Most Crashes in MotoGP?

BarryMachine · May 13, 2012

Shut up Arab, I'm busy reading a magazine on how to fly a jumbo.

I'm planning on drinking some Woods then watching a few internet videos on how to fly a jumbo too, cos I hear its the best way to learn anything!!

Arrabbiata1 · May 13, 2012

BarryMachine said:
Shut up Arab, I'm busy reading a magazine on how to fly a jumbo.

I'm planning on drinking some Woods then watching a few internet videos on how to fly a jumbo too, cos I hear its the best way to learn anything!!

Actually Levi-Garret already can - similarly there are several members on here that can back a bike in - but you never hear them claim to be able to do so behind the anonymity of an internet forum.

In point of fact, the basis of learning anything is instruction followed by reading and study which is precisely why The California Superbike School and the Twist of The Wrist series was so successful and help[ed so many aspiring racers.

I ride - I know what I am able to do on a bike, but more importantly I know what I can't and indeed what I'd like to be able to do. . I have unintentionally backed a motorcycle in - just as I have managed to powerslide on a circuit - but largely by serendipity and great good fortune that I didn't crash. Actually - it wasn't backing in because I wasn't fully in control. Indeed, several times I have braked so late that I have locked up the rear on the downshift which is precisely what you shouldn't do. My instructor on a particular track day told me to slow down to go faster and brake slightly earlier and progressively which sounds elementary but was a revelation. So go out and reproduce what your idol Casey does on a motorcycle - plain and simple...you can't, yet you tell us all incessantly about how he is doing it and the techniques he employs. What's the difference Barry?

Sometimes we can only watch and marvel. Tell me, (ignoring the stupid annotations in the clip), what techniques do you think Chris is harnessing to produce such incredible drift on the approach to this corner and if they are any different to the rudiments explained in the Michael Neeves video? How does it differ to your fabled approach to a corner?

http://youtu.be/qLfLUj6nZ5U

Now for the love of God...answer the original question.

Rising Sun · May 13, 2012

Having never followed the original discussion about 'backing in' I've always been curious as to what exactly was the point of contention. I'm not sure if getting in the middle of this ....-fight is such a good idea, but anyway...

Arrabbiata1 said:
You made a post some two years ago now stating that you were able to slide your Ducati routinely 'with ease' on public roads and 'on the approach to a turn' by simply closing the throttle and by body position alone. Many were left mystified as to how you accomplished this feat, and when questioned you branch off into the realms of powersliding which you still appear to be confusing with 'backing in' which is something completely different. We can quite happily discuss sliding as a separate issue - but the original contention concerned backing in.

I'm not sure if this is exactly the same thing or not, but I have seen something like this done--on bicycles. When I was a teenager I used to own two pushbikes. The first was an old hand-me down; a simple ten-speed frame with cowhorns (dragster-style handlebars) and what I know as 'pedal' brakes (i.e. you push the pedals backwards to stop the back wheel). Over time I got pretty good at 'stamping' on the pedal to skid into corners/to a stop. The second bike was a shiny new BMX with caliper brakes, front and back. I hated those brakes! I could never get the back wheel to skid 20-30 feet like I could with the first bike--I couldn't pull hard enough on the brake lever...

But I used to ride around with a group of friends on yet-to-be developed housing estates, creek trails and through paddocks with tracks made by dirt-bike riders. Sometimes not everyone had a bike and I'd lend one of mine. So, I'm following a friend riding my BMX one day and he does this huge skid into a corner; I was amazed. I asked him how he did it, thinking he must've grabbed that brake lever so hard. He said, "You don't use any brakes." I watched him again and again, and sure enough, he wasn't touching the brakes. He'd stop pedaling on approach, stand up (if he wasn't already) and... skid the back wheel into the corner. I can't really say what the front wheel was doing or much about his body position--I was always watching the skid/the fact that he wasn't using the brakes. I paid more attention to some of the other guys after that, and there were a few others who could do it as well. Of course I tried to learn it, but never came close to mastering it; I crashed a lot, usually over the highside. The friend who I saw skidding like that first always said it was because I was too used to using the pedal brake on my old bike to skid.

