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Steady, you do appreciate that we're through to the final eight of the Champions League? - winning the English Premier League was simply a necessary prerequisite.

Now this would be an apocalyptic event in Spain.

My apologies I didn't realise, I thought you were banished back to the 'little leagues' from which you came :p.

Ok winning the premier league was more a solar eclipse, blocking out the sun from Manchester. I will await the apocalypse in Spain with much anticipation. Don't let me down, these things only happen once in a 1000 years I want to be able to say I witnessed it in my lifetime.
 
You seem to be holding onto a fantasy that the rest of the factory teams have any real chance over the course of 18 races to beat either Yamaha or Honda to the constructor's championship with spec tires. Winning a race here and there while nice for those teams, is not the same as putting together a cohesive campaign that results in one of their riders winning the title, or the team taking the constructor's championship at the end of the year.
Constructor/rider championships may not be viable but 'winning here and there' is still important for the series. Gives us better races and gives younger riders who couldn't find an open factory seat, better tools to prove their worth.

Suzuki has proven it can be done with Vinales winning by nearly 4 seconds at Silverstone. No one knows how Lorenzo will do at Ducati but IMO had he been on the GSX-RR today, he could have been fighting for a win at at least six venues and been a podium contender at many others. With Michelin rolling out its new fronts with better edge grip, and a little good weather, it could have gotten really interesting. Dovizioso will be a contender at Qatar & Austria and whichever track it rains at. Meanwhile, if Suzuki can win, Aprilia & KTM can hope.

Among the satellites, the Marc VDS squad is getting factory-spec bikes this year like LCR, and the Tech 3 squad will also reportedly be getting factory spec M1s next season. If costs can be controlled, the satellites will have more resources allowing for better competitiveness. Given their relatively meagre resources, the inflationary effect of a tyre war will hit them the worst.

Point being, even if there aren't 9 different winners this season, the series is genuinely more competitive today than it has been in a long long time. Perhaps ever.

The worst thing that can happen to it is giving Honda or Yamaha the opportunity to widen the gap between them and the field. And a tyre war will lead to exactly that.

The odds are already stacked in their favour, hardly makes sense to stack them higher still, by allowing them directive control on tyre development. And with the suppliers primarily interested scoring more wins & podiums than their opponent, that's exactly what will happen. The strongest riders on the best bikes will get a disproportionate say.
 
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You keep saying a tyre war will lead to that but you've been given evidence to show why you're wrong and why even the smaller factories the once you seem to be campaigning for believe you're wrong. If factories were given the option to work with the tyre manufacturer they wished and/or offered them the best deal and rules were put in place that meant if one factory decided to work with a certain manufacturer then that company will supply tyres to the satellite teams of that manufacturer and must have the tyre option there for everyone on the same bike. Ie if Honda and Yamaha are tied to the same manufacturer then all Michelin tyre option would have to be available for all Yamaha and Honda riders.

It's a fact that once Carnello made sure that Rossi got Bridgestones Stoner and Ducati were effected because tyre development favoured Rossi and Yamaha. Logic says that this is due to DORNA/Carmellos influence given that when Stoner asked for the tyres that suited him and his bike he was told no in the middle of a tyre war. Giving one company a monopoly on tyres favours DORNA because they then hold the power on tyre development and who the tyres should most favour. Under a tyre war type of situation without influence from DORNA Stoners tyres of choice wouldn't be taken away from him to stop his dominance twice. Lorenzo would likely have kept his preferred tyres from Michelin that he seemed so dominant with. Whether you believe that they're just coincidences or it is to stack the deck for certain more marketable riders, it is undeniable that in the last 10 years when DORNA have had more of a say in tyre development that certain riders have in fact been hampered due to removal of certain tyres and tyre development favouring another rider.

You seem to be of the opinion that developing a bike around a tyre is cheaper than developing tyres around bikes. I've never heard anyone say that is the case, it's a simple fact that many of DORNAs cost cutting ideas have ended up being more expensive, admittedly I do like the spec ECU as it has clearly bought the satellites closer to the factory over race distance. As Ducati proved, a brilliant engineer(and rider) with tyres developed for his vision can over come the infinitely larger check books of the two big guys. But with a control there is no chance in hell of that as these smaller factories are completely and totally hindered by having to build a Yamaha/Honda replica to make the control tyre which HRC/Yahama have most say in developing work for their riders.
 
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Rossi is the reason the tire war was ended.
Absolutely. I suspect even JKant recognises this at some level, hence the desperate sophistry and new found concern for the satellite teams.

I have never argued that Dorna has sought to contrive race or title results, although they are perhaps not averse to prolonging a title race.

What you, I and many non-members of the Rossi faithful would contend though is that Rossi has undue influence, and the process by which he got on the Bridgestones and the progression to a control tyre which many believe began in the 2008 season in terms of tyres which were available to Ducati is imo a good example of that influence. Again, I had no problem with him switching to Bridgestone, it was the subsequent lack of suitable tyres for Ducati with which I had a problem.
 
