Michael Schumacher

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Valentino Is God @ Mar 16 2007, 05:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>agreed even if people do not share my opinion on Michael!

Continuing on...

What i was trying to say by including Fisi and Massa is that the stats show that as Massa beat Fisi in the WDC the ferrari was the better car over the course of the year, yet Alonso won the title in a Renault.
OR..Massa just did a very good job and Fisi didnt
We could turn it into our favour either way I guess, but fact is that renault won both titles and ferrari didnt, so saying Renault had a ''much worse'' car is simply NOT true.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Mar 16 2007, 05:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Perhaps Massa just drove better than Fisi. Afterall Renault took the constructors title to go with the drivers. I would so overall the renault was the better car last year, but in the second half of the season the Ferrari did catch up and eek ahead.
Agree with you Tom..

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Franco Fangio @ Mar 16 2007, 04:42 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Of course it's irrelevant, sorry, but come on now. Raikkonen isn't a complete driver like MS. And ''IF'' dont count. Raikkonen is just lazy, I wish he wasn't but he is, he will never be like MS. I don't think Kimi belongs in MS' league, and I'm a huge kimi fan...but I'm not blind.
The Fangio thing is also irrelevant, cause we're again assuming things..''what would MS have done back then??'' We don't know, we will never know..so..not irrelevant.

I never said Ferrari had a BAD car at the start of last year's season, I said renault had a better start, and that's a FACT. I think Fisi was just performing really bad, cause Renault did have a strong package! of course FA did beter than Fisi, but that's cause Fisi's not a winner and FA obviously is.
Yeah exactly, which is what i'm trying to tell him - MS and FA are in a different class than Massa and Fisi which is not what we're on about here.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Franco Fangio @ Mar 16 2007, 04:42 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Of course it's irrelevant, sorry, but come on now. Raikkonen isn't a complete driver like MS. And ''IF'' dont count. Raikkonen is just lazy, I wish he wasn't but he is, he will never be like MS. I don't think Kimi belongs in MS' league, and I'm a huge kimi fan...but I'm not blind.
The Fangio thing is also irrelevant, cause we're again assuming things..''what would MS have done back then??'' We don't know, we will never know..so..not irrelevant.

I never said Ferrari had a BAD car at the start of last year's season, I said renault had a better start, and that's a FACT. I think Fisi was just performing really bad, cause Renault did have a strong package! of course FA did beter than Fisi, but that's cause Fisi's not a winner and FA obviously is.

Raikkonen has never had the best car to show how good he is. In 2005 the McLaren was the fastest but unreliable - some say due to Kimi's driving but Montoya did not finish every race so i think that it was more the car than him.

Fisi is not a bad driver its just Alonso is better - to get to F1 you have to be pretty damn good.

Schumacher has never won many races in an inferior car.

Just to confirm i am not a Schumacher, Alonso, Fisichella or Raikkonen fan so i am NOT biased in that way.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Valentino Is God @ Mar 16 2007, 05:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Raikkonen has never had the best car to show how good he is. In 2005 the McLaren was the fastest but unreliable - some say due to Kimi's driving but Montoya did not finish every race so i think that it was more the car than him.

Fisi is not a bad driver its just Alonso is better - to get to F1 you have to be pretty damn good.

Schumacher has never won many races in an inferior car.

Just to confirm i am not a Schumacher, Alonso, Fisichella or Raikkonen fan so i am biased in that way.
True, Kimi never had the best car, but can you tell what that has to with MS being one of the greatest ever?? I'm a kimi fan, I wish he won at least one title, but so far, it wasnt meant to be. Hopefully he will win the title one day, cause I think he is champion worhty.

When I said Fisi performed ''bad, i didnt mean he's a bad driver. But it is a fact that he performed ''bad'' compared to FA. That was my point. I never thought Fisi was a bad driver, I think he's good actually, better than average maybe, but not a winner.

So, MS didn't win that many races in inferior car? Hmmm..ok, I think that goes for almost everyone, that's just f1, especially nowadays, if you dont have the best car, it will be hard. That's just the way it is.
Actually MS proved how good he is when he DID drive an inferior car. For example 96, ferrari was CRAP, he still managed to win 3 races I think.
In 97 the Ferrari was inferior to Williams, MS won races that season and he almost beat JV to take his 3rd title. So, dont even start about MS not winning a lot when he had an inferior car. Cause that's just not true man. Ow, I've seen dvds of MS driving the benetton in 92 and 93. He didnt have the best car back then, Williams was superior!!!! Still MS managed to win races in both 92 and 93. Especially Spa 92 was great. Dunno if you've seen it. So, MS also proved during his F1 career that he WAS ABLE to win races while having an inferior car.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Valentino Is God @ Mar 16 2007, 04:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Raikkonen has never had the best car to show how good he is. In 2005 the McLaren was the fastest but unreliable - some say due to Kimi's driving but Montoya did not finish every race so i think that it was more the car than him.

