Melandri IS done at Ducati.

Loris also said that the Ducati was very tricky to set up, and that if you got it right it was good, but if you couldn't get it right it was almost impossible to ride.

I have also read somewhere that Stoner asked that the bike be set up a certain way, much to the astonishment of the engineers. But he produced the results, so they listened to him. There is also the article about Burgess and Rossi setting up the Yamaha to be more like the Ducati with the Bridgestone tyres. Rossi also had to change his style to suite the new setup and tyres.

Loris to Suzuki and his steadier results. The 'zuk has a reputation of being easy to get up to a reasonable speed, but then it plateaus and nothing more is available.

So they say, anyway.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (sarto @ Jun 25 2008, 11:58 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Loris also said that the Ducati was very tricky to set up, and that if you got it right it was good, but if you couldn't get it right it was almost impossible to ride.

I have also read somewhere that Stoner asked that the bike be set up a certain way, much to the astonishment of the engineers. But he produced the results, so they listened to him. There is also the article about Burgess and Rossi setting up the Yamaha to be more like the Ducati with the Bridgestone tyres. Rossi also had to change his style to suite the new setup and tyres.

Loris to Suzuki and his steadier results. The 'zuk has a reputation of being easy to get up to a reasonable speed, but then it plateaus and nothing more is available.

So they say, anyway.
This sounds about right to me. I focused on the quote from suppo because if he is accurately quoting them elias and melandri don't seem to think what stoner does on the ducati is straightforward or easy.

My view is both that casey is a rather good rider and that there is something unusual and somewhat specific about his interaction with the bike. Being 0.5 - 1.0 second a lap faster than loris capirossi could conceivably be a reflection of extreme riding talent, but 3 seconds a lap faster than marco melandri would require him to be superhuman. He was 2 seconds a lap faster than marco from the start before marco gave in to despair as he seems to now have done. You can't argue as I have in the past that casey was held back by his equipment earlier in his career, and simultaneously hold that he has extreme talent to that degree.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ThePhorest @ Jun 25 2008, 09:28 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Why can only Stoner make it run up front?

The telemetry says it's his "commitment". In other words he sets the bike up to the best of his abilities then rides it with complete abandon.

He uses the engine in rev ranges that would be unsuitable without the electronics dialed perfectly, he hucks himself off of the side of the bike to get it to the ground, he hangs on for dear life when the bike starts wagging its tail.

He has complete faith in his setup. When the GP8 doesn't work, fight-or-flight kicks in and he throws raging tantrums.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Jun 26 2008, 12:52 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>The telemetry says it's his "commitment". In other words he sets the bike up to the best of his abilities then rides it with complete abandon.

He uses the engine in rev ranges that would be unsuitable without the electronics dialed perfectly, he hucks himself off of the side of the bike to get it to the ground, he hangs on for dear life when the bike starts wagging its tail.

He has complete faith in his setup. When the GP7 doesn't work, fight-or-flight kicks in and he throws raging tantrums.
I pretty much agree. He seemed to have 2 speeds last year, 11/10 and about 7/10. He actually looked more ragged when he rode for position in a few races last year than when he was pushing on the limit. He himself said earlier this year that his problem with the GP08 was that it was unpredictable and not consistent in its behaviour from lap to lap.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Jun 26 2008, 01:52 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>The telemetry says it's his "commitment". In other words he sets the bike up to the best of his abilities then rides it with complete abandon.

He uses the engine in rev ranges that would be unsuitable without the electronics dialed perfectly, he hucks himself off of the side of the bike to get it to the ground, he hangs on for dear life when the bike starts wagging its tail.

He has complete faith in his setup. When the GP8 doesn't work, fight-or-flight kicks in and he throws raging tantrums.

thats the best explanation i've read.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SackWack @ Jun 25 2008, 05:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I think that you missed my point in my post. I never said that he couldn't ride it. I said middle of the pack races. His win was the wet dry thing so I aint going to say he rode the .... out of his bike. You account for 4 races, what about the other races where was he. The next question is where was his teammate. I could go and dig up quotes from Loris last year saying he couldn't quite get the bike dialed in for himself, but you remember this right? I guess the more acurate way of saying it is, He couldn't ride the bike like his teammate. Same story this year for Ducati.

If you actually read my post its defending Loris. I think that Ducati got rid of Loris for the wrong reasons. We can look back now and agree that Loris was doing one hell of a job on that Ducati, specially after we see the likes of Melandri and Elias struggling.