Absolutely. I suspect even JKant recognises this at some level, hence the desperate sophistry and new found concern for the satellite teams.

I have never argued that Dorna has sought to contrive race or title results, although they are perhaps not averse to prolonging a title race.

What you, I and many non-members of the Rossi faithful would contend though is that Rossi has undue influence, and the process by which he got on the Bridgestones and the progression to a control tyre which many believe began in the 2008 season in terms of tyres which were available to Ducati is imo a good example of that influence. Again, I had no problem with him switching to Bridgestone, it was the subsequent lack of suitable tyres for Ducati with which I had a problem.

My issue with Rossi switching to Bridgestone is simply that Stoner who would be the man best situated to know, says that tyre development started favouring Rossi and the Yamaha and made his bike much harder to win on. The evidence also suggests that this is the case, and after years of hard work put in by Ducati(plus the huge risk of taking a chance on an unknown) to make Brisgestone competitive, once it paid off other influences coluded to make sure of a more financially favourable outcome. It's also a glaring problem that only Rossi was allowed to switch over even though other top riders requested it.
 
Interesting ascertion. From what I've read the manufacturers don't regard motogp as simply 'sport'. The racing divisions are basically run as a stand alone entity as far as I can tell. They have employees, budgets, targets, marketing, success and failure. So even though its a sport the racing division functions as a business because in fact that's what they are and that's what they do. Riders are lightbulbs.
Well there are different perspectives here. For Dorna, more podium vying bikes make for harder racing, more battles, more upsets, which is great for the show and therefore great for their bottomline.

From the team's perspective, their finances are linked to the amount of advertising they can generate which, in turn, is a function of their results on the track. If you're a midfield/tailender, you'll have fewer sponsors and therefore smaller resources to invest in improving competitiveness.

This is where Dorna needs to play a role by leveling the playing field (with spec tyres & electronics, among other things) as best as possible and thus far they've done a fairly decent job. Ducati & Suzuki are fielding bikes that can podium on most tracks. Aprilia has improved a great deal. With Red Bull backing and an experienced team, KTM's long term prospects are fairly strong.

Also the prediction they would end up with 6 bikes on track doesn't bear out when you consider the likes of Suzuki, Ducati, KTM etc actually survive where its most important to survive. In the marketplace against much bigger mightier competition in the form of Honda and Yamaha. If what you were saying was true they would have all gone by the wayside as there would be absolutely no reason to buy a Suzuki when Honda is suposedly superior in all ways.
The other manufacturers are capable of competing to a large extent because of the new regulations that have reduced costs. Also, better racing has resulted in stronger public interest strengthening the economic rationale for participation.

The way forward cannot to let the non-HRT/YRT teams fade away due to punitively higher costs or be forced to resort to long shot experiments with tyres.

2007, another rule change, Ducati. Tyre wars, more opportunity for re-set or to put it another way introduce a ripple of anarchy into the motogp market and quess what, the big budget refiners often get caught with their pants down as the titanics of the sport take much longer to point in a new direction than do the smaller ships. I like a touch of anarchy, I haven't seen it since 2007.
If we could be sure of keeping the anarchy pot bubbling I'd agree. But fact is there is no way to ensure that the tyre situation would go against the Honda/Yamaha instead of going against the rest of the field. And even if a 2007-redux could be pulled off it would last only a season or so before they switched suppliers or their existing suppliers upped their game.

Most of time it would just help Honda & Yamaha dominate the series. I think a better shot of an upset would come from a on a Suzuki or Ducati that can run within 0.5-1.0 sec of the leader with a young 'alien' onboard.

Sure they may not be the best bikes on the grid but what if Rossi or Lorenzo (or maybe even Pedrosa) were on the GSX-RR? What if Stoner or Marquez were on the GP17? Would you really count them out? And who's to say there isn't another rider making his way up the ranks that can do better.

What you want is for these bikes to be fast enough for the rider to make that crucial difference. To at least give him a shot. And spec tyres IMO help.
 
You keep saying a tyre war will lead to that but you've been given evidence to show why you're wrong and why even the smaller factories the once you seem to be campaigning for believe you're wrong.
It isn't complicated. Tyre wars increase costs for everyone. The hardest hit will be the teams with the smallest budgets.

Ducati, for example, may be welcoming the spec electronics, but for Poncharal that's a problem because he now has to hire an electronics guy. One guy plus/minus makes no difference to the big factories. To the satellites, it does. To Aprilia with its seven engineers, it does. Those are kind of margins we are talking about. Free tyres will not make a significant difference to HRC but it will to Aspar.

If factories were given the option to work with the tyre manufacturer they wished and/or offered them the best deal and rules were put in place that meant if one factory decided to work with a certain manufacturer then that company will supply tyres to the satellite teams of that manufacturer and must have the tyre option there for everyone on the same bike. Ie if Honda and Yamaha are tied to the same manufacturer then all Michelin tyre option would have to be available for all Yamaha and Honda riders.
You have two tyre suppliers for six manufacturers - 12 riders. They cannot meet everyone's requirements - something's gotta give.