Now whether this can be transfered to much heavier motorcylces, at potentially much faster speeds and on a sealed surface I don't know--but the technique you outlined above, is, at least, physically possible.

Arrabbiata1 said:
Incidentally, your comment about Craig Jones was crass and ill informed. When I originally mentioned Craig as a foremost proponent of 'backing in' you had no idea who he was and no interest whatsoever. Once more you quickly resort to Wikki as the bluffer you are. Craig was tragically killed in a freak accident at Brands under acceleration out of Clark Curve - the rear came around and he was struck in the head by Andrew Pitt's front wheel.

I'm pretty sure Barry already knew who he was. After all, I really only follow the MotoGP circus, WSBK and JSBK (I haven't even kept up with Aus road racing since I moved back a couple of years ago!) and I knew who he was.

Also, it is important to note that Casey Stoner is legend... wait for it, wait for it... dairy!

truent · May 13, 2012

Interesting.. yeah i've "backed" it in.. but it was always from either downshifting (i blip the throttle while the clutch is in, so maybe a lil extra torque transferring to the rear wheel).. or stamping on the rear break and getting a skid.. either way the sensation was pretty similar.. but never from just turning, doesn't make much sense to me.. i used to be a bit uneasy with the sensation until i rode a dirt bike for a weekend, and after a fair romp with that thing, the ease in which you can go a bit beyond your own limit because of comfort with the rear sliding etc is truly amazing.. i understood the dirt training stuff that these guys do so much after having my own experience with the matter

chopperman · May 13, 2012

Rising Sun said:
Having never followed the original discussion about 'backing in' I've always been curious as to what exactly was the point of contention. I'm not sure if getting in the middle of this ....-fight is such a good idea, but anyway...

I'm not sure if this is exactly the same thing or not, but I have seen something like this done--on bicycles. When I was a teenager I used to own two pushbikes. The first was an old hand-me down; a simple ten-speed frame with cowhorns (dragster-style handlebars) and what I know as 'pedal' brakes (i.e. you push the pedals backwards to stop the back wheel). Over time I got pretty good at 'stamping' on the pedal to skid into corners/to a stop. The second bike was a shiny new BMX with caliper brakes, front and back. I hated those brakes! I could never get the back wheel to skid 20-30 feet like I could with the first bike--I couldn't pull hard enough on the brake lever...

But I used to ride around with a group of friends on yet-to-be developed housing estates, creek trails and through paddocks with tracks made by dirt-bike riders. Sometimes not everyone had a bike and I'd lend one of mine. So, I'm following a friend riding my BMX one day and he does this huge skid into a corner; I was amazed. I asked him how he did it, thinking he must've grabbed that brake lever so hard. He said, "You don't use any brakes." I watched him again and again, and sure enough, he wasn't touching the brakes. He'd stop pedaling on approach, stand up (if he wasn't already) and... skid the back wheel into the corner. I can't really say what the front wheel was doing or much about his body position--I was always watching the skid/the fact that he wasn't using the brakes. I paid more attention to some of the other guys after that, and there were a few others who could do it as well. Of course I tried to learn it, but never came close to mastering it; I crashed a lot, usually over the highside. The friend who I saw skidding like that first always said it was because I was too used to using the pedal brake on my old bike to skid.

Now whether this can be transfered to much heavier motorcylces, at potentially much faster speeds and on a sealed surface I don't know--but the technique you outlined above, is, at least, physically possible.

I'm pretty sure Barry already knew who he was. After all, I really only follow the MotoGP circus, WSBK and JSBK (I haven't even kept up with Aus road racing since I moved back a couple of years ago!) and I knew who he was.

Also, it is important to note that Casey Stoner is legend... wait for it, wait for it... dairy!

No, Barry machine is legend ! Dirt bike and speedway supremo. top that with his supernatural ability on his ducati and custom musical instrument design and production. I sometimes wonder where he gets the time to be on here pissing us off all the time.

