
 
For mine, 2015/2016 were nothing special in terms of the way the seasons panned out, albeit I accept that 2016 did have a number of races where the applecart was upended and we got 'unexpected' results, but as has already been mentioned by others, those unexpected results are easily explained by circumstance. Only a continuation of 2016 in terms of race winners etc will show that 2016 was not an anomoly but personally, I suspect that we had an anomoly borne of circumstance rather than the start of a new competitive trend or era.

As for the 2 stroke era, I am biased to it and would say that people who have only recently started to watch the series (recently being sometime during the 4 stroke era), while great to have as fans of the sport may well be unable to appreciate the nuances of racing the 2 strokes and why many people will attest that it was a better era as the bikes could be purchased and one was not beholden to a single spec supplier (that old chestnut again)

As for my opinion of why only now do DORNA care, I differ slightly although agree that the reason has a name.

Point is, DORNA are now trying to manufacture something that they can then market as they have realised that the goose has limited time and in doing so they are not concerned at all about satellite teams, but on building a product that they can market and sell (yes, sell) based on an artificial competitiveness. IMO only here but DORNA will be looking at selling the sport/series sometime around when the goose ceases involvement as they will know that the bottom line will be impacted, thus make it seem not so centric today, make it seem competitive and then sell at a profit leaving the real issue or sports development and growth to the next suckers (call me a cynic).






Is simple.

Tech3 are not involved to turn a profit for Tech3 as no body involved in this sport (aside from some riders) will make money.

Tech3 (and I use them as the example as it could be MarcVDS or any other) are involved to raise awareness of and for their sponsoring businesses and thus have these business then spend more money with the team and so forth, a circle if you will.

If having a single tyre supply is so conducive to lowering costs for the teams, one could well ask why more riders are not paid as opposed to paying riders could one not?

Your answer (reasonably) would be that the fact supports your point of the need to lower costs (ie. spec tyre), but it could also point that perhaps the team is having to spend more money on the bike due to that same spec item that is supposed to reduce costs, so the circle continues.






Yep, we have been there and by all means correct me, but did not one of these minnow teams work with a tyre manufacturer and win something?

A world title perhaps?

And was it not this result that spurred Rossi to demand the tyre change (no problems there, he was off contract) which has subsquently led to today's situation which (IMO) feel would not have happened were Ducati not successful in 2007.




The attitude of Poncharal (who you seem to focus on ............. do you have a vested interest may I ask) is one for Poncharal as in your example, on one hand he has access to factory Yamaha equipment that is setup for a specific tyre combination so he knows he (should) have a win capable machine, but on another hand, the bikes are a year old and may not come with all the bells and whistles that they had the prior year. So, does he 'sit tight' and trust that the bike will work and that his team is capable of getting it to work (are his mechanics/engineers up to the task and equally trained as the factory techs, does he have access to the prior year data which may or may not work for his riders, will the bike still work with the ongoing spec tyre changes). Or does he go, yep, give me the bikes but as I am a 'standalone and unsupported team' I may just shop around to see what options are available, perhaps different suspension and brake packages, or maybe even tyres.

How he would do business is his call remembering that a change of tyre or suspension suppliers may bring an initial dollars due to associated ccompanies (may not happen as well I must say), but the question could well be whether he wants to settle and follow, or try to become a front runner and lead which means that sometimes one needs to look outside of the box in which the toy came.

I have no doubt at all that there would be teams in the field today who would drop Michelin like a hot potato if they were allowed to work with a supplier who wants to work with them to provide a product specifically designed around that teams needs (tyres/suspension). Now, I could not know which teams would and which teams would not take the offer, but there would be at least one and likely more as experience shows that sometimes looking outside the box gives a good view.
I would attribute last year's results to the control ECU which may well prove to increase competitiveness long term, a number of wet races, HRC stuffing up their bike, and the shoddiness of the tyres from the new control tyre provider creating what was to some extent a tyre lottery, rather than to there being a control tyre per se. JKant however chooses to dismiss 2007 as an aberration in terms of the virtues of a tyre war while holding up a different single season ie 2016 as an exemplar of the virtues of a control tyre.

Of course relatively recent fans are as entitled to an opinion as anyone else to current events and without them the sport would die, and may indeed have a less biased perspective, but to me JKant is no less agenda driven than many of those including me whom he debates, and is not really interested in debating the issue but rather merely repeats his preconceived view despite apparently not being a follower of the sport when the events under discussion occurred while providing no evidence other than an inference he has drawn which it is quite easy to dispute.
 
