Michael Schumacher

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Orrmate @ Mar 17 2007, 09:50 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Your kidding, right? Please tell me you are not serious..

Maybe ive misunderstood you, but you seem to be saying that cheating is just winning at all costs. I find that disgusting. There is a line. There is the desire to win, and then there is cheating. All cheating does is take away your dignity.

You say these drivers who cheat makes them 'real' winners. To be honest, I find that a little insulting. Did Jim Clark or Juan Manuel Fangio cheat? No. You go on and say they aren't real winners, because that really is .........

Just because someone doesn't cheat when they compete (which includes me, which is why Im a bit pissed off right now), it doesn't mean they aren't real winners. Far from it, infact.
I guess you indeed misunderstood me, that's not the first time I guess..
I never said that when people ''cheat'' they are real winners. I also didn't say that when they dont cheat they're not real winners. I guess I have a hard time trying to explain what I mean then..I meant to say that, for example Senna and MS, crossed the line a few times in their ow so fantastic career. They weren't always the most ''fair'' ones, not because they had the intention to cheat, but because they had the desire to win..win at all costs (and yeah, in their cases that meant sometimes crossing the limit!!). I only meant to say that I do have respect for the fact they only cared about winning..and nothing else than doing exactly that!

You know, I really NEVER said that cheating is what it takes to be a real winner, cause obviously that is ........!!!!!!!!

Hope you understand what I meant this time..

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Franco Fangio @ Mar 17 2007, 09:10 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I guess you indeed misunderstood me, that's not the first time I guess..
I never said that when people ''cheat'' they are real winners. I also didn't say that when they dont cheat they're not real winners. I guess I have a hard time trying to explain what I mean then..I meant to say that, for example Senna and MS, crossed the line a few times in their ow so fantastic career. They weren't always the most ''fair'' ones, not because they had the intention to cheat, but because they had the desire to win..win at all costs (and yeah, in their cases that meant sometimes crossing the limit!!). I only meant to say that I do have respect for the fact they only cared about winning..and nothing else than doing exactly that!
You can still only care about winning and not cheat.

I don't understand how you can be happy with a victory that was earnt through cheating, because its hollow. I could never accept it because deep down I would know I hadn't earnt it, I'd know I had won it unfairly. I lost a lot of respect for Ayrton and Micheal in these cases.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Alex @ Mar 17 2007, 09:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Button could of won numerous races by now if cheating was part of the game. It's not part of his nature where it is Schumacher's. I wouldn't like a cheated victory, but a hard worked one!
Exactly, but it would be hollow, and I don't think it would be accepted by his fans in Britain.

I suppose it depends on the drivers view of things. I think personally you must do everything to win, but doing it fairly and being able to look back on it with pride is equally important. I'm not sure if Schumi will be so proud of '94 now...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Orrmate @ Mar 17 2007, 10:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>You can still only care about winning and not cheat.

I don't understand how you can be happy with a victory that was earnt through cheating, because its hollow. I could never accept it because deep down I would know I hadn't earnt it, I'd know I had won it unfairly. I lost a lot of respect for Ayrton and Micheal in these cases.
I guess so many people did..
The thing is, I do understand you, but despite these things I still think of Ayrton and Michael as GREAT winners and GREAT champions. They obviously weren't perfect (but then again nobody is..), but also these things made them stand out from the rest. They were drivers who were looking for the limit, and a few times they crossed that limit. Should I see them as cheaters because of that? NO, definitely not. They both were great champions.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Franco Fangio @ Mar 17 2007, 09:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I guess so many people did..
The thing is, I do understand you, but despite these things I still think of Ayrton and Michael as GREAT winners and GREAT champions. They obviously weren't perfect (but then again nobody is..), but also these things made them stand out from the rest. They were drivers who were looking for the limit, and a few times they crossed that limit. Should I see them as cheaters because of that? NO, definitely not. They both were great champions.
But the cheating didn't make them great champions. Far from it, it detracted from their status, because many people didn't look at them with as much respect. It did make them stand out from the rest, but in a bad way, at least as far as I'm concerned.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Orrmate @ Mar 17 2007, 10:32 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>But the cheating didn't make them great champions. Far from it, it detracted from their status, because many people didn't look at them with as much respect. It did make them stand out from the rest, but in a bad way, at least as far as I'm concerned.
The cheating indeed didn't make them great champions, the will/desire to do everything to win made them one of the greatest ever. For sure they had the talent, cause only determination won't do the trick. They had the right combination, they both were extremely talented, and they both cared about winning, winning at all costs. That made them stand out, that made them great champions. That's what people will remember about them.

Senna was a great champion.

Michael was a great cheat.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Valentino Is God @ Mar 18 2007, 05:09 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Senna was a great champion.

Michael was a great cheat.
Ok mister..if you say so

I still would say both of them were GREAT champs!

Yeah whatever!

Senna was the greatest of the greats.

Schumacher was the greatest of the cheats.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Valentino Is God @ Mar 18 2007, 05:34 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Yeah whatever!

Senna was the greatest of the greats.

Schumacher was the greatest of the cheats.
Ah..ok

But you do realise that GOD himself thinks MS is absolutely amazing. I actually believe GOD is a MS fan

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Franco Fangio @ Mar 18 2007, 05:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Ah..ok

But you do realise that GOD himself thinks MS is absolutely amazing. I actually believe GOD is a MS fan

Valentino could hardly have said MS was a cheat and still expect to be given more testing opportunities with ferrari.