Is there nothing Berry doesn't know or can do better than the worlds best?

chopperman · May 13, 2012

While on the subject of speedway. RIP Lee Richardson (Rico)

http://uk.eurosport....ash-poland.html

Jumkie · May 13, 2012

BarryMachine · May 14, 2012

Rising Sun said:
He'd stop pedaling on approach, stand up (if he wasn't already) and... skid the back wheel into the corner. I can't really say what the front wheel was doing or much about his body position--I was always watching the skid/the fact that he wasn't using the brakes. I paid more attention to some of the other guys after that, and there were a few others who could do it as well.

Was he also going what seemed ridiculously fast into the corner??

Its about loosing traction and with a lot of bravado and faith if you assist the rear wheel in losing traction, it only has one place to go, and when its on the verge of losing traction it takes a fly to land in the wrong place to lose the traction for you.

On a road bike if you approach a corner ridiculously fast then slow down fast the arse end is even in the air ......... you can downshift or hit the rear brake all you like and it does diddly .......... cos the back wheel is ...... a bit light

BarryMachine · May 14, 2012

chopperman said:
While on the subject of speedway. RIP Lee Richardson (Rico)

http://uk.eurosport....ash-poland.html

Damn shame.

33 and a dad too.

#22 · May 14, 2012

You're full of .... ~~bellend~~ Barrymachine. I used to race class 1 karts with high compression direct drive 2 stroke motors and tyres so hard they had the grip of plastic and not even they could get the back out without touching the brakes. And before you start, I know far far far more than you ever will about karts

BarryMachine · May 14, 2012

#22 said:
You're full of .... ~~bellend~~ Barrymachine. I used to race class 1 karts with high compression direct drive 2 stroke motors and tyres so hard they had the grip of plastic and not even they could get the back out without touching the brakes. And before you start, I know far far far more than you ever will about karts

......... You've never spun a kart out!!??

You may have raced them, but you weren't going fast enough, obviously

Better not get on the track with this little fella ....... he'd whoop your arse!

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3SCy5jJxlww[/media]

Is this a class 1? looks classy to me !!!

http://www.youtube.c...1&v=luOES6BJH08

oh yeah!!! now that would be fun.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_18T9OMvMA4&feature=related

#22 · May 14, 2012

Ya ya ya I don't react to what forum trolls say. I let my many wins and national titles talk for me. And you're showing me clips of karts on dirt? And the first clip, the kid is powersliding it ON THROTTLE not by backing off the throttle.

And as for saying i'm not that fast? I'll offer you the same troll challenge of SS56...come to a race and i'll shake your hand if you beat me.

BarryMachine · May 14, 2012

I'd love that really.

I'm in a reckless mood though.

The second clip isn't dirt! It just seems it with that amount of power

#22 · May 14, 2012

In a ..... mood more like

mt1960 · May 14, 2012

Well having ridden a shedload of stuff, including TZ700, superkarts, speedway bikes and sidecars, I can categorically state that I am crap on all of them.

Any resemblance to backing in has been promptly followed by backing it through the corner and out the other side in a direction and attitude not expected, wanted or very much of a surprise...

The most humiliating was crying like a baby after lying under a speedway bike and burning the crap out of my calf, that my mate's sister had just done about 40 practice laps on. She stood there laughing at me and told me to harden up

To be fair, she was a rather Amazonal Maori sheila...

That being said, I thrash a peewee 80 like a ............. riot!

Rising Sun · May 14, 2012

BarryMachine said:
Was he also going what seemed ridiculously fast into the corner??

Its about loosing traction and with a lot of bravado and faith if you assist the rear wheel in losing traction, it only has one place to go, and when its on the verge of losing traction it takes a fly to land in the wrong place to lose the traction for you.