Raikonen may never have had the best car, but i wouldn't say he has always got the maximum from the vehicles he drives (something MS did). Kimi certainly could be a better development driver also. This year is his chance, if he doesn't take this title it will prove that he hasn't got what it takes. But this is off topic slightly.

My point is, Look at the affect MS had on Ferrari while he was there, and compare that to the difference Kimi has made at Mclaren. Says it all doesn't it.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Alex @ Mar 16 2007, 05:47 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Yeah exactly, which is what i'm trying to tell him - MS and FA are in a different class than Massa and Fisi which is not what we're on about here.
Yeah, exactly!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Mar 16 2007, 06:05 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Raikonen may never have had the best car, but i wouldn't say he has always got the maximum from the vehicles he drives (something MS did). Kimi certainly could be a better development driver also. This year is his chance, if he doesn't take this title it will prove that he hasn't got what it takes. But this is off topic slightly.

My point is, Look at the affect MS had on Ferrari while he was there, and compare that to the difference Kimi has made at Mclaren. Says it all doesn't it.
YEP, I totally agree, and I'm a huge KR fan!!!!
Some people have accused me in the past of being a bit blind when it comes to Kimi, but that's SO NOT TRUE!!! Of course I wish he had won, I'm his fan, but it's crystal clear that Kimi doesnt have Michael's abilities to built a team around him or make a team better. That's why Kimi doesn't belong in Michael's league. MS is simply one or two levels better than KR (imo).
I do hope KR can challenge for the title this season. It indeed might be his one and only best chance, cause Ferrari looks really strong.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Franco Fangio @ Mar 16 2007, 05:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>True, Kimi never had the best car, but can you tell what that has to with MS being one of the greatest ever?? I'm a kimi fan, I wish he won at least one title, but so far, it wasnt meant to be. Hopefully he will win the title one day, cause I think he is champion worhty.

When I said Fisi performed ''bad, i didnt mean he's a bad driver. But it is a fact that he performed ''bad'' compared to FA. That was my point. I never thought Fisi was a bad driver, I think he's good actually, better than average maybe, but not a winner.

So, MS didn't win that many races in inferior car? Hmmm..ok, I think that goes for almost everyone, that's just f1, especially nowadays, if you dont have the best car, it will be hard. That's just the way it is.
Actually MS proved how good he is when he DID drive an inferior car. For example 96, ferrari was CRAP, he still managed to win 3 races I think.
In 97 the Ferrari was inferior to Williams, MS won races that season and he almost beat JV to take his 3rd title. So, dont even start about MS not winning a lot when he had an inferior car. Cause that's just not true man. Ow, I've seen dvds of MS driving the benetton in 92 and 93. He didnt have the best car back then, Williams was superior!!!! Still MS managed to win races in both 92 and 93. Especially Spa 92 was great. Dunno if you've seen it. So, MS also proved during his F1 career that he WAS ABLE to win races while having an inferior car.

1992 was a very impressive win at Spa and he did well in 1993 - 4th in WDC behind SENNA, Prost and Hill but obviously not enough to even classify him as a great never mind the best

1997 Schumi did well to be that competitive but in my opinion Villeneuve was overrated and his williams teammate Frentzen was simply ......

Jerez 1997 was another example of Schumacher cheating though!

How can the best driver ever be a cheat?
- how do we know that he didn't cheat at over times and ferrari have either bribed the FIA to get round it or he has simply got away with it!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Franco Fangio @ Mar 16 2007, 05:10 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Yeah, exactly!
YEP, I totally agree, and I'm a huge KR fan!!!!
Some people have accused me in the past of being a bit blind when it comes to Kimi, but that's SO NOT TRUE!!! Of course I wish he had won, I'm his fan, but it's crystal clear that Kimi doesnt have Michael's abilities to built a team around him or make a team better. That's why Kimi doesn't belong in Michael's league. MS is simply one or two levels better than KR (imo).
I do hope KR can challenge for the title this season. It indeed might be his one and only best chance, cause Ferrari looks really strong.
Raikkonen has supposedly said that he's leaving F1 in 3 years so it would be nice for one to take a title in that time and I really do wish he does. After that, Button is gonna take the title!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Alex @ Mar 16 2007, 05:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Raikkonen has supposedly said that he's leaving F1 in 3 years so it would be nice for one to take a title in that time and I really do wish he does. After that, Button is gonna take the title!