So who's going to get their way in that situation? HRC or Aprilia?

It's a fact that once Carnello made sure that Rossi got Bridgestones Stoner and Ducati were effected because tyre development favoured Rossi and Yamaha.
Okay. So how do you stop that? Rossi moved to Bridgestones in 2008, so te blame for that is clearly not on the introduction of spec tyres (which only happend in 2009).

And forgeting Stoner for a second, who's listening to what Aleix Espargaro or Bradley Smith want while Bridgestones is focused on the Yamahas & Michelin on the Hondas?

Dorna's involvement doesn't change anything. The tyre suppliers have a vested and perfectly justifiable interest in being associated with the strongest riders. They aren't participating because of their love of sport. For them its just business.

You seem to be of the opinion that developing a bike around a tyre is cheaper than developing tyres around bikes. I've never heard anyone say that is the case
Once the spec tyres are withdrawn, Michelin/Bridgestone will happily develop tyres around the Yamaha/Hondas forcing Aprilia/KTM/Suzuki to develop their bikes around the Michelin/Bridgestones.
 
Well there are different perspectives here. For Dorna, more podium vying bikes make for harder racing, more battles, more upsets, which is great for the show and therefore great for their bottomline.

From the team's perspective, their finances are linked to the amount of advertising they can generate which, in turn, is a function of their results on the track. If you're a midfield/tailender, you'll have fewer sponsors and therefore smaller resources to invest in improving competitiveness.

This is where Dorna needs to play a role by leveling the playing field (with spec tyres & electronics, among other things) as best as possible and thus far they've done a fairly decent job. Ducati & Suzuki are fielding bikes that can podium on most tracks. Aprilia has improved a great deal. With Red Bull backing and an experienced team, KTM's long term prospects are fairly strong.


The other manufacturers are capable of competing to a large extent because of the new regulations that have reduced costs. Also, better racing has resulted in stronger public interest strengthening the economic rationale for participation.

The way forward cannot to let the non-HRT/YRT teams fade away due to punitively higher costs or be forced to resort to long shot experiments with tyres.


If we could be sure of keeping the anarchy pot bubbling I'd agree. But fact is there is no way to ensure that the tyre situation would go against the Honda/Yamaha instead of going against the rest of the field. And even if a 2007-redux could be pulled off it would last only a season or so before they switched suppliers or their existing suppliers upped their game.

Most of time it would just help Honda & Yamaha dominate the series. I think a better shot of an upset would come from a on a Suzuki or Ducati that can run within 0.5-1.0 sec of the leader with a young 'alien' onboard.

Sure they may not be the best bikes on the grid but what if Rossi or Lorenzo (or maybe even Pedrosa) were on the GSX-RR? What if Stoner or Marquez were on the GP17? Would you really count them out? And who's to say there isn't another rider making his way up the ranks that can do better.

What you want is for these bikes to be fast enough for the rider to make that crucial difference. To at least give him a shot. And spec tyres IMO help.
You keep coming up with hypotheses and motherhood statements about the control tyre and satellite teams, as opposed to the actual historical facts of the tyre war, and in the absence of any evidence whatsoever that the satellite teams favoured a control tyre.
 
Again you keep going on about spec tyres helping when all the evidence points to the contrary. You have no evidence that it's the case. In fact the evidence points to the opposite given that there was a a 10 year drought of satellite bikes winning a race. Except for Cals win at Australia(where Matquez crashed out of a 10 second lead) all other wins were due to exceptional circumstances. Ducatis line non wet win came on a track with the drag strips and the smallest amount of corners. Suzukis lone win came from perfect cold but dry circumstances that are the only conditions that allow their bike to be competitive through race distance. Cals win in Brno was due to a gamble on tyres and others tyres catastrophically failing, Millers was due to Rossi and others crashing out and Marquez realising that a guaranteed second place was better than risking crashing against Miller who had nothing to lose. There is no evidence to suggest that the control tyre evens the playing field for both satellite teams and smaller manufacturers. The available evidence actually points to the complete opposite.
 
It isn't complicated. Tyre wars increase costs for everyone. The hardest hit will be the teams with the smallest budgets.

Again it is more expensive to develop a bike for a tyre than developing a tyre for a bike. DORNA could subsidise tyres for the satellite teams like it currently is as could the factory teams. The control tyre as the EVIDENCE points to totally is hurting the smaller teams and factories the most

Ducati, for example, may be welcoming the spec electronics, but for Poncharal that's a problem because he now has to hire an electronics guy. One guy plus/minus makes no difference to the big factories. To the satellites, it does. To Aprilia with its seven engineers, it does. Those are kind of margins we are talking about. Free tyres will not make a significant difference to HRC but it will to Aspar.

The slec electronics were a great idea and helped the satellites close the gap enormously. Poncher already had a electronics guy in his employ before the spec electronics. The only people against the spec electronics were Honda and Yamaha because they knew that's were they knew they could lose a lot of their advantages over race distance. Which last year has shown us that they did


You have two tyre suppliers for six manufacturers - 12 riders. They cannot meet everyone's requirements - something's gotta give.

