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MotoGP 2013: Sachsenring, Build up (spoilers) Practice (spoilers) Qualifying (spoilers) Bautista (sp

J4rn0, because that was not the implication. It wasnt some injury DocC referenced (im just going by ur reporting of it here). He was basically saying, 'Theres nothing physically stopping Pedro from racing, its just in his mind.' (And he wasnt talking about an accute brain injury. ) Honestly I dont understand why ur defending Dr.C. Can u post a quote please. I'd like to know what exactly was said. Maybe something was lost in translation.
 
J4rn0
3562271373924265

I really do not understand why a psychological trauma is something shameful, that should be kept secret, while a more physical one can be published on the net, like in the case of Smith's finger, with no one raising a highbrow... My dear friends, go see a shrink... ;)


 


Who says he has psychological trauma? That's the whole point.
 
stiefel
3561951373895525

  

There was nothing professional about it. It's not his expertise, and even if it were, it is incredibly unproffesional to make public statements about it.


Personally I think this all a tempest in a teapot. If rider is in pain having experienced an injury to his collarbone (the same bone that badly affected his


chances of winning in a previous season) and is suffering from low blood pressure and concussion - then it stands to reason that he would not be


feeling mentally confident. It's not such a stretch to think he might be feeling less than optimal emotionally. I doubt Costa meant to imply much more


than that. I'd pretty much bet money that Costa has been mis-quoted so ..... journos could have a field day over unimportant remark.
 
Perhaps. Thats why I asked for a link. A quote. Context. Hell, for all I know it might be one of J4rn0s imaginations again. U know, like Ducati not doing anything particularly exclusive to help Rossi.
 
Jumkie
3562191373918773

I honestly don't know if he was "diagnosed" with one and made public.  I'm not a doctor, but I just have a hunch.


 


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The reason  i ask was i read one quote that specifically stated he had not suffered a concussion
 
Jumkie
3562331373926647



J4rn0, because that was not the implication. It wasnt some injury DocC referenced (im just going by ur reporting of it here). He was basically saying, 'Theres nothing physically stopping Pedro from racing, its just in his mind.' (And he wasnt talking about an accute brain injury. ) Honestly I dont understand why ur defending Dr.C. Can u post a quote please. I'd like to know what exactly was said. Maybe something was lost in translation.
No Jum, he said THEREIS something stopping Pedro, and that's serious although it is more a psychological than a physical state of shock. It is something I heard, so cannot quote literally, but that's the meaning. Didn't see it published anywhere yet, but magazines are coming out today and tomorrow in Italy, maybe someone picked it up.
 
Keshav
3562401373931221

Personally I think this all a tempest in a teapot. If rider is in pain having experienced an injury to his collarbone (the same bone that badly affected his

chances of winning in a previous season) and is suffering from low blood pressure and concussion - then it stands to reason that he would not be

feeling mentally confident. It's not such a stretch to think he might be feeling less than optimal emotionally. I doubt Costa meant to imply much more

than that. I'd pretty much bet money that Costa has been mis-quoted so ..... journos could have a field day over unimportant remark.
Doctors had cleared Pedro for warmup, so that would rule out concussion I'd think. But before warmup he felt kind of weak or dizzy, they went to his motorhome and verified a low blood pressure. This was reported by the daily Gazzetta dello Sport yesterday.
 
 <blockquote class="ipsBlockquote1373924265
356227" data-author="J4rn0

I really do not understand
I doubt that. I think you're smart enough to understand very well what me and some other here find objectionable.<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote1373924265
356227" data-author="J4rn0

why a psychological trauma is something shameful, that should be kept secret, while a more physical one can be published on the net, like in the case of Smith's finger, with no one raising a highbrow... My dear friends, go see a shrink... ;)
You're trying to attribute a point to your opposition that was not raised, presumably in an effort to divert the debate from the appropriateness of Dr. Costa's behavior to assumed attitudes of other posters towards psychological trauma. I would not have expected you to turn to taking cheap shots.
 
 <blockquote class="ipsBlockquote1373931221
356240" data-author="Keshav

Personally I think this all a tempest in a teapot. If rider is in pain having experienced an injury to his collarbone (the same bone that badly affected his
chances of winning in a previous season) and is suffering from low blood pressure and concussion - then it stands to reason that he would not be
feeling mentally confident. It's not such a stretch to think he might be feeling less than optimal emotionally. I doubt Costa meant to imply much more
than that. I'd pretty much bet money that Costa has been mis-quoted so ..... journos could have a field day over unimportant remark.
Perhaps, you probably hold him in higher regards than I do. The question remains though, should he know better than to say such things?
 
stiefel
3562571373959682

 Perhaps, you probably hold him in higher regards than I do. The question remains though, should he know better than to say such things?


