MotoGP: Aragón RACE

You guys are aware this is racing and not driving around on public streets aren't you?


 


Far worse happens but because its the new "good thing" you are having a huge dummy spit about it.

barbedwirebiker

3624911380890666

I believe that if it was the other way round, I would be of the same opinion. An anamoloy occurring from a minor incidence. Marquez does have some questions that need to be answered concerning his racecraft though.

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With respect, this is also irrelevant which is why I didn't bring it up. I do give MM credit for not being a hypocrite, I don't recall him ever complaining about the behaviour of other riders.


 


I am well aware of the adage to the effect that "talent does what it can, genius does what it must", however as I have said I wasn't a Senna fan either. I had little against MM prior to the Willairot incident, but found that incident totally indefensible whilst continuing to argue against the cheater moto 2 engine hypothesis.


 


If he wants to take more risks than his rivals good luck to him if it only affects him. If he is in front he can choose whatever line and braking point he likes, as is accepted in most forms of racing. It is simply unfair to do so when you are behind though, or so I have believed since I started following motor racing seriously in my early teens. Valentino Rossi, at the very least equal to MM in terms of stupendous talent I would have thought, managed to race with similar aggression but also safely with very few exceptions over a very long career. 

BarryMachine

3624951380892077

You guys are aware this is racing and not driving around on public streets aren't you?


 


Far worse happens but because its the new "good thing" you are having a huge dummy spit about it.

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I take it you think Stoner was a ...... for complaining about unsafe riding then.

michaelm

3624961380892698

With respect, this is also irrelevant which is why I didn't bring it up. I do give MM credit for not being a hypocrite, I don't recall him ever complaining about the behaviour of other riders.

 

I am well aware of the adage to the effect that "talent does what it can, genius does what it must", however as I have said I wasn't a Senna fan either. I had little against MM prior to the Willairot incident, but found that incident totally indefensible whilst continuing to argue against the cheater moto 2 engine hypothesis.

 

If he wants to take more risks than his rivals good luck to him, and if he is in front he can choose whatever line and braking point he likes, as is accepted in most forms of racing. It is simply unfair to do so when you are behind though, or so I have believed since I started following motor racing seriously in my early teens. Valentino Rossi, at the very least equal to MM in terms of stupendous talent I would have thought, managed to race with similar aggression but also safely with very few exceptions over a very long career. 

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My comment was in response to red. Its relevant to his comment.

michaelm

3624971380892889

I take it you think Stoner was a ...... for complaining about unsafe riding then.

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Get real Michael, clipping another riders bike in close cornering ( where their speed differential is say <5kph ) is not a rare occurrence


 


In the old two stroke days having your throttle cable pulled out of its housing was something to be wary of ..... I'm sure some guys did it on purpose too. Problem solved with better fitments and when 4 strokes came along they had return cable so it wasn't a problem.


 


Other problems such as


 


Bars caught


levers caught


gear levers broken


John Behrens here got his own leg caught and broken when it went in between the rear subframe and the wheel.


I can remember one guy getting caught in between the front wheel and exhaust of an opponents bike flipping both of them off and leaving him with bad burns.


 


Remember Rossi leaning on Lorenzo at Motegi??? thats far worse. ,,,,,,, because .......... it was intentional.

BarryMachine

3624991380893502

Get real Michael, clipping another riders bike in close cornering ( where their speed differential is say <5kph ) is not a rare occurrence

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Stoner managed not to do it for 6 years, 4 of them on a Ducati rather than an HRC bike, with the exception of the pass on Bautista which I don't defend but during which he had sufficient control not to take Bautista out imo. If it is common it is among backmarkers attempting to outride their equipment, and in the junior classes, not among his peers in the premier class.  It is not as though he doesn't have enough bike under him.


 


Why does MM need to brake so late when close behind other riders? As I said if he is careless of consequences for himself that is his choice, but there is quite a pattern of behaviour which suggests he is careless of consequences for others as well. 

michaelm

3625001380893896

Stoner managed not to do it for 6 years, with the exception of the pass on Bautista which I don't defend but in which imo he had sufficient control not to take Bautista out.


 


Why does MM need to brake so late when close behind other riders? In this instance no pass was feasible.

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Does he?


 


So what if he does!!??? Whats wrong with that?

BarryMachine

3625021380894496

Does he?


 


So what if he does!!??? Whats wrong with that?

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Because there is no point doing so unless to indimidate the other rider when a pass is not on, which it wasn't in this instance, and because the risk is much more to the leading rider who can't possibly predict or allow for any mistakes by the following rider, since gp bikes don't have rear vision mirrors or cameras as far as I am aware.  Perhaps they could just have a Marquez rule that no-one is allowed to be in front of him.

michaelm

3625031380895562

Because there is no point doing so unless to indimidate the other rider when a pass is not on, which it wasn't in this instance, and because the risk is much more to the leading rider who can't possibly predict or allow for any mistakes by the following rider.  Perhaps they could just have a Marquez rule that no-one is allowed to be in front of him.