So who's going to get their way in that situation? HRC or Aprilia

Again it comes down to the contract that he smaller manufacturers can sign. They're better off as the Bridgestone/Ducati combo proved to sign with an unproven brand and develop a tyre that can and will suit their bike. If Aprilia signed with Michelin it would likely be in their contract in this situation that they have some say in development of their own tyres which may be different

Okay. So how do you stop that? Rossi moved to Bridgestones in 2008, so te blame for that is clearly not on the introduction of spec tyres (which only happend in 2009).

Rossi moved to Brisgestone in 2008 in completely shady and unfair circumstances. Nobody else was allowed to change to Brisgestone, who originally refused to work with Rossi until Uncle Carmello had a word with them. Rossi is also a major reason why the control tyre came into existence. Explain to me why it was fair that Rossi and only Rossi was able to switch to Bridgestone after they said no and then the development once Rossi was given his tyres turned completely his way as proven by Stoners worse performance in 2008 compared to 2007 and the fact no other Ducati was able to win

And forgeting Stoner for a second, who's listening to what Aleix Espargaro or Bradley Smith want while Bridgestones is focused on the Yamahas & Michelin on the Hondas?
Again both factory riders would be better served if they had a manufacturer that listened to their development input rather than their current situation

Dorna's involvement doesn't change anything. The tyre suppliers have a vested and perfectly justifiable interest in being associated with the strongest riders. They aren't participating because of their love of sport. For them its just business.
DORNAs involvement does and has changed many things including tyres being withdrawn for no apparent reason that clearly hindered Lorenzo and Stoners performance once they started to show dominance

Once the spec tyres are withdrawn, Michelin/Bridgestone will happily develop tyres around the Yamaha/Hondas forcing Aprilia/KTM/Suzuki to develop their bikes around the Michelin/Bridgestones.

What if Suzuki who have a similar bike to Yamaha went with Michelin as Yamaha did. Both bikes have very similar characteristics.

Honda went with Bridgestone as did KTM as they appear to be attempting to build something very similar to the RCV

But then Ducati knowing they can't compete on the same tyres as Honda and Yamaha and beat them went with Pirelli who then developed a great tyre for their bike? Making them once again with Lorenzo on board capable of winning a world title.

Sure it's a pipe dream and will never happen but your opinion of the spec tyre being the savour of small manufacturers and satellite teams is totally wrong and has no evidence while the same can not be said for the contrary.
 
Again you keep going on about spec tyres helping when all the evidence points to the contrary. You have no evidence that it's the case.
:shrug:

Do spec tyres not reduce costs to the teams? Do reduced costs not help satellites (relative to the factories)? Does stopping tyre suppliers directed by HRC/YRT not help the smaller manufacturers?

In fact the evidence points to the opposite given that there was a a 10 year drought of satellite bikes winning a race.
The entry of Stoner, Pedrosa & Lorenzo coincided with a drought in wins for satellite bikes. Is that really surprising?

There are other reasons too. If you go back in time, you'll find all the winning satellites in past were factory spec Hondas. No factory M1s were available to customer teams - then or now. And in the wake of the great recession not everyone could afford to lease a factory supported Honda and, in general, teams with limited budgets struggled.
 
:shrug:

Do spec tyres not reduce costs to the teams? Do reduced costs not help satellites (relative to the factories)? Does stopping tyre suppliers directed by HRC/YRT not help the smaller manufacturers?


The entry of Stoner, Pedrosa & Lorenzo coincided with a drought in wins for satellite bikes. Is that really surprising?

There are other reasons too. If you go back in time, you'll find all the winning satellites in past were factory spec Hondas. No factory M1s were available to customer teams - then or now. And in the wake of the great recession not everyone could afford to lease a factory supported Honda and, in general, teams with limited budgets struggled.
Again, provide a statement from anyone associated with a satellite team that they favoured a control tyre.

Explain why when there was a tyre war, Ducati, Suzuki, Kawasaki and the leading satellite team went with a different tyre supplier than the one supplying the Honda and Yamaha factory teams.

Explain why Ducati said the lack of a suitable tyre after the advent of the control tyre made them uncompetitive, and why Suzuki temporarily and Kawasaki permanently left the sport citing the lack of a suitable tyre as their reason for doing so.

Citing the GFC is particularly desperate sophistry given the decision to go to the control tyre was made before it occurred, and that as above you present no evidence that the satellite teams favoured a control tyre or saw tyres as their most important cost burden, and that also as above it forced Suzuki (EDIT and Ducati for that matter) to re-design their bike to suit the control tyre, an expense Kawasaki decided was not one it was prepared to bear.
 
Again it is more expensive to develop a bike for a tyre than developing a tyre for a bike. DORNA could subsidise tyres for the satellite teams like it currently is as could the factory teams. The control tyre as the EVIDENCE points to totally is hurting the smaller teams and factories the most
Again, the tyre development will always favour HRC & YRT at the expense of everyone else. Dorna is already subsidizing the satellite teams (equivalent to roughly half of their budget). There's a limit to how far it'll go down that path especially when it involve a cutthroat tyre war.