Yeah when i heard that from Kimi i couldn't believe it coz he is what 26ish now so he would only be less than 30 when he retires which is very early although he will have made plenty of money by then so why not retire early!

Back to the subject with Schumacher - the original question was cheat or best driver ever. THE ANSWER IS CHEAT!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Valentino Is God @ Mar 16 2007, 05:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Yeah when i heard that from Kimi i couldn't believe it coz he is what 26ish now so he would only be less than 30 when he retires which is very early although he will have made plenty of money by then so why not retire early!

Back to the subject with Schumacher - the original question was cheat or best driver ever. THE ANSWER IS CHEAT!
Correct. <u>BUT</u> he's a living legend and I respect his career in F1!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Alex @ Mar 16 2007, 05:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Correct. <u>BUT</u> he's a living legend and I respect his career in F1!

I respect his career and congratulations to him on his success however it came to him!

But why will he be remembered as a legend?
For the controversey or the racing?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Valentino Is God @ Mar 16 2007, 05:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I respect his career and congratulations to him on his success however it came to him!

But why will he be remembered as a legend?
For the controversey or the racing?
In all respect to him he's mainly gonig to be remembered for his successful career in Formula 1. Fine, I hate him, you hate you but we've just got to accept it now and move onto the new era.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Alex @ Mar 16 2007, 05:25 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>In all respect to him he's mainly gonig to be remembered for his successful career in Formula 1. Fine, I hate him, you hate you but we've just got to accept it now and move onto the new era.

Who did you support in the past and who do you support now by the way?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Valentino Is God @ Mar 16 2007, 05:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>But why will he be remembered as a legend?
For the controversey or the racing?


He will be remembered as a racing legend and a true great of hte sport, but there will always be a few who wish to focus largely on the negative. I think it comes down to a divide between the people who see the controversial stuff as just plain cheating. And those who see it as a desire to win at all costs and try everything he can untill its all over. At the end of the day, the issue lies with the officials, if the moves were really just cheating, they would have been acted on. Overall i think he will be remembered for what he did for the sport as a whole, and for what he achieved with ferrari.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Valentino Is God @ Mar 16 2007, 05:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Who did you support in the past and who do you support now by the way?
Past - (Very young kid, born-9/10yrs old). = Michael Schumacher
Now - Kimi Raikkonen!
After - Jenson Button (want Kimi to win his deserved title 1st though!)

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Valentino Is God @ Mar 16 2007, 06:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>1992 was a very impressive win at Spa and he did well in 1993 - 4th in WDC behind SENNA, Prost and Hill but obviously not enough to even classify him as a great never mind the best

1997 Schumi did well to be that competitive but in my opinion Villeneuve was overrated and his williams teammate Frentzen was simply ......

Jerez 1997 was another example of Schumacher cheating though!

How can the best driver ever be a cheat?
- how do we know that he didn't cheat at over times and ferrari have either bribed the FIA to get round it or he has simply got away with it!
In 93 MS finished in 4th position, BEHIND SENNA
In 92 MS finished in 3rd position, IN FRONT OF SENNA
Yes, MS finished in 4th position in 93, that actually was a good result for someone driving the benetton that year in only his 2nd FULL F1 season. I think those early years already showed that MS had an extraordinary talent. What did you expect MS to do then?? To win lots of races in 93 while having an inferior car. Williams was the team to beat in 92 and 93. I would say MS did a great job those years. To me it only proves he is indeed one of the greatest.