I do see your point, and I to can look in the past to see what happened to Loris (injury and dnf's/crashes played a part) I believe he did finish mid pack in the points. The thing is that his 800cc win was Japan. Even after learning he lost his seat to Marco (and people still think MM is getting ignored by Ducati) Loris took the win on a drying track. Very very very impressive. So I just find it hard to swallow, someone labling him as a mid pack rider.

the only time this year the ducati looked stable was in donnington and stoner ....... all over rossi, all the other time the ducati looked like a buking bronco but stoner was still able to compete with rossi. no other rider could come close, or even within a minute of the winner in marcos case.

oh and rossi better look out coz hes got a 50+ point lead, stoner will do what rossi did to hayden in 06 and overrun hayden. oh except for the last race where rossi chocked and threw it away

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Traverser @ Jun 25 2008, 09:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I do see your point, and I to can look in the past to see what happened to Loris (injury and dnf's/crashes played a part) I believe he did finish mid pack in the points. The thing is that his 800cc win was Japan. Even after learning he lost his seat to Marco (and people still think MM is getting ignored by Ducati) Loris took the win on a drying track. Very very very impressive. So I just find it hard to swallow, someone labling him as a mid pack rider.
Travy, I don't think your're reading Sacky correctly. I think he is saying that he was in fact better than his results showed. I think he is making a case that Ducati wrongly thought that he was washed up and his mid-pack results were incorrectly ascertained to be a problem with the rider, not the bike. So he is saying, Ducati screwed up by letting him go. (Correct me if I'm wrong Sacky).

I also think Ducati made a mistake letting Capi go. They had a guy who in 06, may have won the championship for Ducati (he was leading the points and had excellent results before Sete decided to go bowling in Spain). This effectively ended Ducati's championship hopes. In 07, Loris had fair showings. Just think, if Melandri had a few podiums (as did Loris) we would NOT even be having this thread. So yes Travy, we are in agreement, Loris did do well enough on the Ducati. He remains a capable race winner (at the moment on an inferior machine).

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Jun 25 2008, 11:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Yeah Rog, you tell him. That is why Casey 'really' sucks--because he only can win on the Duc...

(I'm almost certain Stoner would have sucked on a Jap bike as you say, which would have proved he can only be fast on something that 'suits' him, unlike the other guy you are alluding to who was fast on brands that have 'only' managed to win almost 'all' of the titles in the last 30 years).
should read "has only won on the duc" get your facts straight jumkie

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ThePhorest @ Jun 25 2008, 06:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>OK, it's been bothering me for quite a while now. What the HELL is Stoner doing to make that thing go around like a rocket when Melandri and Elias, who are both FAST riders (see Melandri circa 2006, Elias in Portugal 2006) are making it look like a 50cc moped in most races. We now have a quote of Suppo saying that both Melandri and Elias are convinced that only Stoner can ride it.

Whats the secret? I reallly can't envision what it would be. Obviously I'm not a professional racer, but damn. How can there be some little trick that makes a 20 second+ difference in a race? It's mind boggling.

Why can only Stoner make it run up front?

Personally, I think it is pure bloody minded true racer commitment, a do or die attitude which he demonstrated on the Honda..........hence the crashes. Most riders will tell you the Ducati is a complete animal to ride Stoner has somehow got some kind of symbiosis with the Ducati, it is a rare thing and even if Melandri is booted off it, I can't see another rider taking up the poisoned chalice in a hurry. However, Stoner being on form at donington, doesn't make a world championship but if he's clicking with that bike, everyone needs to be worried.


XX Liz

Excellent discusion gentlemen.

Nothing definite about this in the italian press. I know you asked for a defense Jumkie but I've none.
Marco really seems to have hit the bottom and seems to lack the energy or motivation to get back on track.
There were some interesting comments from Rider X about marco this week. To put you in the picture, one of the italian channels runs a dedicated sports website on which one of the italian riders in the championship gives free frank and honest answers under the cloak of anonymity. Rider X was asked a bit about Marco in the latest interview, I'll try and look it up and translate it when I've a mo. Actually I'll try to translate the whole thing as it makes very interesting reading.
Marco's latest diary comments are pretty sad. The English version is not online yet but here's a bit of it...
As for the races there’s little to say, it seems China was the exception that confirms the rule. When things go wrong it triggers a mechanism I just can’t understand but I can see it tends to always happen.
Every time those close to you try to be of help, but often in order to show you they’re trying to help they tend to lose sight of reason why there is a problem. With bike racing it seems to be the done thing to always blame a lack of results on psychological problems, which seems to me to be an oversimplified and not at all well thought out analysis.
I think that in my sport the factors that influence a result are bike– rider – tyres and they’re worth 33 – 33 – 33. If one of the 3 is not working, then goodbye result!
Unfortunately people often take the wrong approach in trying to help , they tell you they’re seeing you unhappy and that you’re no longer convinced and things of that kind, and at that point if you have no problems they create them for you and convince you that you have them!
and again
When I first got onto that red bike I myself was the happiest man in the world, but I was never fast on it and I can assure you that in my head I was super hyped up!