The slec electronics were a great idea and helped the satellites close the gap enormously. Poncher already had a electronics guy in his employ before the spec electronics. The only people against the spec electronics were Honda and Yamaha because they knew that's were they knew they could lose a lot of their advantages over race distance. Which last year has shown us that they did
Even an obviously great idea can be a problem for a satellite team. The point was to illustrate the kind of budgetary challenges that the satellite teams have to cope with.

Again it comes down to the contract that he smaller manufacturers can sign. They're better off as the Bridgestone/Ducati combo proved to sign with an unproven brand and develop a tyre that can and will suit their bike. If Aprilia signed with Michelin it would likely be in their contract in this situation that they have some say in development of their own tyres which may be different
How many unproven brands are there willing to get involved in an expensive tyre war against Michelin & Bridgestone. Hell when the exclusive MotoGP tyre contract came up in 2015, Pirelli & Dunlop didn't even bother bidding for it!! You think they're interested in an R&D dogfight? Even if one of them did decide to get involved - you'd still have only 3 suppliers for 12 riders.

Do you think really Aprilia could get a contract that provides it influence in tyre development comparable to Honda or Yamaha?

Rossi moved to Brisgestone in 2008 in completely shady and unfair circumstances. Nobody else was allowed to change to Brisgestone, who originally refused to work with Rossi until Uncle Carmello had a word with them.

Explain to me why it was fair that Rossi and only Rossi was able to switch to Bridgestone after they said no and then the development once Rossi was given his tyres turned completely his way as proven by Stoners worse performance in 2008 compared to 2007 and the fact no other Ducati was able to win
Lets say everyone had been allowed to change tyres in 2008 (as a matter of fact, Pedrosa did do that mid-season).

So what? How would that have changed anything? Short of forcing Stoner to run Michelins, the title contest would remain unchanged. Lorenzo might have improved his points tally. Or not.

More importantly, how would that in any way reduce Rossi's influence vis a vis Bridgestone?

Again both factory riders would be better served if they had a manufacturer that listened to their development input rather than their current situation
Like I said, there are only two serious tyre suppliers - how are you going to get them to listen to the smaller manufacturers or satellites?

And no contracts aren't the answer. They just formalize an agreement. You still need to get the suppliers to agree to it in the first place.

What if Suzuki who have a similar bike to Yamaha went with Michelin as Yamaha did. Both bikes have very similar characteristics.

Honda went with Bridgestone as did KTM as they appear to be attempting to build something very similar to the RCV
Suzuki & KTM would still be adjusting to what is available to them. Employing the same tyre wouldn't given them the same degree of influence on its development. And this is without even considering the individual preferences of its riders.

But then Ducati knowing they can't compete on the same tyres as Honda and Yamaha and beat them went with Pirelli who then developed a great tyre for their bike? Making them once again with Lorenzo on board capable of winning a world title.
Are Pirelli willing to enter the fray against Michelin & Bridgestone? Why didn't they do so in the pre-spec era? How long will it take for them to introduce a 'great tyre'? How is Ducati supposed to cope meanwhile? Will it be able to fight for podiums on a non-so-great-work-in-progress Pirelli? If not, how will the satellite Ducatis cope? If they can't, will they switch over to Honda? If so, wouldn't that further shrink Pirelli's footprint and make it harder to compete? You see where this is going.
 
How many satellite m1s got a podium last year? How many satellite Ducatis? How many wins did Ducati or Suzuki get without extremely favourable conditions? How many satellite Hondas won in the dry without a faster rider crashing out?

That you think the current situation is the best despite all the evidence across many forms of road racing is the best shows your lack of knowledge. The fact you can't see that owners of racing series have coluded with tyre manufacturers to make preferable outcomes more likely and/or hindered drivers and riders from running a preferable race due to purposeful poor design. DORNA wanted a control tyre not to help satellite teams budget but to have serious input on how the racing will go and stack the deck for or against some riders. Without their intervention Stoner probably wins at leas the '08 and '12 titles. Without their intervention Stoner would probably still be racing to this day. Giving all the power to a clearly corrupt company is not a good thing and if you could see past the end of your nose you would be able to see why it isn't working and why nobody has come out in support of the control tyre. Whether Pirelli or other brands would want in or not is unknown as no factory has ever approached them with a serious offer and it's a huge investment to become sole tyre supplier to the MotoGP. Something that Michelin only got because Bridgestone wanted out.

