motogp

agree with mostly all uve said ooost but didnt yam develop the bike to rossis needs? u know strong on the front so hes got all the confidence to go fast into the corners?

Yes, the M1 was developed around Rossi as soon as he began testing. I'm a bit confused as to what that has to do with my post about Hayden. Please clarify.

This new V5 that Honda have been testing[with an all new chassis too],upto now i think gibbers and biaggi have had a sniff,but if the reports are right this new chassis allows you to carry more corner speed which may allow for nicky to cut out some of this sliding lark,he has a diferent rear brake pedal too,to the rest cos he uses it so much ?i know they have used the chassis[gibber's/biaggi],but this new V5 motor is still in testing,but lets hope nicky gets a go at this new chassis and see what happens from there !

I would expect HRC will keep this machine pretty close to their chest, with the near sure departure of Gibernau to Ducati I don't think he will get a shot, Biaggi may get another test with it but I doubt it and they won't put anymore on Hayden's plate until after Valencia. In the first off season test I think we will see Hayden and Melandri fulfilling testing duties aboard the all new RC211V with Pedrosa putting some miles on either a 2005 spec RCV or aboard the 800cc V3 machine. But yes Dr. Costa, more corner speed should reduce the amount of slide Hayden has at corner exit.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ooost @ Sep 26 2005, 10:32 PM)<div class='quotemain'>Marijke I know what you mean with the Nicky forum, I don't check it out much anymore as there aren't many knowledgable posters anymore.  Apart from our buddy General.
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thats because they love the rider , not the sport. it's the same on all the riders forums. it's about the rider not the racing.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ooost @ Sep 27 2005, 06:15 PM)<div class='quotemain'>I would expect HRC will keep this machine pretty close to their chest, with the near sure departure of Gibernau to Ducati I don't think he will get a shot, Biaggi may get another test with it but I doubt it and they won't put anymore on Hayden's plate until after Valencia.  In the first off season test I think we will see Hayden and Melandri fulfilling testing duties aboard the all new RC211V with Pedrosa putting some miles on either a 2005 spec RCV or aboard the 800cc V3 machine.  But yes Dr. Costa, more corner speed should reduce the amount of slide Hayden has at corner exit.
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i don't know Ooost, rossi's won the championship why not start trying the new stuff now? i think it would be a good thing if hayden, melandri, & even max to get a jump on next season & start trying the new stuff. just my humble opinion.

thats me kev58 ^

love those crazy smilies kev man !!!

Hey you guys where do you get those neat smilies from

Well guys just have to say I'm sick of all this dribble about Hayden, I've been hearing it since I got here same oll excuses all the time, About time you guys faced it, he can't hack it he's not a player. He can't ride as good as the others, By Ooost's reasoning he has to override the bike to stay with the others cooking the tyres, and fading always fading.

Tell me whats he really done in his career

well, that's a bit harsh, isn't it????
I agree with you that hayden needs to let other people see how good he is and it needs to come out of him this season, or next season, otherwise he won't be in the motogp for that long anymore!
but he HAS done some good things, he won laguna, he has got several other podium places over the past 2 seasons, he's been the rookie of the year for his talents, it was in 2002 I believe, and he did great in the ama. you don't become a rider in the motogp for nothing.
so don't be all negative about nicky, he has done some great things. it's maybe because he didn't ride in the 125cc and the 250cc that it seems like he hasn't won anything... I thing he's better then some other riders in the motogp

think you might reed the whole topic again, we're not making excuses for hayden, we critize him,his ridingstyle etc.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>He can't ride as good as the others
can you explain who you mean by the others? rossi, capirossi, gibernau??

Keep in mind Marbs, this is only Hayden's thrid time to some of these tracks. Guys like Rossi, Melandri, Biaggi, Capirossi, Gibernau and the like have been riding these tracks for a decade. Melandri began his GP career when he was 15 if I'm not mistaken and he is now 23, that is 8 years. Hayden is working on his third, you may think it's a lame excuse but there is little substitute for track knowledge. It's kind of funny to me, people claim Nicky's win at Laguna was a one off because he has more track knowledge than everyone else (and let's keep in mind practice time was extended by an hour and a half on the USGP round so the other riders could get acclimated). Yet, no one seems to want to admit that he is only on his third season in Europe, as Nicky was quoted as saying himself at the USGP "No one ever gave me an extra hour and a half."