Yeah, you had to be riding fast--it just wouldn't work otherwise. And you're right about needing bravado and faith... I was never really confident enough to 'throw it into the corner' and get the proper hang of it. The few times I could get some kind of skid happening the back wheel would suddenly bite again and send me flying. The fact that I never even 'lowsided' probably meant I wasn't trying hard enough.

Arrabbiata1 · May 14, 2012

BarryMachine said:
On a road bike if you approach a corner ridiculously fast then slow down fast the arse end is even in the air ......... you can downshift or hit the rear brake all you like and it does diddly .......... cos the back wheel is ...... a bit light

Your original description of your slides was indeed in reference to road bikes on a sealed surface - but 'backing in' per se is generally the preserve of racers and I've never seen anyone convincingly pull it off on the road with the exception of some very talented supermoto riders it's been my privilege to ride behind.

If the rear wheel is constantly elevated then why do the chief exponents of backing in leave huge black lines in their wake?

The point is, not to elevate the rear. In Moto GP where backing in is comparatively rare you will see the rear wheel skitter and hop under heavy front braking. Conversely watch the clip of Chris Vermeulen and the controlled drift as a consequence of the downshift. The rear wheel is travelling slightly slower than the front enabling the bike to execute a controlled slide - no elevation, the backing in is performed long before the entry to the turn and is more the product of controlled clutch feed and braking as it is the hard hard braking that you refer to. Certainly hard application of the front brake is vital to reduce the contact and lessen the traction of the rear - but crucially it is still in contact with the track surface. Ferocious more zealous backing in à la Craig Jones or Aaron Yates for example slews the bike sideways and you could hear the screech of the rear tyre. Very disconcerting to the competition. Watch Moto 2 - the likes of Pasini, Elias, Rea, Reading - it happens all the time.

chopperman · May 14, 2012

To back a bike in you really have to have belief in the front end and in yourself. The down shift will cause the rear wheel to rotate slower than the front which will cause the bike to rotate around the headstock i.e go sideways. You need belief in yourself because the technique will only work if you are going fast to carry the momentum. The back brake alone will not work in my experience because it will slow the whole bike i.e front and rear wheel to the same speed. Some riders use it to balance the bike some don't . Quite often you will find riders feel more confident doing it on left handers than right handers if they use rear brake and leg pointed toward front spindle technique because of the brake being on the left of the bike (you cant have your foot in 2 places at the same time).

Supermoto generally get a more dramatic sideways angle because of the amount of reverse steer and consequently lean angle achievable because of the geometry of the bikes. I found high-side less likely if you were carrying more speed and lean angle. i think the extra momentum and larger triangular pattern of the bikes wheels and rider makes it harder for the rear to re-gain grip, it sort of pushes the rear where as if your more up right you don't have the leverage to keep the rear pushing if that makes any sense.

Jumkie · May 14, 2012

Arrabi, I marvel your insisting to exchange this point with Barry. You could have simply said, Barry you're full of ...., and the argument would have been over as much as it is now.

But by all means, proceed. I'd say, out of this debate we've had what I consider the greatest series of posts you've ever typed in a thread long ago that put this debate to rest.

Barry, you're a .....

BarryMachine · May 15, 2012

Try it you lameass dicks, thats the easy answer. You wantme to agree to the lamest ... beginner view of a riding technique, and I cannot, because to go fast you would be nowhere doing what you guys are saying you do.

None of you have ever tried it in anger even, thats pretty damned obvious ........ again you are just reading a magazine and saying thats how it is

And remember race tracks have no speed signs so you are not going fast doing 100 in a 60 zone, you are oblivious to a speed limit, and are riding to where the bike is ready to let go.

Try it.

Most Crashes in MotoGP?

Help Support MotoGP Forum:

BarryMachine

Arrabbiata1

Blue Smoker

Rising Sun

truent

chopperman

chopperman

Jumkie

BarryMachine

BarryMachine

#22

BarryMachine

#22

BarryMachine

#22

mt1960

Rising Sun

Arrabbiata1

Blue Smoker

chopperman

Jumkie

BarryMachine

Similar threads

Recent Discussions

Recent Discussions