How is Ducati coping now with a control tyre? They've given up all of their racing DNA and history because the control tyre forced them to build a twin bar aluminium frame on an effort to compete with Honda and Yamaha on the same tyre. Aprilia will never be anything but a grid filler because they don't have the budget to compete with anyone on the same tyre. KTM might have to either drop out or abandon a trellis frame, a major part of their DNA to be competitive on the same tyre as HRC/Yam. No riders or manufacturers are in agreement with you about a control tyre being a great thing. The only happiness that some satellite teams have had is that the same tyre is available to them as is to the factory teams, something that should've always been the case and if stipulated in another tyre war would be easy to include. Riders riding the same bike will for the most part prefer very similar tyres as has been proven again and again. All the riders preffered Lorenzos favoured edge treated tyres including Rossi and Marquez.
 
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Again, provide a statement from anyone associated with a satellite team that they favoured a control tyre.

Explain why when there was a tyre war, Ducati, Suzuki, Kawasaki and the leading satellite team went with a different tyre supplier than the one supplying the Honda and Yamaha factory teams.

Explain why Ducati said the lack of a suitable tyre after the advent of the control tyre made them uncompetitive, and why Suzuki temporarily and Kawasaki permanently left the sport citing the lack of a suitable tyre as their reason for doing so.

Citing the GFC is particularly desperate sophistry given the decision to go to the control tyre was made before it occurred, and that as above you present no evidence that the satellite teams favoured a control tyre or saw tyres as their most important cost burden, and that also as above it forced Suzuki (EDIT and Ducati for that matter) to re-design their bike to suit the control tyre, an expense Kawasaki decided was not one it was prepared to bear.
Ducati, Suzuki, Kawasaki along with most of the field raced on Bridgestones or Michelins. Only Pramac & Tech 3 ran Dunlops, consistently finishing in the bottom four, before ditching them in 2007.

Ducati's competitiveness as a manufacturer is about the same as it was a decade ago. Scored about 250 pts both times putting it in third place on the constructors chart.

Suzuki left because of tough economic conditions while pledging to return when they could (reduced expenditure on bespoke electronics probably helped).

Kawasaki left because it was too expensive for them to continue in MotoGP unable to afford investment in essential technologies like the seamless gearbox that couldn't be carried forth to road bikes. But before withdrawing Kawasaki planned to run continue running Bridgestones in 2009 so the new regulations made zero difference to them.
 
How many satellite m1s got a podium last year? How many satellite Ducatis? How many wins did Ducati or Suzuki get without extremely favourable conditions? How many satellite Hondas won in the dry without a faster rider crashing out?
They did no worse than they would have on whatever tyre the factory teams specified. Like it or not they're still on second best bikes. And they still accounted for 3 wins last season which in a field populated with four or five 'aliens' and four competitive factories is pretty good.

That you think the current situation is the best despite all the evidence across many forms of road racing is the best shows your lack of knowledge. The fact you can't see that owners of racing series have coluded with tyre manufacturers to make preferable outcomes more likely and/or hindered drivers and riders from running a preferable race due to purposeful poor design. DORNA wanted a control tyre not to help satellite teams budget but to have serious input on how the racing will go and stack the deck for or against some riders. Without their intervention Stoner probably wins at leas the '08 and '12 titles. Without their intervention Stoner would probably still be racing to this day.
So would restarting the tyre wars give Dorna any less influence in the sport? Would Dunlop or Michelin or Bridgestone stop heeding Dorna's directives if they were involved in a free-for-all?

If not, then none of this is relevant to the issue at hand.

If Dorna can influence spec tyre development as well as influencing bespoke tyre development, then it has stopped being a variable in the equation.

Whether Pirelli or other brands would want in or not is unknown as no factory has ever approached them with a serious offer and it's a huge investment to become sole tyre supplier to the MotoGP. Something that Michelin only got because Bridgestone wanted out.
Dorna offered an open contract for the supplier to MotoGP that Pirelli didn't bother to contest leaving Michelin to walk away with it. If they were serious about the MotoGP now they'd have made an effort. If they were serious about it in the past they'd have approached a factory with a serious offer instead of waiting for something else to take the initiative. And as large as the investment to be tyre supplier is, the investment in R&D required to remain competitive with the likes of Michelin isn't paltry either. Doubly so when they're required to outdo their competition to make up for factories' disadvantages in performance.
 
Ducati, Suzuki, Kawasaki along with most of the field raced on Bridgestones or Michelins. Only Pramac & Tech 3 ran Dunlops, consistently finishing in the bottom four, before ditching them in 2007.

Ducati's competitiveness as a manufacturer is about the same as it was a decade ago. Scored about 250 pts both times putting it in third place on the constructors chart.

Suzuki left because of tough economic conditions while pledging to return when they could (reduced expenditure on bespoke electronics probably helped).

Kawasaki left because it was too expensive for them to continue in MotoGP unable to afford investment in essential technologies like the seamless gearbox that couldn't be carried forth to road bikes. But before withdrawing Kawasaki planned to run continue running Bridgestones in 2009 so the new regulations made zero difference to them.
Again you deal in the hypothetical and ignore the factual when it does not suit your argument. All 3 of Ducati, Suzuki and Kawasaki said that lack of suitable tyres was a major problem for them, with Suzuki and Kawasaki saying it required re-designing their bikes. Ducati have completely re-designed their bike and have said all along a suitable tyre would have solved most of their design issues. All of the parties I mentioned, which included Gresini/Fortuna/whatever Honda, in actuality rather than hypothetically in your posts, chose to go with a tyre provider other than the one supplying the Honda and Yamaha factory teams when that choice was available to them.