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ooost @ Sep 28 2005, 05:25 PM)<div class='quotemain'>Keep in mind Marbs, this is only Hayden's thrid time to some of these tracks.  Guys like Rossi, Melandri, Biaggi, Capirossi, Gibernau and the like have been riding these tracks for a decade.  Melandri began his GP career when he was 15 if I'm not mistaken and he is now 23, that is 8 years.  Hayden is working on his third, you may think it's a lame excuse but there is little substitute for track knowledge.  It's kind of funny to me, people claim Nicky's win at Laguna was a one off because he has more track knowledge than everyone else (and let's keep in mind practice time was extended by an hour and a half on the USGP round so the other riders could get acclimated).  Yet, no one seems to want to admit that he is only on his third season in Europe, as Nicky was quoted as saying himself at the USGP "No one ever gave me an extra hour and a half."
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SPOT ON Ooost!!!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dr Costa @ Sep 28 2005, 10:24 AM)<div class='quotemain'>love those crazy smilies kev man !!!  
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love the jet dude! ain't seen that 1 before

Where are all these crazy smiles? I haven't checked recently but last time I did I didn't find anything new.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>Keep in mind Marbs, this is only Hayden's thrid time to some of these tracks.

Well Ooost I thought you had a valid point here, but after some thought and a bit of research I don't really think this argument stacks up. I'll tell you why and hope you make a comment.

While true some tracks are only his 3rd visit there are many that you can't put into this catagory. I'll list them and reasons

Sepang: reasonablly new track for everyone and lots of testing goes on there
Philip Island: lots testing goes on there
Losail: New Circuit for everyone
Jerez: Lots of testing goes on there
Valenca: lots of testing goes on there
China: New Circuit for everyone

On checking Hayden's results at these circuits they are really no different to what he has been achiving at other circuits so I really don't think your argument stacks up. To carry your theory forward a bit this weekend in Qatar and at the new track in Turkey Hayden should be really doing the Job. I wait with baited breath.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>It's kind of funny to me, people claim Nicky's win at Laguna was a one off

Well I can't see how you can say anything else, He has better knowlege than the rest except perhaps Edwards (who was 2nd) They were a class above the field at Laguna they both havn't done much else.

46marijke69

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>  well, that's a bit harsh, isn't it????

Nope needs to be said, give me your best argument why he is do good then

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>and he did great in the ama.

Sorry but I don't rate the AMA or for that matter neither does the BSB or even the WSBK of the last few years, WSBK are only just becoming compeditive again now IMHO.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>can you explain who you mean by the others? rossi, capirossi, gibernau??

Yup I can, what I mean is who ever is leading the GP at the time usally Rossi but always someone challeging him. But Hayden can never hang with them after half race distance. Best reason I've heard for this he is cooking his tyres, well ya gotta ask the question why. Ok I agree he slides it to much, but hey I remeber Rossi's 1st year on the 990 wow remeber his slides, guess what he fiqured it out its probably not the best approach and changed very quickly. Sorry but Hayden is still sliding it, still going backwards duh.

IMHO he is starting to turn into a bit of a Biaggi if he can't do something about altering is riding style. And this other dribble I've heard about "oh wait till he gets the right tyre" please give me a break.

Well there you are Hayden fan's hack that lot to bits.

I'll do my best to rebuttle to each of your points Marbs.

True that there is a lot of testing at Jerez, Catalunya, Philip Island and Sepand and Losail, Turkey and China are all new tracks which makes for level playing for all riders. However, there are still the tracks of Estoril, Le Mans, Mugello, Assen, Donington, Sachsenring and Brno. I have left out Motegi as there have been tests there in the past and Laguna Seca because of Nicky's experience there. There are 7 tracks in which off season testing does not occur in comparison to 6 that do have off season testing. Yes the track time is very valuable but it is hard to argue that going to these locations 2 or 3 times a year for 2 and a half years makes up for the experience of the same amount of tests for at least 8 years.

Nicky is third fastest after day one behind Rossi and Elias, and as much as I hate to say it as an Elias fan, but I am skeptical of his race pace. As of FP2 Nicky must appear to be the top challenger to Rossi for this race, I hope that remains correct throughout the weekend but it could change.

It is true that Nicky and Edwards have superior knowledge of Laguna, but couldn't it also be argued that teams that test extensively at certain tracks have a similar advantage? Ducati at Mugello. Also, there were between 9 and 11 riders on the grid that had ridden the Laguna Seca circuit before so you can't argue that Hayden and Edwards had far more knowledge than anyone. There was a reason for Bayliss and Biaggi's impressive performance.