Okay. But dropping the exclusive contract with a tyre manufacturer would mean that Dorna would have to forgo at least €25-30 mil per season.

Now Dorna pays out €2.4 mil per grid slot to the satellites which for 11 riders is a litte over €26 mil.

If it passes on the revenue loss to the teams, each satellite would lose almost the entire subsidy they receive and they'd be left with a budget shortfall of a whopping 60%! Even if Dorna is absorbs some of that.. maybe auctions off some of the freed up ad space, that still leaves the satellites with a huge hole in their finances.

Would Michelin or Bridgestone be willing to make up that deficit in return for whatever advertising space the teams can spare? I strongly doubt it.


Because Bridgestone & Michelin are only interested in riders that can make it to parc ferme on a regular basis to be photographed with their tyre logo. That makes it harder still for the smaller manufacturers & satellites.


The spec ECU isn't evolving from year to year. In 2007 Bridgestone were working primarily for Ducati. In 2008, they had to start working with Yamaha & Honda as well that they stopped designing to Ducati's requirements.

Ducati ended up retained its tyre advantage for a just one season plus/minus before the playing field was leveled by the financial clout of the majors.

You have made one point on which we can agree to disagree. If you would rather see satellite teams utilising Hondas and Yamahas finish in higher midfield positions behind the factory bikes as opposed to manufacturers other than Honda and Yamaha having a better chance, including a chance of winning the whole thing (a better than 20 percent chance, 3 out of 14 in the last 14 years prior to the control tyre if you want to attribute things to a single factor which I wouldn't necessarily do but you seem disposed to do), then that is indeed a preference to which you are entitled but one I don't share.

Ducati didn't lose a tyre advantage, the tyre which had been co- developed with Bridgestone to suit their bike was taken away from them by the control tyre rule and events preceding it, with many suggestions more recently if admittedly not so much at the time, except for one perceptive poster on here, that the 2007 tyre which so suited Stoner on the Ducati was discontinued in mid 2008 in the lead up to the control tyre for the following season. Bridgestone directly said initially that they were happy to continue the status quo with Ducati as their primary team.

I had no problem with Rossi being on Bridgestones, control or otherwise, just with choices being limited to tyres which suit the factory Hondas and Yamahas as I said above, and would have little problem with the current control tyre if there was a wider choice of tyres, obviously still available to all, and if decisions regarding the availability of tyres were less capricious.
 
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For mine, 2015/2016 were nothing special in terms of the way the seasons panned out, albeit I accept that 2016 did have a number of races where the applecart was upended and we got 'unexpected' results, but as has already been mentioned by others, those unexpected results are easily explained by circumstance.
Its not just who the race winners were or how many, its how the races panned out even when the usual suspects were on top. Qatar, Argentina, Assen, Phillip Island & Valencia in 2015. Lorenzo's jaw dropping win at Mugello. Marquez's crazy ride at Silverstone. Rossi at Catalunya & Phillip Island. The furball at Sepang. Most of the season's qualifying sessions - especially Austria. Even the 'non-aliens' earned their keep with some great performances by Crutchlow & the Ducatis even when it was only to second or third place. People will still be rewatching them 10 years from now (and I mean the hoi-polloi, not just the purists).

Point is, DORNA are now trying to manufacture something that they can then market as they have realised that the goose has limited time and in doing so they are not concerned at all about satellite teams, but on building a product that they can market and sell (yes, sell) based on an artificial competitiveness.
Is the competitiveness really artificial? Sure electronics development has been halted and tyre development is much slower. But the strongest manufacturers are still on top. The rider & constructor championship will still go to a Honda or Yamaha.

Its only that the Ducatis & Suzukis (& hopefully Aprilias) aren't as far off as they otherwise might have been. Without the spec electronics in play, Aprilia with its seven man engg dept probably wouldn't have bothered participating in the same series as Honda. It still can't threaten HRC/YRT dominance but maybe it could be fast enough for a good rider on a good day to 'steal' away a podium from a bigger team that's having a not-so-good day. Maybe 'steal' away a race win in Ducati's or Suzuki's case.

IMO only here but DORNA will be looking at selling the sport/series sometime around when the goose ceases involvement as they will know that the bottom line will be impacted, thus make it seem not so centric today, make it seem competitive and then sell at a profit leaving the real issue or sports development and growth to the next suckers (call me a cynic).
You mean Bridgepoint Capital may look to off-load its stake in Dorna? (Dorna itself have anywhere else to go unless Ezpeleta or his successor wants to confine himself to managing WSBK.)