2 is actually more than 1 btw, and a sufficient number of antagonists for a war of any type, tyre or otherwise. There have been tyre companies other than Bridgestone and Michelin which have been important tyre suppliers in premier class history in any case, a history which began before the year 2000. F1 currently I understand has Pirelli as their tyre supplier despite Michelin and Bridgestone being the major tyre suppliers in the recent past; is F1 tyre supply cheaper than supplying MotoGP, or are you going to tell me that 4 is the same as 2 amongst other sophistry as well? Actually F1 going to a control tyre might be the most important reason of all for MotoGP going that way given Ezy's long term tendency to slavishly ape F1/Bernie.

We pretty much all agree a return to a tyre war is not going to happen also btw, what is being disputed is your attempted re-invention of history in regard to the time when there was last a tyre war and transition to a control tyre, and in particular your attempted post hoc justification of the control tyre on the basis of the wishes of the satellite teams, for which you have presented absolutely zero evidence.
 
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Again you deal in the hypothetical and ignore the factual when it does not suit your argument. All 3 of Ducati, Suzuki and Kawasaki said that lack of suitable tyres was a major problem for them, with Suzuki and Kawasaki saying it required re-designing their bikes. Ducati have completely re-designed their bike and have said all along a suitable tyre would have solved most of their design issues. All of the parties I mentioned, which included Gresini/Fortuna/whatever Honda, in actuality rather than hypothetically in your posts, chose to go with a tyre provider other than the one supplying the Honda and Yamaha factory teams when that choice was available to them.
There wouldn't have been a spec tyre introduced at all if Kawasaki had been willing to switch to Michelins after 2008.

2 is actually more than 1 btw, and a sufficient number of antagonists for a war of any type, tyre or otherwise.
There are 6 manufacturers supplying 12 factory riders & 11 non-factory riders on the grid. All of whom want and deserve tyres customized for their own specific needs or styles.

There have been tyre companies other than Bridgestone and Michelin which have been important tyre suppliers in premier class history in any case, a history which began before the year 2000. F1 currently I understand has Pirelli as their tyre supplier despite Michelin and Bridgestone being the major tyre suppliers in the recent past; is F1 tyre supply cheaper than supplying MotoGP, or are you going to tell me that 4 is the same as 2 amongst other sophistry as well? Actually F1 going to a control tyre might be the most important reason of all for MotoGP going that way given Ezy's long term tendency to slavishly ape F1/Bernie.
Over the last 30 years in F1 - 19 have involved a single supplier, 11 of them have involved two tyre suppliers and 0 have involved three tyre suppliers.

F1, for better or worse, doesn't cut it as an example of what a tyre war between more than 2 suppliers would look like.

We pretty much all agree a return to a tyre war is not going to happen also btw, what is being disputed is your attempted re-invention of history in regard to the time when there was last a tyre war and transition to a control tyre, and in particular your attempted post hoc justification of the control tyre on the basis of the wishes of the satellite teams, for which you have presented absolutely zero evidence.
Simple inference. Spec tyres reduce costs (much more for satellites as a percentage of their total budget) while leaving the performance gap with the factories unchanged or reduced (with the suppliers otherwise taking their developmental cues from factories).
 
Sure costs would plateau eventually but it would still be at a level which is not affordable for the majority of the field.

You assume that the teams would have to buy or partially subsidise their tyres and yet elsewhere it has been said that to be involved today costs Michelin as the teams do not purchase tyres etc.

My belief is quite simple, and that is that the teams would not need to buy tyres as there will be tyre manufacturers who will want to be involved with specific teams or riders and through smart contractual negotiations, the team will be charged zilch as the trade off if successful is that the tyre company will increase market share. Of course, this will work where the tyre manufacturer wishes to work with or sponsor the team involved and there may be occasions or situations where 'lesser' teams may need to subsidise or encourage the tyre company (which can be done by increasing of size of fonts and awareness etc)



Tyres in demand would perhaps be manufactured in larger volumes and be cheaper but that also means that more exotic builds would be more expensive putting riders & teams that prefer it at a disadvantage.

True but again, the chances of one-off exotic builds for a single rider would be less as if the rider is high profile (let us use Marquez for example), then many will want that tyre and will simply adjust themselves (the old, if he can do it approach).

For riders of lesser profile or capability, if that is the only tyre that works, then it will be a low volume build and thus, costs are not as high (albeit, higher)


Thing is, we've been here in past. Pramac dumped its Dunlops in 2006. Tech 3 used them for a year but by 2007, they'd realized that they didn't have a future together with its riders placing last and third last in the rider standings.

Maybe that was because of a lack of will on Dunlop's part to invest in remaining competitive, maybe it was something else. In either case, sponsoring the tailenders wasn't exactly great advertising for its product and its exit from the class was more or less inevitable.