I can't comment on whether or not your comments are too harsh. It is, after all, your opinion. I just see Hayden as a very fast young rider who needs time to blossom, it took Doohan 4 years to nab his first win.

I'm sorry that you don't rate the AMA, BSB or WSB. All three of these series have bread or are currently breeding MotoGP contenders. There is much talk of Ryuchi Kiyonari of BSB joining MotoGP in the next few seasons, Chris Vermeulen of WSB is rumored to receive a Honda seat in 2007, and Jason Disavlo, Ben Spies and Roger Hayden of the AMA are all tipped to be future MotoGP riders. At the moment the talent level in each series is nowhere near MotoGP, but each series is a breeding ground for future MotoGP champions.

Hayden may fade at the end of races, but please name another rider who can consistantly stick with Rossi at the front. Gibernau may stick with him, I'll admit Gibernau is faster than any man on the grid barring Rossi when he is on, but Gibernau hasn't had his head straight since Jerez. He hasn't shown me this season that he has what it takes. You could argue Capirossi's form of late shows he can stay with Rossi, but what about the first 11 rounds when he finished no higher than 6th barring his third place at his home round of Mugello. That certainly doesn't count for consistancy. What about Melandri? He had an impressive first half of the season showing Rossi a wheel occasionally but he hasn't scored a podium finish since Assen. What I'm trying to say is no rider is consistantly challenging Rossi and to single out Hayden is a bit harsh. If anything he has been one of the most consistant front runners all season.

Hayden's time will come and apparently I'm not the only one who thinks so. I don't think HRC would have signed him to two factory rides if they didn't think he has what it takes.

Ahh Ooost thank you I do love a good informed debate

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>True that there is a lot of testing at Jerez, Catalunya, Philip Island and Sepand and Losail, Turkey and China are all new tracks which makes for level playing for all riders. However, there are still the tracks of Estoril, Le Mans, Mugello, Assen, Donington, Sachsenring and Brno. I have left out Motegi as there have been tests there in the past and Laguna Seca because of Nicky's experience there. There are 7 tracks in which off season testing does not occur in comparison to 6 that do have off season testing. Yes the track time is very valuable but it is hard to argue that going to these locations 2 or 3 times a year for 2 and a half years makes up for the experience of the same amount of tests for at least 8 years.

This is my point there is 2 groups of tracks there, but study is results for me there is no real difference in them. Surely if what you saying is true he should be having far more success at the tracks he spends more time on.

I agree with on Elias I to do like him, I am always very skeptical of practice and Quali times, only time we are gonna know about hayden is about lap 10 of Race day (hope you think of me then). wee shall see

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>It is true that Nicky and Edwards have superior knowledge of Laguna, but couldn't it also be argued that teams that test extensively at certain tracks have a similar advantage? Ducati at Mugello. Also, there were between 9 and 11 riders on the grid that had ridden the Laguna Seca circuit before so you can't argue that Hayden and Edwards had far more knowledge than anyone. There was a reason for Bayliss and Biaggi's impressive performance.

Yes you could argue that, however I would have to add to that Ducati are new to GP Honda are not. I see Ducati with Bridgestone are either going to be at the rear of the top group or dominating the top group due to tyres. Bayliss did show one of his better performances this year at Laguna, but sadly is off the pace. And Max well he is an enigma really, ya just can't get a gauge off him on anything he's all over the place.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>it took Doohan 4 years to nab his first win.

Yeah good point

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>I'm sorry that you don't rate the AMA, BSB or WSB. All three of these series have bread or are currently breeding MotoGP contenders. There is much talk of Ryuchi Kiyonari of BSB joining MotoGP in the next few seasons, Chris Vermeulen of WSB is rumored to receive a Honda seat in 2007, and Jason Disavlo, Ben Spies and Roger Hayden of the AMA are all tipped to be future MotoGP riders. At the moment the talent level in each series is nowhere near MotoGP, but each series is a breeding ground for future MotoGP champions.