I still think of Marco as a great rider. He just hasn't gelled with the Ducati at all though. Somehow it seems that on track his tyres are actually colder than when he leaves the box. Does not getting on with the Ducati make him a crap rider? I don't think so. I think it simply highlights how well Stoner has managed to do on it. It's tough being the obligatory Italian rider on a world championship winning bike and being at the bottom of the heap. The pressure on him is huge. And yet the press aren't tearing him apart (which they normally love to do) simply because it's clear that something is seriously wrong somewhere. Ducati I'm sure have done their best to help and he gets on well with Suppo, so 'quitting' isn't necessarily being a coward but simply doing the right thing by the team. And himself too let's face it because if this goes on for two years his career is over and every last one of you pointing fingers would probably do the same in his situation.

deffo!

Great posts!
As an incureble fan of Loris I'm happy to see so many of you giving him credit for his time at Ducati.
I think it is a great shame he couldn't stay.(Ducati can't afford two totally different bikes and in the long run probarbly no team can)

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bikergirl @ Jun 26 2008, 08:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I think that in my sport the factors that influence a result are bike– rider – tyres and they’re worth 33 – 33 – 33. If one of the 3 is not working, then goodbye result!
What I find most intriguing about this comment is no mention of the "team" factor. It could be in the translation, but "team" and "bike" are not the same. I would have thought that the "team" is also fundamental to a rider's success.

Nevertheless, it would be difficult to argue that the bike and tyres are rubbish!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (l13eaw @ Jun 26 2008, 01:30 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Personally, I think it is pure bloody minded true racer commitment, a do or die attitude which he demonstrated on the Honda..........hence the crashes. Most riders will tell you the Ducati is a complete animal to ride Stoner has somehow got some kind of symbiosis with the Ducati, it is a rare thing and even if Melandri is booted off it, I can't see another rider taking up the poisoned chalice in a hurry. However, Stoner being on form at donington, doesn't make a world championship but if he's clicking with that bike, everyone needs to be worried.


XX Liz
That's what I think to Liz. I was impressed with his rides at Honda (when he wasn't crashing of course). But to be fair, I was also impressed even when he did crash sometimes because of his 'pace'. Anyway, you make a great point, and I'm not too king on Hayden (as everyone seems to be calling for these days) to go to Ducati. If anybody, I think DePuniet would most benefit from a switch, but of course this is just highly speculative. Elias is a bit like DePuniet, and he is struggling too. So I think it just like you said, it Stoner having a unique ability to ride that bike.

marco is the most overated rider in motogp. cant beleive people still harp on about his handfull of races he won when rossi was on the shitbox yamaha and there was only hayden to contend with. hayden vs marco, marco the better rider.

marco and hayden vs the top 4 riders NOW, and marco is nothing!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Pinky @ Jun 26 2008, 08:09 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>marco is the most overated rider in motogp. cant beleive people still harp on about his handfull of races he won when rossi was on the shitbox yamaha and there was only hayden to contend with. hayden vs marco, marco the better rider.

marco and hayden vs the top 4 riders NOW, and marco is nothing!


"Re Rant PINKY"

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Pinky @ Jun 26 2008, 09:09 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>marco is the most overated rider in motogp. cant beleive people still harp on about his handfull of races he won when rossi was on the shitbox yamaha and there was only hayden to contend with. hayden vs marco, marco the better rider.

marco and hayden vs the top 4 riders NOW, and marco is nothing!
There's no such thing as an overrated rider in Grand Prix.

Marco and Nicky won races when GP bikes were meant for grown ups, 990cc was THE formula. Remember the days when you had to be careful when opening the throttle? When no matter how much TC you had, a 990 could still make you pay. My personal opinion is that all the TC riders have now coupled with a lowered capacity means that whacking open the throttle is a non-issue (speaking in relativity) whereas if you did that on a 990 or 500 you were going to find yourself on your backside.

Put some of these kids on 990s and I don't think they would find the instant success like they have on the 800s.