Just because it had issues once does not mean that it will today plus, the period you mention is during the GFC where dollar investment was reducing and the end result was the whinge and control tyres.

Conversely, it did work for Bridgestone to target a smaller team and build with that team, so for every diamond, there is a turd so to speak but we should not dwell on turds.

As for Dunlop's will, I do vaguely (emphasis on vaguely) recall articles surrounding a change in their focus to another form of motorsports as to why they did start to drop off, but again, it also corresponded with GFC.



But to come back today, sponsor a team willing to run its tyres and also make those tyres available to rest of the field, its just not doable.

It is doable, but one needs to not expect results immediately but allow time to achieve the result.

Again also, it is not entire field but tyres available to contracted riders/teams so if they chose, they simply do not have to sponsor teams which then allows them to make tyres available for purchase (all manufacturers). This of course goes back to your first point, increasing cost of satellite teams which for mine, is a simple 'survival of the fittest' scenario as if the team is uncompetitive because they have no money, either find money or reassess targets (drop to Moto2, get results/sponsors and return for example)


Given its fairly decent prospects, would Aspar be willing to risk it all by switching to Pirellis? Would they do so next year when they receive a new batch of bikes that have been specifically designed to work with whatever tyre factory Ducatis are using?

You mentioned Aspar thus I used them as the example but why not?

There was a time when I am sure that someone at Ducati asked whether they should go with Bridgestone or use the Michelin that everyone else was using, and we know what happened there.

Point is, sometimes if a team gambles, they can win and simple good results will bring interest and often with interest comes money.

Sure Aspar or any other team can use the same tyres as everyone else but that also runs a serious risk of placing them as one of the flock rather than the black sheep out there getting noticed.


This takes us back to square one where every rider is forced to use the tyre that his team is contracted for.

Which is no different to today.

Riders have to use tyres that they have had little to no input in developing and that have been shown to cause unexpected results (front end loses) and/or have negative effects on bike setup compared to tyres that were tested.



Rossi, Lorenzo, Marquez get their say in how the tyre evolves (since the supplier is interested in getting those wins & podiums) while Folger, Redding & Miller are forced to use what they're given (since the supplier is less interested in top 10 finishes).

Which is the large issue I have and always have since the single supply (as if you haven't guessed, I believe in prototype to mean prototype, not spec this, prototype that), the tyres used today are built for a small number of people, so my desire and belief is increase that number of people by building more tyres (if that makes sense)
 
There wouldn't have been a spec tyre introduced at all if Kawasaki had been willing to switch to Michelins after 2008.


There are 6 manufacturers supplying 12 factory riders & 11 non-factory riders on the grid. All of whom want and deserve tyres customized for their own specific needs or styles.


Over the last 30 years in F1 - 19 have involved a single supplier, 11 of them have involved two tyre suppliers and 0 have involved three tyre suppliers.

F1, for better or worse, doesn't cut it as an example of what a tyre war between more than 2 suppliers would look like.


Simple inference. Spec tyres reduce costs (much more for satellites as a percentage of their total budget) while leaving the performance gap with the factories unchanged or reduced (with the suppliers otherwise taking their developmental cues from factories).

I am a patient and practised man when it comes to denialists having debated Rossi fans for 10 years now on MotoGP fora. Merely obstinately repeating your arguments after their logical flaws have been repeatedly pointed out to you lends them no more force.

Your "for the benefit of the satellite teams" argument is at best post hoc, and close to a decade post hoc at that. Once more I ask, provide even a single piece of evidence that a control tyre was what the satellite teams wanted or that they regarded the control tyre as being to or for their benefit .

I agree Dunlop wasn't a competitive tyre supplier when there was last a tyre war, but they have been in the past. That isn't the point however, which was that 2 competitive suppliers is quite sufficient for a tyre war, and that last time there was a tyre war it eventually worked against HRC and the Factory Yamaha team, and one Valentino Rossi in particular which is fairly obviously your main problem, and the second string supplier at the time of their choice was the choice of all those I mentioned including the leading satellite team then, when they had a choice, and your attempts to spin the control tyre as being for the benefit of other teams against Honda and Yamaha grow more ludicrous by the post.

So Pirelli didn't bid to be the control tyre supplier for MotoGP as well as F1 simultaneously? How surprising. My point was that they have the resources to be a motor sport tyre supplier even at F1 level and have been the tyre supplier to WSBK just as Dunlop have supplied premier class world champions in the past, and hence Bridgestone and Michelin are not the only potential tyre suppliers for all eternity.

As JPS said, the control tyre was down to Rossi, and at the very least a result of him not being prepared to tolerate anyone else having what looked like a possible tyre advantage for even a single year, and Pedrosa then following him in an even more unprecedented fashion to change his tyre mid season. It is obviously more in the realm of conjecture, but I also have sympathy for the view that Dorna wanted no more nasty surprises in terms of unpopular upstarts winning titles, and that a control tyre served that end.
 
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