Well I'll explain how SB sits with me. I've NEVER seen a WSB come accross to MotoGP and succeed (challenge for a championship or even look like challenging) please jump on me if I've missed someone. Now I do rate WSB's but not just for the last few years when it was just a Ducati vs Ducati affair it is vastly improved this year. Now I definatly rate BSB and AMA below WSB for the reason been as there has been riders go from one to the other, and IMHO WSB riders appear superior. For me a rider coming from any SB series is gonna have to be pretty special to be a contender in MotoGP, all those riders you have mentioned sorry don't rate up there in that category.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>Hayden may fade at the end of races, but please name another rider who can consistantly stick with Rossi at the front. Gibernau may stick with him, I'll admit Gibernau is faster than any man on the grid barring Rossi when he is on, but Gibernau hasn't had his head straight since Jerez. He hasn't shown me this season that he has what it takes. You could argue Capirossi's form of late shows he can stay with Rossi, but what about the first 11 rounds when he finished no higher than 6th barring his third place at his home round of Mugello. That certainly doesn't count for consistancy. What about Melandri? He had an impressive first half of the season showing Rossi a wheel occasionally but he hasn't scored a podium finish since Assen.

Nah no one can consistantly match him, I rate Gibbers the highest. Capparossi at the moment you can put down to tyres its the only thing thats changed, the other Bridgestone runners have improved as well.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>What I'm trying to say is no rider is consistantly challenging Rossi and to single out Hayden is a bit harsh. If anything he has been one of the most consistant front runners all season

What I am trying to say is I see endless dribble on here about how good Hayden is, I don't agree and I have fronted with all my reasons why, which I happen to think stack up pretty well to yours ( but I would say that ) I don't think I have singled out Hayden if anyone else want's to spout off about a rider, fair enough but you better have the oil to back it up. I think a bit of patriotism is clouding your judgement but nothing wrong with that.

Cheers Mate

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>This is my point there is 2 groups of tracks there, but study is results for me there is no real difference in them. Surely if what you saying is true he should be having far more success at the tracks he spends more time on.

I haven't had a close look at his lap times but remembering his results vaguely I see your point, there is little difference in his results between tracks he has tested more at then those he has tested very little at.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>Well I'll explain how SB sits with me. I've NEVER seen a WSB come accross to MotoGP and succeed (challenge for a championship or even look like challenging) please jump on me if I've missed someone. Now I do rate WSB's but not just for the last few years when it was just a Ducati vs Ducati affair it is vastly improved this year. Now I definatly rate BSB and AMA below WSB for the reason been as there has been riders go from one to the other, and IMHO WSB riders appear superior. For me a rider coming from any SB series is gonna have to be pretty special to be a contender in MotoGP, all those riders you have mentioned sorry don't rate up there in that category.

To my knowledge you haven't missed anyone. However, there have been very few SBK riders that had enough success to be considered 'SBK riders' that have made the jump to MotoGP. Many SBK riders made the jump to 125s, 250s or 500s early in their careers and for whatever reason it didn't work so they jumped back to SBK. Troy Bayliss, Colin Edwards and Nicky Hayden are the first established SBK riders to make the jump to MotoGP. This is uncharted territory. Please remind me if I am forgetting anyone that has tried to make the jump in the past.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>Nah no one can consistantly match him, I rate Gibbers the highest. Capparossi at the moment you can put down to tyres its the only thing thats changed, the other Bridgestone runners have improved as well.

I can't argue with your opinions on Gibernau but I will agree with you about Capirossi. He is on superb form at the moment but I feel much of it can be attributed to Bridgestone's revival in the Asian rounds.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>What I am trying to say is I see endless dribble on here about how good Hayden is, I don't agree and I have fronted with all my reasons why, which I happen to think stack up pretty well to yours ( but I would say that  ) I don't think I have singled out Hayden if anyone else want's to spout off about a rider, fair enough but you better have the oil to back it up. I think a bit of patriotism is clouding your judgement but nothing wrong with that.

There is quite a bit of hype behind Hayden, maybe it's because he is a fan favorite. I don't know. You have brought some very valid points but I feel I have as well, it appears to be a stalemate. Patriotism may be clouding my judgement, he was the first racer I ever watched and I followed every season of his SBK career into the present in MotoGP. He's my boy, what can I say? But honestly, who was the last American rider us yanks could get excited about? It's been a long time since Kevin Schwantz has been racing. No offense KRjr and Hopper.

Xb don't get too upset now, I love John and if he were on a better bike I would be just as excited for him as I am Nicky.

Thanks for a good debate Marbs, cheers mate.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>I don't know. You have brought some very valid points but I feel I have as well, it appears to be a stalemate.

You most certainly have, a truely most informative discussion, sounds like a stalemate to me, I'll buy ya beer a mate, nothing like having a bit of passion for a rider.

There was an earlier WSB rider went to MotoGP an American Kosinski (speeling) didn't do much good.

Cheers Mate

Nice debate there chaps..............I'm knackered just readin it