GOD could have been taking MS place this year but decided bikes were better...thankfully, Moto GP without Valentino is unthinkable.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Valentino Is God @ Mar 18 2007, 06:35 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Valentino could hardly have said MS was a cheat and still expect to be given more testing opportunities with ferrari.

GOD could have been taking MS place this year but decided bikes were better...thankfully, Moto GP without Valentino is unthinkable.
I actually think he was honest when he said he had great respect for Michael Schumacher. I don't think he lied about that. GOD never lies

I don't think he would have replaced MS, Ferrari already had their eyes set on Kimi, I think they already signed a contract a while ago. IF he would have replaced someone at Ferrari it would have been Felipe. Anyway, I'm glad Vale decided to stay!!!! He makes Motogp even more interesting! Let's hope he will win this season!!

R&R for the title!!!!

Rossi and Raikkonen would have been a great line up for ferrari although Massa looks strong.

It is definitely better to have Valentino in Moto GP though!

Rossi for Moto GP title.

Raikkonen or preferably Hamilton for F1 title.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Franco Fangio @ Mar 18 2007, 04:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>The cheating indeed didn't make them great champions, the will/desire to do everything to win made them one of the greatest ever. For sure they had the talent, cause only determination won't do the trick. They had the right combination, they both were extremely talented, and they both cared about winning, winning at all costs. That made them stand out, that made them great champions. That's what people will remember about them.
So, to look at your earlier posts, if a driver isn't willing to cross the line in order to win, does that mean his determination or desire is any less? Because I don't think it does..

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Valentino Is God @ Mar 18 2007, 06:58 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Rossi and Raikkonen would have been a great line up for ferrari although Massa looks strong.

It is definitely better to have Valentino in Moto GP though!

Rossi for Moto GP title.

Raikkonen or preferably Hamilton for F1 title.
I agree man!!!
It would be so weird to not have Valentino in Moto GP. I'm glad he decided to stay a bit longer.

I would go totally insane if Kimi would win the title this season. I'm waiting for it to happen since the moment I first saw him in 2001. I always had the feeling he had something special. People were kinda sceptical when he entered F1, but he showed them all he definitely belongs in F1. After being a runner-up twice, it will hopefully happen this time.

I'm sure Lewis will win titles in the future! This year it's all about the experience and hopefully beating FA a few times..

Something else, do you think Rossi will ever make the switch to F1?
And if so, do you think he would do a good job?
I would love to see him in F1 one day, but for the moment I'm glad he's still competing in moto gp.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Orrmate @ Mar 18 2007, 08:25 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>So, to look at your earlier posts, if a driver isn't willing to cross the line in order to win, does that mean his determination or desire is any less? Because I don't think it does..
And I guess you're right, cause it doesn't necesarrily mean a driver's determination or desire to win is any less. It really depends on the person/driver. Of course a driver can be really determined without crossing the line..

Just saying that AS and MS both crossed the line a few times in their career, maybe not (always) with the intention to ''cheat'', but that's the thing with driving on the limit, you can cross it a few times and end up taking others off the track in a dangerous way.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Franco Fangio @ Mar 18 2007, 07:39 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>And I guess you're right, cause it doesn't necesarrily mean a driver's determination or desire to win is any less. It really depends on the person/driver. Of course a driver can be really determined without crossing the line..

Just saying that AS and MS both crossed the line a few times in their career, maybe not (always) with the intention to ''cheat'', but that's the thing with driving on the limit, you can cross it a few times and end up taking others off the track in a dangerous way.
I suppose it depends on the driver. For me winning by cheating isn't really a win, because as I said earlier, its hollow. But to some drivers they don't seem to care, which is maybe a little arrogance. Hamilton for example, seems very driven to win, but is quite a clean driver from what ive seen so far, and doesnt cross the line. It all depends on who you are as a person.

I agree that these things can happen when you are driving on the limit, its part of racing. But its how you handle it after. Look at DC today. He cocked up, he admitted it, and apologised to Wurz. True sportsmanship. That for me means it isnt cheating. If they dont apologise it seems to suggest they did it on purpose, like Senna on Prost in '90, and like what Vale did to Sete in 2005. That to me is cheating. And that is essentially the difference.

Have to disagree with all this cheating talk. If a driver/rider is in a situation where he is behind and a small opertunity preseants itself, some would hold back because of the risk of it not working out. Others (like MS) would be so fixed on winning, and find the idea of letting the opertunity slip by so un-acceptable that they will try anyway with total comitment to reach their goal. If it works out then great, if it doesn't then he knows he tried his all, and can work hard to improve. Then sometimes the situation comes off in the unfortunate case of a coming together or controversial move, and although that case is not ideal, the two potential results are the same.

I don't believe that MS ever intended to cheat as such, but mearly drew the line beyond where other driver would, which is why somebody like me would say his desire to win was so admirable.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Mar 18 2007, 08:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Have to disagree with all this cheating talk. If a driver/rider is in a situation where he is behind and a small opertunity preseants itself, some would hold back because of the risk of it not working out. Others (like MS) would be so fixed on winning, and find the idea of letting the opertunity slip by so un-acceptable that they will try anyway with total comitment to reach their goal. If it works out then great, if it doesn't then he knows he tried his all, and can work hard to improve. Then sometimes the situation comes off in the unfortunate case of a coming together or controversial move, and although that case is not ideal, the two potential results are the same.

I don't believe that MS ever intended to cheat as such, but mearly drew the line beyond where other driver would, which is why somebody like me would say his desire to win was so admirable.
Thats the difference, its if you intend to do it. And unfortunately, I think alot of times MS intended to cheat.