Perhaps we are overblowing this (or I am anyway), and it was a throwaway remark which didn't have the force we are perceiving it to have in the original Italian. As I said, my friend who has held much higher official positions than Dr Costa would not, I believe, have said something like this, but perhaps Dr Costa's  point is really that from his point of view the fracture was only a minor one/a crack (it was apparently only detected by a CT scan and not by the initial X-ray) and not something which he considers would be sufficient on its own to stop Dani from riding.


 


However it is Dani's clavicle, and given what Dani has been through with clavicular injuries and surgeries in the past, and what has just happened to Jorge, especially if he was feeling poorly otherwise he has probably imo pulled the right rein, particularly with Jorge also out for the race and perhaps for more races in the future. He is just coming up to the series of races/tracks which particularly suited him/the Honda last year and which he dominated then, and if he can't pull back 2 points from MM in his rookie year then MM deserves to win anyway.


 


I do see some ethical dilemmas in general in regard to professional sportsmen and their relationship with doctors who are also employees of their employers, and think for instance that Stoner was entirely entitled to seek his own medical advice and treatment in 2009, whatever the motogp or Ducati doctors may have said, since it eventuated they had not been able to diagnose a medical illness, not entirely surprisingly since they are mostly orthopaedic surgeons. I see bigger problems with such sportsmen as footballers, basketballers, baseballers etc with their livelihoods and professional futures and the success of their teams both dependent on injuries, with the injuries often having occurred in the service of the team, and with short term and longterm consequences possibly at variance. 
 
 <blockquote class="ipsBlockquote1373966109
356268" data-author="michaelm

Perhaps we are overblowing this (or I am anyway), and it was a throwaway remark which didn't have the force we are perceiving it to have in the original Italian.
Perhaps, but as I have mentioned previously in this thread, it's not the first time, and other examples are not as easy to attribute to mere lost-in-translation issues.
 
michaelm
3562681373966109

Perhaps we are overblowing this (or I am anyway), and it was a throwaway remark which didn't have the force we are perceiving it to have in the original Italian. As I said, my friend who has held much higher official positions than Dr Costa would not, I believe, have said something like this, but perhaps Dr Costa's  point is really that from his point of view the fracture was only a minor one/a crack (it was apparently only detected by a CT scan and not by the initial X-ray) and not something which he considers would be sufficient on its own to stop Dani from riding.

 

However it is Dani's clavicle, and given what Dani has been through with clavicular injuries and surgeries in the past, and what has just happened to Jorge, especially if he was feeling poorly otherwise he has probably imo pulled the right rein, particularly with Jorge also out for the race and perhaps for more races in the future. He is just coming up to the series of races/tracks which particularly suited him/the Honda last year and which he dominated then, and if he can't pull back 2 points from MM in his rookie year then MM deserves to win anyway.

 

I do see some ethical dilemmas in general in regard to professional sportsmen and their relationship with doctors who are also employees of their employers, and think for instance that Stoner was entirely entitled to seek his own medical advice and treatment in 2009, whatever the motogp or Ducati doctors may have said, since it eventuated they had not been able to diagnose a medical illness, not entirely surprisingly since they are mostly orthopaedic surgeons. I see bigger problems with such sportsmen as footballers, basketballers, baseballers etc with their livelihoods and professional futures and the success of their teams both dependent on injuries, with the injuries often having occurred in the service of the team, and with short term and longterm consequences possibly at variance. 


Overblowing it or not, that is an insightful post. Particularly the references to other sporting endeavours.

Thanks, michaelm.
 
Dr No
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Who says he has psychological trauma? That's the whole point.


 


Exactly. Did he really hit his head on the ground or only imagine it? Actually hitting his head is physical trauma. Imagining he hit his head is psychological. Surprised Dr Costa doesnt seem to understand the difference. Shame on him.
 
stiefel
3562561373959514

 I doubt that. I think you're smart enough to understand very well what me and some other here find objectionable.You're trying to attribute a point to your opposition that was not raised, presumably in an effort to divert the debate from the appropriateness of Dr. Costa's behavior to assumed attitudes of other posters towards psychological trauma. I would not have expected you to turn to taking cheap shots.


 


<span style="font-size:14px;Great. So you tell me, why physical traumas have been exposed and even exhibited graphically without any reservation whatsoever, whereas even the mention of a possible psychological trauma is found objectionable?  
 
J4rn0
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<span style="font-size:14px;Great. So you tell me, why physical traumas have been exposed and even exhibited graphically without any reservation whatsoever, whereas even the mention of a possible psychological trauma is found objectionable?  


No. Because I have already brought up my concerns as clear as I think I can word them in this thread. Which means either I am unable to explain them to you sufficiently, or you are unable or unwilling to grasp them. I'll leave it to you to decide which one applies.
 
So, Dani is holding off making a decision to go to Laguna until Thursday, now Lorenzo is going to be there surely that has to be putting pressure on him to go even if he doesn't feel completely up to it.