Rossi too isn't going anywhere. He's already got his Moto2 project up and running, and a Yamaha-supported VR46 team in the premier class is pretty much a certainty. He plans to train and mentor the next generation of Italian riders (along with Asian hopefuls). Marquez is getting involved as well. Zarco spent this winter setting up his own training camp in France. I'm sure there are other riders with similar programs planned. Meanwhile Dorna is setting up a new feeder series for the British Isles and the existing feeders are expanding in SE Asia. Next year, Dorna plans to run 20 races. One of them will be Finland. The Thai govt yesterday approved the budget to bid make a formal bid for the other race.

I'm fairly upbeat about the long term prospects of the series and I think it'll succeed where F1 failed (call me naive). :)

Yep, we have been there and by all means correct me, but did not one of these minnow teams work with a tyre manufacturer and win something?

A world title perhaps?

And was it not this result that spurred Rossi to demand the tyre change (no problems there, he was off contract) which has subsquently led to today's situation which (IMO) feel would not have happened were Ducati not successful in 2007.
And David slew Goliath. Glorious because it was so unlikely. But, in general, it still remains bad policy to let kids with slings to challenge giants in armor.

Could Ducati have won without Stoner? How often does a rider of Stoner's calibre come along, let alone sign up with a 'minnow'?

Rossi switched to Bridgestones the very next year and won his 6th title. Would a switch to Michelins in 2009 have revived Ducati's fortunes? IMO even if Michelin had delivered a competitive tyre built to Ducati's requirements it would only have slowed the rate at which the Ducati ship sank while they no doubt continued to blame Stoner for the decline.

Now take the Ducati of last year on spec tyres. Can anyone doubt that a race-fit Stoner could have fought for the title on that? Dovizioso on that bike was at least as competitive as Capirossi on the GP7, probably a lot more.

The attitude of Poncharal (who you seem to focus on ............. do you have a vested interest may I ask) is one for Poncharal as in your example, on one hand he has access to factory Yamaha equipment that is setup for a specific tyre combination so he knows he (should) have a win capable machine, but on another hand, the bikes are a year old and may not come with all the bells and whistles that they had the prior year.
No vested interest in Poncharal, I'd say the same about Jorge Martinez for example. Poncharal is just the first that springs to mind because of how vocal he is about his financial & technical constraints. I think he was chatting with BT Sport and discussing Honda when someone said something about their problems and he practically snarled in response - "Livio Suppo doesn't have problems. I have problems. Luccio Cecchinello has problems." It was funny and everybody laughed. Most team principals aren't quite that blunt though.

So, does he 'sit tight' and trust that the bike will work and that his team is capable of getting it to work (are his mechanics/engineers up to the task and equally trained as the factory techs, does he have access to the prior year data which may or may not work for his riders, will the bike still work with the ongoing spec tyre changes). Or does he go, yep, give me the bikes but as I am a 'standalone and unsupported team' I may just shop around to see what options are available, perhaps different suspension and brake packages, or maybe even tyres.

How he would do business is his call remembering that a change of tyre or suspension suppliers may bring an initial dollars due to associated ccompanies (may not happen as well I must say), but the question could well be whether he wants to settle and follow, or try to become a front runner and lead which means that sometimes one needs to look outside of the box in which the toy came.
Tech 3 don't have a hope of seriously competing with the bigger factories especially over a season. With Ducati & Suzuki a major threat today, even a podium would be a major achievement. Their objective needs to be a realistic one i.e a conventional effort to be the top non-factory team rather than risk a debacle with an 'after-market' tyres. And start lobbying to reinstitute the rookie rule. At least Tech 3 can still attract riders like Zarco today, capable of posting consistently respectable results on an M1. I'm betting Morbidelli would be uncomfortable about what awaits at senior Marc VDS squad. Michael Bartholomew knows that he's got to up his results or his rider pool as well as sponsor pool will continue to shrink.

Looking for a bespoke tyre solution is probably a option that would be more interesting to the smaller manufacturers. The problem like I said before, is that not all suppliers have a serious interest participation in the series, and those that do want to be associated with the top riders & manufacturers, and any of the remainder willing to work with a smaller squad may not have what it takes to keep up with their primary suppliers, and those that are willing, capable & successful will go running the moment one of the big factories whistles. The Bridgestone story.
 
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