97: I also think JV is overrated, but you asked me about MS winning races in an inferior car. That season Ferrari was clearly inferior to Williams. So I only pointed out MS won races and challenged for the title when he didnt have the best car. Indeed, Jerez was one of those ''dirty things''. That was just sad!! Not much to say about that. MS was wrong!!! What would you call his ''cheating'' moments during his whole F1 career then?? Besides the obvious: Adelaide 94, Jerez 97 and Monaco 06 quali.
And i dont wanna hear things like '' how do we know that he didn't cheat at over times and ferrari have either bribed the FIA to get round it or he has simply got away with it!
I wanna talk about FACTS, not about what might happened have or not. We dont have proof of these things, to even think it might have happened is ridiculous imo.
People also should stop talking about the ''illegal TC''. Fact is, he wasn't punished for that, if it was illegal, if it was wrong, he should have been punished. That didnt happen!!!!!
When I'm talking about ''cheating'' I also don't mean Austria 2002, cause Ferrari asked RB to let MS win, and Rubinho did exactly that. That wasnt cheating from Michael's side. It was really SAD to see it happen though!!

So, tell me, when did he cheat???? (besides the things I've already mentioned..adelaide, jerez, monaco)

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Mar 16 2007, 06:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>He will be remembered as a racing legend and a true great of hte sport, but there will always be a few who wish to focus largely on the negative. I think it comes down to a divide between the people who see the controversial stuff as just plain cheating. And those who see it as a desire to win at all costs and try everything he can untill its all over. At the end of the day, the issue lies with the officials, if the moves were really just cheating, they would have been acted on. Overall i think he will be remembered for what he did for the sport as a whole, and for what he achieved with ferrari.
Yep..I will certainly remember him like that. And I'm really glad to have seen him race. I can definitely say I've seen one of the best ever in F1 history!!

I think you're right about the difference in people's view on his ''controversy''
Some keep focusing on the negative things. I dont think of MS as a cheater. To me he is a true champion who at times (a few times!!!!!!) crossed the limit because he wanted to win at all costs. That made him great imo!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Alex @ Mar 16 2007, 06:39 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Past - (Very young kid, born-9/10yrs old). = Michael Schumacher
Now - Kimi Raikkonen!
After - Jenson Button (want Kimi to win his deserved title 1st though!)
Hey Alex, just a question..why do you hate MS???
You said your father hated him, but you're not going to tell me you started hating him because your father did??
Actually I never understood how people could ''hate'' a certain driver.

I think MS worst moment was the monaco 2006 qualifying move, i was very disapointed to see him do that, but considering the split second he used to make that decision, i wont think less of him in the greater scheme of things. I also think the Jerez 97 move is way blown out of proportion (please feel free to detail why it was so bad), The 94 move is a bit iffy i must admit, but it must have been a very tough situation to be in.

List of when he cheated:

1994 - Can't remember the races but he was banned for 2 GPs for it so must have done something wrong!

1994 - Adelaide obviously!

1997 - Tried to take out Villeneuve at Jerez and was correctly disqualified from the championship.

1998 - Argentina. Barging Coulthard off the track.

1998? - Winning the British Grand Prix in the pitlane after taking a 10 second penalty AFTER finshing the race.

2000 - Spa. Schumacher barged Hakkinen while the cars were travelling at 200mph.

2001 - Nurburgring. Trying to push his BROTHER in to the wall off the start line.

2003 - Silverstone. Weaving to force Alonso on to grass at 190mph.

Can't remember what year but there was a race where his car was found to be illegal in some way so the stewards said to ferrari measure this part yourselves and then bring it back. Ferrari take the part away measure it and suddenley a week later and the next GP it is within the regulations! and Schumi gets away with it. Do you think they might have changed the part!

2002,3 - team orders at Austria where Rubens let him through in 2 consecutive years for a 2nd and 1st place - not cheating but hardly sporting or neccessary when their car is the best anyway.

2006 - Monaco - blocking the track.

Some of these are cheating, the Barrichello one is just bad sportsmanship and some of them are dangerous driving which is basically cheating as he is gaining through putting others at disadvantage and in danger.

SO IS HE A CHEAT? YES

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Mar 16 2007, 06:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I think MS worst moment was the monaco 2006 qualifying move, i was very disapointed to see him do that, but considering the split second he used to make that decision, i wont think less of him in the greater scheme of things. I also think the Jerez 97 move is way blown out of proportion (please feel free to detail why it was so bad), The 94 move is a bit iffy i must admit, but it must have been a very tough situation to be in.
Actually I agree with you man. I also think his worst F1 moment was Monaco 06. I mentioned these 3 situations because usually they end uo naming these situations when I ask them when MS actually ''cheated''. I guess people are free to feel less of MS because of these things, but to me, it will not change how I think of MS the driver.

Monaco was the lowest point of his career having to resort to that!

How he has cheated (and this is only up to mid 2003!):

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport...one/5024532.stm