 


Oh and as I have stated before, it's widely regarded that a lot of sport is in the mind and about mental attitude, if you aren't focused and in the right frame of mind you won't do any good. If Dani is doubting himself and even nervous or scared (for want of a better term) of getting on the bike again it would be best for all concerned he doesn't race.
 
stiefel
3563941374071942

No. Because I have already brought up my concerns as clear as I think I can word them in this thread. Which means either I am unable to explain them to you sufficiently, or you are unable or unwilling to grasp them. I'll leave it to you to decide which one applies.


 


Great.
 
J4rn0
3563901374070801

<span style="font-size:14px;Great. So you tell me, why physical traumas have been exposed and even exhibited graphically without any reservation whatsoever, whereas even the mention of a possible psychological trauma is found objectionable?  


 


The mention of psychological trauma is no problem at all as long as Pedrosa underwent a suitable psychological assessment and subsequently agreed to make that information available to the public. I for one would not think any less of him for developing some paranoia over further injury and therefore choosing not to ride. But from where I sit that is pure speculation.


 


While I am a mere spectator, Dr Costa is acting in some sort of official role. He is a doctor. What he says can be used for advantage by competitors. Have you forgotten the psychological war Rossi waged with Biaggi over many years? If you were Biaggi, would you be happy with private information between you and your doctor being given to the public, given to your arch enemy and competition in the proccess? Thats my issue, the officials are supposed to be impartial. Whether its Costa or Ezpeleta I dont want them playing any part or influence in the competition.


 


Are all injuries the same? Not all parts of the body are created equal. Some injuries cannot be hidden. You fall off a bike, grab your leg, its dangling. Everyone knows its broken. What if you take a fall and lose a testicle. Do you want the motogp official medical staff making that information public without your consent? Ask Bayliss I suppose. Say you sever your ...... Is that the same as breaking a collarbone, simple physical trauma? So not all injuries can be treated the same.
 
birdman
3564441374102478

The mention of psychological trauma is no problem at all as long as Pedrosa underwent a suitable psychological assessment and subsequently agreed to make that information available to the public. I for one would not think any less of him for developing some paranoia over further injury and therefore choosing not to ride. But from where I sit that is pure speculation.

 

While I am a mere spectator, Dr Costa is acting in some sort of official role. He is a doctor. What he says can be used for advantage by competitors. Have you forgotten the psychological war Rossi waged with Biaggi over many years? If you were Biaggi, would you be happy with private information between you and your doctor being given to the public, given to your arch enemy and competition in the proccess? Thats my issue, the officials are supposed to be impartial. Whether its Costa or Ezpeleta I dont want them playing any part or influence in the competition.

 

Are all injuries the same? Not all parts of the body are created equal. Some injuries cannot be hidden. You fall off a bike, grab your leg, its dangling. Everyone knows its broken. What if you take a fall and lose a testicle. Do you want the motogp official medical staff making that information public without your consent? Ask Bayliss I suppose. Say you sever your ...... Is that the same as breaking a collarbone, simple physical trauma? So not all injuries can be treated the same.


This is what I basically think also.

 

Everyone knows bike racing is a dangerous sport and injuries are expected. The psychological trauma/psychological weakness thing however gets to the heart of ability/competitiveness as a rider when uninjured, and the ascribing of psychological problems/gleeful gloating about Stoner being "broken" by Rossi in 2009, which turned out to be completely incorrect, seriously affected his career, basically ending his relationship with Ducati, and by his own testimony attitudes to his illness in 2009 were what mainly disenchanted him with the sport leading to his retirement. As you say it also could give an edge to rivals, with comments regarding Biaggi apparently an example if correctly ascribed.

 

If Dr Costa's point was that the clavicle fracture was a fairly minor one and not in his professional opinion enough to stop Dani racing on its own then that is perhaps a valid comment. I don't otherwise see the need to invoke psychological issues when the video evidence of the massive highside Dani had is available for the world to see, and a CT scan showing a fracture of the clavicle also apparently exists. However many injured riders Dr Costa has seen, he is not the one who has to ride the bike after such a high-side, nor the one who has had his career substantially derailed by previous clavicle injuries and complications of surgery for same. Perhaps you can accuse Dani of lacking the last few percentage points of whatever it is that makes a premier class world champion, but I think it is hard to question his courage and endurance in the face of the very many injuries he has had, and his problem would seem to be one of physical rather than psychological frailty where injuries are concerned. 

 

As I have said, I don't recall Sid Watkins in a similar position ever saying anything like this, and I know my friend who has held the most senior medical position with FIFA would never say anything like this, and it conflicts with my notions of medical ethics anyway. If Dorna want a medical "expert" to add colour to the show, imo they should employ someone to do so, as TV stations covering AFL/Australian rules  football in Australia have sometimes done; it should not, again imo, be the same guy who is looking after the riders medically and hence in receipt of privileged information.    
 

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