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I would think if that was not already a rule ( to Marc ) then WTF is he doing in GP!!?? In any race for that matter


 


Track rides/days are not like racing.


 


Don't ever line up 30 bikes across and go for a first corner thats about 4 metres wide will you now Mick :lol: :lol: :lol:

BarryMachine

3625041380896073

I would think if that was not already a rule ( to Marc ) then WTF is he doing in GP!!?? In any race for that matter


 


Track rides/days are not like racing.

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How do you think Stoner would have reacted to this incident? We both already know; you can refresh your memory by looking at the Jerez 2011 race video if need be.


 


To anticipate your possible reply, I tend to think MM wouldn't complain too much if the circumstances were reversed. Oddly, the circumstances don't seem to be frequently reversed in his case, which is rather my point..

michaelm

3625031380895562

Because there is no point doing so unless to indimidate the other rider when a pass is not on, which it wasn't in this instance, and because the risk is much more to the leading rider who can't possibly predict or allow for any mistakes by the following rider, since gp bikes don't have rear vision mirrors or cameras as far as I am aware.  Perhaps they could just have a Marquez rule that no-one is allowed to be in front of him.

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How many times do we hear a commentator saying rider x is putting pressure on rider y trying to force him into a mistake, riding close and making your presence felt used to be part of GP racing, as I said to Jumkie, go and look at Schwantz and co, MM is doing the same. he made a small mistake, you and the murder mark squad need to take a step back and get things in perspective, 

he arrived too fast and took evasive action, successfully I would say - successful insofar that he chose the outside consciously accepting his disadvantage instead of taking the inside à la Capirossi/Harada (or Pedrosa/Hayden for that matter). 'saving' a situation like this in a manner that includes only a very soft brush of your opponents bike is as good as it can be, that the 'brush' affected some stupid cable is as bad as an everyday situation like this might become. it's racing, it's bad luck, period.


 


if you are so keen on discussing about MM's quantity of near collisions with his peers, why don't you discuss ....... Tilke's race track designs that have tarmac run-offs instead of gravel, which allow for such dangerous riding in the first place?! if there is one foot deep of sand, stones and pain beyond the track boundary instead of the very same material you are running on already. the riders might consider their ultra late braking attitude differently when the outcome is 'race over' vs. 'let's try again in a lap or two when I made up the 5 tenths I lost by running off track once again'.

barbedwirebiker

3624911380890666

I believe that if it was the other way round, I would be of the same opinion. An anamoloy occurring from a minor incidence. Marquez does have some questions that need to be answered concerning his racecraft though.

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Fair play to you. However I think you would be in the minority.


How would you recommend employing the questions and what punishment would you give if any?


I seem to remember Jorge been wild till he got a race ban, even he has said he didn't listen till then.


Sound familiar?

sewarion

3625121380904552

he arrived too fast and took evasive action, successfully I would say - successful insofar that he chose the outside consciously accepting his disadvantage instead of taking the inside à la Capirossi/Harada (or Pedrosa/Hayden for that matter). 'saving' a situation like this in a manner that includes only a very soft brush of your opponents bike is as good as it can be, that the 'brush' affected some stupid cable is as bad as an everyday situation like this might become. it's racing, it's bad luck, period.


 


if you are so keen on discussing about MM's quantity of near collisions with his peers, why don't you discuss ....... Tilke's race track designs that have tarmac run-offs instead of gravel, which allow for such dangerous riding in the first place?! if there is one foot deep of sand, stones and pain beyond the track boundary instead of the very same material you are running on already. the riders might consider their ultra late braking attitude differently when the outcome is 'race over' vs. 'let's try again in a lap or two when I made up the 5 tenths I lost by running off track once again'.

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First paragraph I disagree with.


Bad luck just happens, this was caused!


 


Second Paragraph I agree with totally

thedeal

3625061380898884

How many times do we hear a commentator saying rider x is putting pressure on rider y trying to force him into a mistake, riding close and making your presence felt used to be part of GP racing, as I said to Jumkie, go and look at Schwantz and co, MM is doing the same. he made a small mistake, you and the murder mark squad need to take a step back and get things in perspective, 

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I watched all those races. They showed each other a wheel, they were happy to rub fairings in passing manoeuvres, but largely didn't take each other out. I think Doohan took Lawson out by a bad error once, early in his career, which I don't specifically recall, perhaps because like you I am wont to airbrush out events unfavourable to my hero, Mick being one of my biggest heroes. I presume you followed GP racing in the Doohan vs Criville era if you are so familiar with how Schwantz operated. If you didn't or have forgotten, find the footage of the time when Mick, who pretty well defined bloody mindedness imo, deliberately let Alex Criville run into him, taking them both out. The ensuing confrontation in the pits is most amusing.


 


Iin this case DP has no way of knowing he is there, they don't have rear vision mirrors to my knowledge as I have said, and no reason to expect him to be there, because as MM demonstrated he wasn't in a position to get close to Dani on any line that would keep him on the track. The intimidation involved relates only to knowing he stays too close in general in such situations and if he makes a small mistake is liable to take you or both him and you out, with the odds on his side because he can choose his point or take evasive action.

michaelm

3625331380929563

I watched all those races. They showed each other a wheel, they were happy to rub fairings in passing manoeuvres, but largely didn't take each other out. I think Doohan took Lawson out by a bad error once, early in his career, which I don't specifically recall, perhaps because like you I am wont to airbrush out events unfavourable to my hero, Mick being one of my biggest heroes. I presume you followed GP racing in the Doohan vs Criville era if you are so familiar with how Schwantz operated. If you didn't or have forgotten, find the footage of the time when Mick, who pretty well defined bloody mindedness imo, deliberately let Alex Criville run into him, taking them both out. The ensuing confrontation in the pits is most amusing.


 


Iin this case DP has no way of knowing he is there, they don't have rear vision mirrors to my knowledge as I have said, and no reason to expect him to be there, because as MM demonstrated he wasn't in a position to get close to Dani on any line that would keep him on the track. The intimidation involved relates only to knowing he stays too close in general in such situations and if he makes a small mistake is liable to take you or both him and you out, with the odds on his side because he can choose his point or take evasive action.

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Yes I have been watching since the 70s, you are missing the point, Kevin was so on the edge he pitched it down the road at an alarming rate, how no one was killed by that flying Suzuki is a miracle, now do you get it? riders who are prepared to ride on the edge make mistakes, and while watching Kevin, Randy and especially Wayne Gardener, we marvelled at this on the edge bravery, we didn't shout and scream and call for them to be banned if they touched another rider during a fight, and this is the point, MM only touched Danny, he did not take him out, if the sensor had not been damaged this thread would not exist, it was a mistake by a rider trying very hard, if this is no longer excepted then GP racing as we knew it is well and truly dead.

thedeal

3625341380931678

Yes I have been watching since the 70s, you are missing the point, Kevin was so on the edge he pitched it down the road at an alarming rate, how no one was killed by that flying Suzuki is a miracle, now do you get it? riders who are prepared to ride on the edge make mistakes, and while watching Kevin, Randy and especially Wayne Gardener, we marvelled at this on the edge bravery, we didn't shout and scream and call for them to be banned if they touched another rider during a fight, and this is the point, MM only touched Danny, he did not take him out, if the sensor had not been damaged this thread would not exist, it was a mistake by a rider trying very hard, if this is no longer excepted then GP racing as we knew it is well and truly dead.

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Completely agree


It's only been since the nanny boys Jorge, Dani and Stoner have come through that they ..... and moan about good hard racing. Whilst there is arguement to support safety always, in this case, you can only blame the ridiculous electronics made necessary by fuel, tyre and engine limits. Riders need more control, this is all to be concluded here.

thedeal

3625341380931678

Yes I have been watching since the 70s, you are missing the point, Kevin was so on the edge he pitched it down the road at an alarming rate, how no one was killed by that flying Suzuki is a miracle, now do you get it? riders who are prepared to ride on the edge make mistakes, and while watching Kevin, Randy and especially Wayne Gardener, we marvelled at this on the edge bravery, we didn't shout and scream and call for them to be banned if they touched another rider during a fight, and this is the point, MM only touched Danny, he did not take him out, if the sensor had not been damaged this thread would not exist, it was a mistake by a rider trying very hard, if this is no longer excepted then GP racing as we knew it is well and truly dead.

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Again, it is specifically this sort of thing Doohan objected to in Criville, not to him actually making a hard pass, and please give me examples of Dani complaining about actually being passed by MM. MM is very different to and imo much better than Criville, and a great and very decisive passer on a bike which allows such passing, although he was equally good on a moto2 bike with no bike advantage over the field.


 


I don't see how this relates to staying so close behind a leading rider in a place where he can't pass which gives the leading rider no opportunity to react or respond if he makes a mistake. People can do what they like in actual passing manoeuvres as far as I am concerned as long as it involves a line feasible for staying on the track and not pushing other riders off the track. If you think the latter is legitimate, as I have said earlier in the thread there is a motor racing series called V8 supercars which will likely suit your tastes.

Talpa

3625371380933668

Completely agree


It's only been since the nanny boys Jorge, Dani and Stoner have come through that they ..... and moan about good hard racing. Whilst there is arguement to support safety always, in this case, you can only blame the ridiculous electronics made necessary by fuel, tyre and engine limits. Riders need more control, this is all to be concluded here.

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We all know that  your view on these matters, and on matters of bike riding safety in general,  is dependent on whether you like the rider involved or not. I remember scores of posts based entirely on very unlikely chains of consequence about how dangerous a rider Casey Stoner was, in the face of him taking no other rider out whilst on a factory bike in the last 6 years of his premier class career,  despite 4 of these years being on a Ducati no-one else could ride including your boy, and for the last 2 years of that 4 having at least as big a comparative disadvantage as Kevin mostly had riding a Suzuki.

michaelm

3625331380929563

If you didn't or have forgotten, find the footage of the time when Mick, who pretty well defined bloody mindedness imo, deliberately let Alex Criville run into him, taking them both out. The ensuing confrontation in the pits is most amusing.

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Eastern Creek?